General

Stop! Stop Winnie the Pooh!

Spork Lover wrote:

Saw this on your profile and thought "wtf why not do a random (Insanely challenging 'cause weird style xD) mod :^)" Here we go!

Color coding

Red = Unrankable if unchanged
Black = Normal Suggestion
Blue = Strong Suggestion
Pink = Comment or a question

General

I saw the AR being discussed, and I agree that 9.7 is suitable because of the slow section lol :^)

Stop! Stop Winnie the Pooh!

00:00:838 (1) - I find it weird that this first slider is pretty, when the guitar is insanely distorted ;o (And you carry the "purposely mapped ugliness" onward as we get further into the map :3) I want to start off with a neat slider. The sound is jarring, but its very consistent, and i want to emphasize the difference in vocals between the metal/moe part so this doesn't fall into that category since it's a guitar.
00:31:049 (5,1) - This might sound stupid, but maybe consider making the overlap awkward on purpose? 'cause with the 1-anchored long slider, it looks surprisingly pretty xD (I guess something like could work idk lmfao http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5434789) I already used a bunch of overlaps before and after this, so i think putting anything here will become an unnecessary playability issue.
00:43:047 (4,5) - I donno if it's intentional that it isn't consistent, but maybe change sliders like these to 1/4's? (You do stuff like that on 00:48:192 (3) - ) Actually these are the consistent ones, the 1/4's is the inconsistent one that i only use once for emphasis. Usually the 4th repetition i'll do something more difficult.
00:50:710 (3,1,2) - Aren't some transitions like those very annoying to deal with playability-wise? I know it's probably intentional, but just giving a heads up ;o (Considering sharp angles with low spacing) Did something, but the angle is generally fine.
01:22:624 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - I love that you intentionally didn't make it symmetrical xD I'd maybe even go as far as to Ctrl+G 01:22:841 (2) - to make it even less symmetrical, so 01:22:624 (1,2) - ISN'T mirrored with 01:23:928 (3,4) - :3 I like it as is lol.
01:26:077 (7,1) - Switch NC my friend :3 Did some NC reworks here
01:27:791 (7,1) - Hi :3
01:29:505 (7,1) - Eh
^I'll stop rambling about those NC's lol

01:36:022 (5) - Doesn't the sound that you're trying to follow start on 01:35:915 (4) - ? I'm going for the vocal, not the guitar, apples to all below xP
01:37:630 (6,7) - Same
01:39:344 (5,6) - Same (This would be hard af to fix lmfao)
^ I'm mentioning those 3 because you actually follow that same exact sound on spots like 02:27:612 (1) - and 02:29:313 (1) - :^)

02:13:512 (2,3) - Oh my, this will cause some very awkward 100's I think because of the timing point lol (Maybe do some stacking with the slider or something idk D:) You're right. I'll just NC to remove the follow point so ppl are more aware.
02:33:171 (1) - I think this slider will 'cause some very messed up chokes on a sightread attempt, if it doesn't at least have a few red anchor points. Well, i ended up redoing a bunch of stuff here, so maybe this fixes what you mentioned lol. But its the same slider speed. There's now a flow-break so players are more visually aware of a shift.
02:40:244 (2) - Consider moving it a bit to make it asymmetrical :^) I'm good lol
02:49:895 (4) - I donno if NC'ing this will cause trouble :^) Good point.
02:53:686 (1,1,2) - This transition is really weird imo considering the angle. I think the angle is fine.
04:45:303 (1) - It's kinda pretty now, the map, so why is this heart still asymmetrical ;o It doesn't have to be symmetrical to be pretty xD

I hope my (Unexpected?) mod helped just a tiny bit with a few things lol xD Looking forward to see what people are gonna say about the map

Sonnyc wrote:

01:58:499 - Is this finish intended?

Uhh.. The quality of the dark combo part feels.. not good for me compared to your other maps.

huono_tuuri wrote:

Mazzerin mapping 4Head

Chara wrote:

oKAY

zoesan wrote:

However, when looking at mazzerin maps, every note feels like it was placed there for a reason.
This... well, this not so much.

Shiirn wrote:

Suggestions
Major suggestions
Unrankable issues

Well.... we did have an agreement.

Extraterrestrial

1. I am 90% sure that parts of this are inaccurately timed, especially the vocal-focused areas such as 00:35:790 - . On first pass I didn't see anything iffy but for that one section in particular, but maybe a couple of checks by... a few more knowledgeable and experienced modders would be a good idea. I'm almost always following instruments. The vocal focus will almost always also be on an instrumental note. I did change the timing slightly for sections where i wanted to follow vocals because with a track like this, understandably, some parts have a different offset based on what you want to follow. I basically asked pishi to time everything to instruments as that's how I would naturally map.
2. I understand that you intentionally made a lot of this map look messy to fit with the theme of the crazy bullshit going on. But there are many points where there are clear oversights as opposed to intentional departures from reason.
3. 00:00:946 - The whine doesn't actually start up until around here. Have the start of the slider be of lower volume and use alternating custom sets with increasing volume to cause the slidertrack to increase in volume over time as well? It's a neat technique. i want to keep it because the guitar whine or whatever you call it is already jarring enough. I don't think it requires any hitsounding. Rather, hitsounding would only detract from the sound by creating more noise.
4. 00:30:198 (3,4) - It's weird for these to be unstacked but 00:30:836 (3) - is manually stacked. Reduced stack leniency to 6
5. 00:31:903 (3,4) - somethingsomething crappy blanket, i do this all the time whatever Made it worse
6. 00:36:647 (1,2,3,4) - The blanketting for this pattern is off. While you're at it, maybe make the endings for 1 and 2 naturally sit in the middle of 3 and 4's slider tracks. Fixed slider 3, the rest are fine for me.
7. 00:38:997 (7) - This... isn't like you at all. Try putting it under 00:38:570 (3) - ? I want to create a second revolution in terms of flow. Basically a 5 point counterclockwise flow, then a 3 point, going into the second pentagon. The idea is to have the flow as well as the placement become more chaotic as the pattern spirals out of structure.
8. 00:40:066 (1,2,3) - Stacking makes this look a bit weird. Manually move it over so 1 is at x:103|y:264. Did a manual stack
9. 00:41:771 (1,4) - Stacking is off by a few pixels. Fixed
10. 00:45:734 (3) - This is clearly intentionally ugly, but it's so intentionally ugly it's just hideous and doesn't feel right at all. There's nothing special about the voice here to warrant it either. I dislike it too.
11. 00:56:650 (2) - Another one of those weird sliders. I know you're doing the whole "just sometimes they're fucking crazy!" thing but there are points where they fit and points where they don't. This is just random. It contributes to the general theme. I'm not going to normalize a slider just because it doesn't need to be weird .
12. 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Found one of the SR jacking sections. Brave new world was just DQ'd for having dumb back and forths where they didn't fit the music at all. Most notably, there are points in this section where they could arguably fit, namely, where the vocalist is having a seizure, but these jumps continue even when there are just the normal, boring drums are going and it just generally feels completely disconnected from the music. This particular section could really, really use a do-over. We just have to disagree then, because I think these fit perfectly well with the instruments. Actually, I would have made everything past 00:55:579 (1) - into single tap jumps, but I'm already doing that on quaver so i'll leave this be.
13. 01:29:719 (1,2,3) - bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbblankets. Like, if they were clearly meant to not be blankets, that'd be fine, but they're right at the level where they almost blanket so it looks like an oversight rather than intentional. Im glad theyre triggering people
14. 01:30:576 (4,5) - suddenly a psuedo-catmull? Sometimes linear nodes get separated into two bezier nodes if you're screwing around at the wrong timing snap. I think these sliders were intended to be linear. Of course, if you intentionally did that weirdo bug then it's fine. I did it myself on Routing. Yea its intentional xD.
15. 01:34:630 (1,1) - weird stacking issues caused by stacking under 01:35:808 (3) - ? Fixed with the stack leniency decrease
16. 01:36:772 (5) - If your mouse is randomly clicking things, please consult your doctor yes
17. 01:37:469 (4) - There actually isn't a beat here. Just... fyi, i guess? I like it. at 100% the vocals really sound like there are 1/4's so i didn't bother slowing down. Maybe the beat doesnt exist, in which case i'll just tastefully overmap because of the vocals at 100%.
18. 01:41:219 (4,1) - hahahaha fuck you. But really, this makes zero sense. at least 01:41:433 (4,1) - is A) circle->slider, and B) a new section so it actually fits. I'm told this is the hardest pattern in the game. It must deserve a place in the hardest map to be ranked.
19. 01:53:257 (1,2) - hngggh it's so ugly Thanks
20. 01:56:760 (1,5) - hngggh it's so ugly I got anti-blanket mods.
21. 02:13:512 (2) - Doesn't this slider fail to be a burai slider by like a pixel? ew. yes
22. 02:20:580 (5,1) - these aren't even like the others are. But i doubt anyone would notice. Doubt anyone will, but theres a hihat here too.
23. 02:26:362 - this section: uh yeah whatever lol whatever xD
24. 02:30:599 (9) - there is an actual new stanza here but whether it needs a new combo or not ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you had new combos and even a new pattern previously but you didn't do it here, and the musical patterning is the same.... holy fuck is shiirn about to say "consistency"? Heck, for the entire section, you had sets of 8,4 then 8,4, but the next two are just straight 12 long. Choose one and stick with it, it's a normal, typical 4-repeat pattern. This one's not so much an NC of rhythm but one of flow and intended movement. Where i don't NC, its just one consistent back/forth movement. Where i do NC< there is a change of flow/intended movement.
25. 02:44:346 (2,1) - overlap made specifically to trigger people, make it overlap more or don't overlap at all? nah i prefer to trigger people
26. 02:51:908 (1) - These will always play like ass, and I would be disappointed to see this map be ranked without changes to these sliders. I'm also 80% sure they're timed wrong, so even if a player is correctly bobbing their cursor they still might break because it's not accurate. I like them. You're prompted to play them, but here the player can move the slider up and down independently, without actually following the slider. Rather, if they just play it based on rhythm, it will feel like the sliderball is following their cursor instead, and thats why I really enjoy this. I can actually get 300's every time i play this using that mindset lol. The wave slider is useful for maintaining momentum going into the jumps too, because traditionally these repeat sliders are played with minimal movement due to slider leniency. You'll notice the length of the slider is about 0.75x the length of the jumps (for scaling reasons with the previous two sliders). It's done to allow players to wind up and prepare for the jumps.
27. 03:08:850 (3) - Remove whistle from end. Hmm... I like it though...
28. 03:25:972 (2,3,4,5) - These aren't accurate triangles and that's unlike you. If you don't care, proceed as usual. Rhombus pattern
29. 03:55:342 (1) - The drum whistles here don't seem to be following any particular instrument, nor are they following any particular pattern. Are they really random? Main melody here ;o. Which is basically "what i would hum"
30. 04:01:581 - From here on they're fine.
31. Cute "S T O P" you got there.

In summary, the map is fairly okay, but poses three significant issues of contention:

1. The jump section starting at 00:58:150 - and ending at 01:02:466 -

It doesn't seem to follow any sort of musical pattern within the song whatsoever, except that it's at the end of the chorus, such as it is. It doesn't follow the vocals (e.g. being much larger when the voices are gargling gravel, smaller when it's just drums), and following just the drums leads to weirdness as there are clear vocal stanza changes at 00:58:793 - and 00:59:444 - and every 4th beat after that. Logically, the first one is the big problem - it starts on the third beat, not the fourth beat, so it throws off the entire thing because it means you can't do pretty 8-note sets anymore. But that's your job as the mapper to figure out; it's lazy to just throw down the most basic musical pattern that "sort of fits".


2. The back-and-forth sliders from 02:50:353 - to 02:55:353 - . Let's just ignore the completely pants-on-head retarded jumps after them.

As far as gimmicks go, it's an interesting one to have the player need to bounce their cursor back and forth in rhythm with a slider. But if you want to do that, make sure they're timed correctly. And given that the guitar and drums are audibly out of sync, this poses a significant problem: Namely, that the sliders are meant to follow the guitar strumming, but they follow the timing of the drums. There are several places where they are very out of sync, namely in spots such as 02:51:491 - , 02:51:741 - , 02:52:491 - , etc etc etc. It really sucks, but these should probably go back to the drawing board. Let me be clear when I say I really like the idea and concept of these sliders, but I don't think they can really be done well here. And finally,

3. A map that is intentionally incredibly ugly is still, in the end, incredibly ugly.

"Duh", you think. But it also means that you're intentionally forgoing what normally amounts to "quality control" and only serves to make you look like kind of a tool. I'm as much of a Big Fan of theming and intentionally going against the grain as far as simple aesthetics go, but this is kind of pushing it, especially since it will gain a lot of attention as an 8* potential map. This is largely just aesthetic. I'm confident my flow choice and rhythms are strong, whereas most "ugly" maps are ugly because they don't use well-supported rhythms or contain really harsh flows. Basically, in terms of clicking and moving, the map is done in the highest quality I am capable of.


Thanks for your time.

Spaghetti wrote:

lots of double posting y tho

Monstrata wrote:

Also, I like to play 8 star maps for 3 minutes and then have two minutes of 2.5 star mapping. So now you know at least one person who enjoys it .

Kayla wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

Also, I like to play 8 star maps for 3 minutes and then have two minutes of 2.5 star mapping. So now you know at least one person who enjoys it .

rank 26k. highest pp score 150pp on a 51 second 3.1 star DT map. likes playing 8 star maps for 3 minutes.
im sorry but do you even comprehend 8 stars? you can barely read 4.6 after 70,000 plays.

maybe the problem with you is you simply dont comprehend your own maps.
maybe thats why theyre bad. (except the delta triangle map, but thats unrankable too imo.)

Tassadar wrote:

rank 11k. highest pp score 200pp on a 3.62 star DT just over a minute long.
how can you fairly judge this map then? what gives you the right to say it's bad? you can't even comprehend it either.

I'm not saying rank matters - it's just by your own logic, you shouldn't be trying to form your own opinions. He's an incredibly experienced and knowledgeable mapper. You don't always need to be able to play it to comprehend it (though it is good if you can - but not necessary in every single case).

Kayla wrote:

Tassadar wrote:

rank 11k. highest pp score 200pp on a 3.62 star DT just over a minute long.
how can you fairly judge this map then? what gives you the right to say it's bad? you can't even comprehend it either.

I'm not saying rank matters - it's just by your own logic, you shouldn't be trying to form your own opinions. He's an incredibly experienced and knowledgeable mapper. You don't always need to be able to play it to comprehend it (though it is good if you can - but not necessary in every single case).

that 200pp play is a complete joke, that map is overweighted. i have better plays worth less.

i replied that way because he said he "played it and enjoyed it"
that is the only reason i brought up rank, because he said he played this map.
and yes i think you do actually need to atleast be 4 digits to understand 8.5 stars within ranking criteria. ive been rank 3k and i still think that 7 star maps are pushing it for ranking. 8.5 is just silly.

Tassadar wrote:

4 digits is way too low to understand 8.5 stars, and a tad too low to understand even 7 stars completely probably

squirrelpascals wrote:

Heya, decided to stop by and take another look at this map after seeing it got bubbled, because who can forget a map like this

hi

00:41:339 (5,1,2) - I don't feel like this plays well at all; at this speed; with 2's placement at least I feel like players will hold on the sliderhead of 1 causing sliderbreak-itis Fair enough. I moved 2 closer to 1's slider-end.

00:49:081 (1,2,3,4) - space 2 and 3 more? dont see why not True. changed the pattern here.

00:50:710 (3,1,2,3,4) - how does this flow make sense? It does...? It plays well for me. The flow is inward and creating cross shapes. It's a flow i use a lot in my jumps.

01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I feel like your putting all of your focus into the theme and ignoring flow. the sliders are ugly and all and that's fine but as a result the flow in this pattern is deficient. I use this pattern in the example below but it gets far worse at 02:26:362 This flow analysis is just wrong... Please consider the kicksliders as circles and analyse the movement based on that. you'll see the actual movement is a simple back/forth zigzag pattern. Sliders are calculated to be short enough to avoid ever slider-breaking and they are arranged so that the slider-ball is going in the same direction as the player's general movement direction too.



01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - I don't feel like a 280bpm stream jump would be very adequate even for exageration, just make eack 3,4 a kickslider or something Nah, i prefer the stream. I think it's quite fitting here after those kicksliders.

02:27:195 (1,2,3,4) - This flows so randomly and object placement is just haphazard This flows perfectly fine. I think you just analyzed the flow incorrectly...

02:29:099 (3) - with this specific sliderend being right next to the sliderhead I feel like this will call for a lot of sliderbreaks That won't happen though... slider-ends being next to slider-heads won't cause breaks, if anything it would prevent breaks because only sliderhead/ticks/tails are factored in to sliderbreaks... (take HW's Notch Hell map for example).

02:31:563 (2) and 02:32:206 (8) - make it flow down less, players are going to jump straight toward the next circle yet these sliders are directed otherwise, causing breaks n stuff Same as above, your flow analysis isn't accurate to how the patter will actually be played.


One other thing I feel needs work on this map with it's theme of ugliness is the difference between an ugly and awkward overlap. An overlap can play well but still not look pretty. This is for all the points listed below

00:32:117 (4,1,2) - 4 and 2, the flow here feels so confined and cramped imo Flow's fine to me... its a counterclockwise inward flow.

00:37:822 (3,2,7) - I don't see a reason not to place this where 00:38:463 (2) is besides ugliness; this is just very out of place from 00:38:463 (2,3,4,5,6) making it awkward Already explained this on Shiirn's mod, It's done for a second sharped flow revolution before the jumps spiral out of control and structure.

01:36:022 (5,1) - the way this slider dips curves downward after flowing upward The flow is fine here. actually it plays quite well... Also factor in slider-leniency too.

kickslider patterns at 01:38:058 through 01:39:451 - and 02:26:362 through 02:31:028 - see above mod for 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) . In the case of overlaps, i feel this happens because of the random spacing between each sliderhead. (Some of the patterns you use a gradual spacing increase between each; those overlaps have reasoning in them and thats fine) All slider-heads are visible, which is what's most important. I would say it's the only factor too because from the arrangement you can already see where all the sliders are pointing (their general direction anyways).

This is just a clutter: 01:38:808 (8,2) -


Just stated some general stuff. I tried to respect your maps theme as much as I could; sorry if I infringed it. I just feel like this map is still in lack of some fundamentals because of its focus. Also, this is my first time modding a map with such an sr (i dont think im the only one here tho) so sorry if i messed up in that manner.