Hello there

I'm not coming as a modder, mapper, or player.

I've been pretty a spectator of all events happening recently, and tried to have a critical eye on these. From them, I think we can start to Quietly think about some points and sources of drama/conflicts.

One of the most important topic I wanted to show to everyone, is to think about the evolution of mentality about mapping.
On this topic, there are globally two sides :
- Before was better, let's make the guidelines rules
- Let's do some changes, and do not mind the guidelines

I think each side has their argument. They are right on some things, and wrong on others.
(yeah yeah I'm running around the bush)

What I want to say, is things are evolving, keep this in mind. just look at some maps which are from 2008-2009, and looknowadays maps. they are different, admit it. Remember when some patterns were considered as unrankable? Some modders-mappers are still narrow minded, and should think about this.

However, there are still some limits not to cross and some constraints to respects. Sometimes, on both sides, we should think of the reaction of the person talking to you. Generally (GENERALLY) people are still trying to help, or make your map as good as possible, trying to stay within the guidelines, etc etc. Do not be a douche :/ . As the mappers, it's good to be creative, but keep in mind that ranked =/= Art, etc etc, common discussion.

You can try to insert some new things, that can be approved or not be approved (for the records, using some things to nearly trick the player is not a good idea for ranking. It may be fun, but not matching the ranking criteria). Making things evolve/change is good, but trying to enforce a big change that is not yet in the minds is not a good idea.

Imagine what would be said in 2007 if you proposed a 2010 map? "Holy shit that is difficult, I'm not sure I can rank this, it's well made but I'm not sure that can be ranked, I'd remove all these, these..." etc.
The mapping is evolving slowly. slowly but surely (I hope).

Do not forget (for both sides), guidelines are there for no abuse of some points (if a map has more than 3 slider speeds, there has to be a reason, it must flow, being natural, with warnings if necessary, etc etc.). A map within guidelines is rankable, but it's not because it's out of them that's it isn't a good and rankable map. I am not encouraging people to break the guidelines

I still think there should be some open space to discuss about kinds of "new" patterns, when they appear somewhere, where we could Quietly discuss of it, and not let dramas happening like I've seen so many times.

About constraints, there has been some constraints set. Like the red lines thingy, or the ninja spinners. Avoid breaking them, because seriously, it's an obvious source of drama, etc.

Also, I would like you to think about some behaviour one or other have. It's supposed to be a community, don't be a douche :/ (copy pastaaaaa)
I've seen some people being completely closed to comments, people abusing of their position, let's try to keep things in a normal way...


People will say that I'm trying to convince you to see an ideal world. I know that doesn't exist. but let's try to go for something close to it.


tl;dr : Hey let's be friends /o/


NB. I wrote this from my own, without anyone validating or whatever.

Please do not just post to say things like "I was here" or irrational comments. if you post here, let's keep it to comment on a certain point quietly, or to add something. We're not here to discuss about a certain guideline or something, I just want everyone to think about the evolution of community.

Thanks.

Now I should return to work.

What should happen (and IIRC it's in the works), which would resolve the majority of drama, would be splitting guidelines and rules. Guidelines are there for different reasons, and some it's definately more ok to break than others.

For example, it's fine to break the more than 3 sliderspeeds guideline if it works well as that guideline was added to discourage slider speed abuse: so it's fine to use more if there is good reasoning behind it. However, it isn't fine to use red sections for slider speed changes because that was added for technical reasons: It causes small offset changes, breaks kiai, breaks main menu pulsing etc

Something I'd like to say too: have in mind, an style is not necesarily better than other styles. I've seen some people saying stuff like "these dudes have a style now?" or "god that style is completely lazy".

Really, it's getting old.

by the way, good thread.

Put my points here:

Most of the dramas start from a certain pattern/technique that used in a map (newly ranked or just in pending, whatever). one side say: hey that part is amazing let's rank it! and another side "what the... well it's just shit not anything creative/really nice/blablabla", ok then let's get a flame, hell yeah!

People, stop here, think about why there are people like "new patterns"? they suppport it just for popular? for fun? or they really like it? as Sushi said, it's a trend that mapping skills developed a lot, and hopefully will become better in the future. and plz, check 10 newly ranked maps, they're tend to be similar, compared to 10 maps ranked in 2008. well those maps would be really different, randomly pick 2 maps from the 10 and they can't be the same or even similar.

why? (hell yeah, WHY?)

If a pattern is used by multiple mappers, liked by players, it's getting to be a new technique that frequently used. otherwise, it would be abondoned. so let's get back to the point, why they support a "new pattern"? can we just wait for time to prove if it worth a rank/getting popular? why kill everything from the very beginning instead?

Maybe someone will jump up and say "i'm a experienced modder/mapper!, i have a larger right to say which map is good/bad!". but osu! is a player-based game, anyway.

So as a SUMMARY:
well, don't be that harry to destroy some patterns/techniques, wait for players to test and the trend will give out a result. a bubble and a rank is everything to get a map ranked. do you still believe "players just judge a map by its song"? that happens, true, but not as much as in 2008. don't getting that old and let's grow.

For modders, try to understand what the mapper wanted to do with his map, and try proposing things that would make the map better according to what the mapper wanted to do.

As for mappers, don't close-mindedly reject a mod because of how it is said, or because of the modder. Remember that modders only want to help, and don't always succeed in understanding how you made your map. That's why replying to mod posts explaining the reasons why you don't apply changes (or why you do) is a good thing. It helps the modder understand how you construct your map and makes further modding better.

only 3 thing i will say atm

1, TOTALLY agree with everything in sushi post
2, Odaril stole my saying <3 mod a map to make it better in the way the mapper wanted the map, not how you personally want the map ;p
3, drama, flaming and all that......aint it all pointless, say what you think yea, but do it in a calm manner, getting angry over these kinda things is not gonna get you anywhere

oh and mappers also need to understand that modders aint trying to kill them but help them, even if the mods do come over as mean, most modders dont mean it that way

Quite a pretty idea you got there, Sushi. I agree with most things that are out there.

There's this one I'm totally against, though: Hold sliders are now unrankable.

That's just...wrong. Hold sliders were always fun, and in all the maps I've played ( such as http://osu.ppy.sh/s/14868 , http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7349 and specially that hold slider that couldn't be ranked on this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/21841) I never experienced any problem with them. I still just DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE about why they're now unrankable.

Don't have that much to say, but to all mappers: Keep improving, and let's always make good maps.

To old mappers: Don't half map something, because that only make us ( specially me ) look down on your next maps.

To new mappers: Don't be stubborn. Take it slowly, and always try to improve your map a bit, getting new patterns and stuff. DON'T AIM FOR RANKED MAPS, but aim for good maps.

osu! needs more awesome maps, either if they're from new mappers or experienced mappers.

Sushi wrote:

We're not here to discuss about a certain guideline or something, I just want everyone to think about the evolution of community.

Besides, this kind of argument (it was in this map) is what is starting flame wars. please refrain thanks.

The only hold sliders that are unrankable are redlines ones. that has been said by peppy himself, that's all.

Now back to the topic.

to understand each other plz

Basically mappers and modders both have to be open-minded to things. That's basically it.
I have to admit that I have been close-minded about the usage some mapping techniques, but I'm trying (as is every modder, I hope) to open their minds to these new techniques.

Sushi wrote:

Sushi wrote:

We're not here to discuss about a certain guideline or something, I just want everyone to think about the evolution of community.

Besides, this kind of argument (it was in this map) is what is starting flame wars. please refrain thanks.

The only hold sliders that are unrankable are redlines ones. that has been said by peppy himself, that's all.

Now back to the topic.

I'm not encouraging people to flame this topic, Sushi.
I really think those are some good ideas, and just wanted to express my opinion about some guidelines, also my wish upon modders and mappers.

Anyways, yeah, if one would consider it flame-worthing, don't mind me.

Fuuko wrote:

To new mappers: Don't be stubborn.

I think that old mappers, and specially some very recognized mappers, are more stubborn than most new mappers. In fact it's been a while since I was an stubborn new mapper in comparison to an old mapper ._."

Just saying', because the fact that you have some ranked maps and that everyone thinks your maps are the best doesn't means that you have an special staus above others.
Breaking the rules/guidelines has the same risk for you than for a new mapper, and if a large group of people are saying than breaking that rule/guideline doesn't fit (even if your friends think it does) or brings technicall issues , then you should possibly lay back a bit and think "why are these people saying this doesn't fit?" "Can I do something else for it to make it look bettter?".

And modders, when you see something (be it a technique or a pattern or a hitsound or w/e) that doesn't fit and you think the mapper MUST change it, don't just come and say "This is ugly, change" or "This breaks the rules, change". Try to think why the mapper did that and try to come up with a solution to keep tha pattern/flow the mapper had in mind whihout breaking the guidelines.


Also, something Odaril said and I think it should have more attention...

Odaril wrote:

As for mappers, don't close-mindedly reject a mod because of how it is said, or because of the modder.

I've seen this so much lately...

By the way, I invite everyone (mappers, modders, players) to take part of this reflection.

I saw a lot of mappers complaining (as well as modders) so their opinion is important.

also shameless bump

Different players have different expectations of the game. Different mappers have different expectations of the game. Mapping means something different to everyone. (Personally, I can't stand tricky maps that try to confuse the player with intent, but some players like them.) What's key here is to listen.

Listen to many different modders and consider what they're saying. It's true for them. Making maps that will be enjoyed by many involves listening to mods, and figuring out something you can both appreciate. Never dismiss mods you disagree with as worthless. All this serves to accomplish is bad feelings on both parts. (Especially if the mods you disagree with came from a BAT, do you think they'll want to rank your map if you ignore everything they say?) Always offer an explanation for why you want to keep the things being modded. The modder will feel better about it, and you may discover in the process that their mod has more merit than you initially thought.

This street goes both ways. Modders should also be understanding when their mods aren't followed to a T. If the mapper has a logic they're following and your mods interfere with it, you can expect them to reject those mods, and you shouldn't feel bad.

My opinion on modding has always been "better out than in." Why stop a good map from becoming a great map? Every nazimod you can think of, you should go ahead and list. What modding is, after all, is giving the mapper tools to make their maps better.

I believe rules are good. The majority of beatmaps should be clean, well-behaved maps that keep within the guidelines. This allows the player to expect the game to behave in certain ways. Put more simply, maps should be readable. The occasional kooky rule-breaker is fine, but they shouldn't be the majority of maps. When a gimmick is overused, it loses its punch, and ceases to be fun or interesting.