A Hold feature.

KRZY

Former osu! Champion: OWC#3

Joined May 2009

Topic Starter

KRZY 2011-01-12T22:37:25+00:00

By this I mean we should have the hold slider back, only this time it will be a note and not a slider.

Every other rhythm game has it, and they play fantastically. I don't see why it couldn't be implemented in osu, especially when we used to have hold-sliders working perfectly fine until they were banned (due to good reasons, mind you).

Instead of deforming sliders to achieve this, I think we should actually have a "hold note," which would serve like a long note that you have to hold on to for a certain period of time before moving on to the next part.

As to displaying how long you must hold on, maybe display a little timeline of a sort, not unlike the hp-bar, that would begin as full when you press the note and slowly diminish until it disappears, upon when the hold note is over.

Personally, I think this type of implement would take the game to the next step.

Any ideas/suggestions?

those

3,136 posts

Joined November 2010

those 2011-01-12T22:45:57+00:00

Can this not be simulated (at least) by a slider that's really short distance?

RemmyX25

osu! Alumni

3,087 posts

Here since the beginning

RemmyX25 2011-01-12T22:49:31+00:00

inb4 a chain of no discussion and only

+1 Support!

which add nothing.

personally, i can see this being abused, with very little good coming out of it. music is mostly about flow, not sitting in one spot.

KRZY

Former osu! Champion: OWC#3

4,848 posts

Joined May 2009

Topic Starter

KRZY 2011-01-12T23:02:06+00:00

those wrote:
Can this not be simulated (at least) by a slider that's really short distance?

It's the chronical length that matters.

NotShinta

1,021 posts

Joined September 2009

NotShinta 2011-01-12T23:04:17+00:00

RemmyX25 wrote:
personally, i can see this being abused, with very little good coming out of it. music is mostly about flow, not sitting in one spot.

I wasn't sure how to put it into words, but this is exactly how I feel.

Don't we already have sliders and spinners for, like, this same thing? You can already do good things with them, and personally, I don't find it as fun, really, keeping my mouse on the same spot for a certain amount of time.

Meh, I think this will only be used badly more than well, but that's just me.

Lybydose

osu! Alumni

2,024 posts

Joined January 2009

Lybydose 2011-01-12T23:21:45+00:00

????

Don't mind me, just posting hold notes.

CheeseWarlock

osu! Alumni

1,185 posts

Joined May 2008

CheeseWarlock 2011-01-12T23:36:28+00:00

Well, they'd be nicer than the current implementation of hold sliders, but I don't really think they're necessary. Very few situations can make proper use of held notes, and we'd only be encouraging it.

ztrot

osu! Alumni

4,378 posts

Joined February 2008

ztrot 2011-01-13T02:27:06+00:00

what of the maps that can make use of hold notes? A lot of rhythm games use stop and hold notes quite well, I could see it working out fine.
Of course with anything that is new it will be abused at 1st, look at the new SV hasn't be a SV under 1.4 in quite some time due to the new max of 3.6 iirc. Giving this a shot wouldn't hurt anything. maybe make a test ver and have a good mapper show off it's uses or something along those lines

+1 support

Ephemeral

Inland Empire

3,945 posts

Joined April 2009

Ephemeral 2011-01-13T02:30:51+00:00

i 100% support this - hold sliders being unrankable due to technical issues makes sense in one aspect, but not having them at all makes no sense in another. having this properly implemented would add a new level of depth into beatmapping, especially if standard hitcircles AND slider start/ends can be adjusted to be hold beats.

Wishy

2,974 posts

Joined September 2010

Wishy 2011-01-13T02:58:57+00:00

This is a good idea, it'd be interesting to see how this could affect the gameplay (it'll feel weird to hold your click at a single circle at first I guess xd).

awp

osu! Alumni

11,869 posts

Here since the beginning

awp 2011-01-13T03:59:52+00:00

couple recommendations:

Hold notes must also be released in a certain timeframe. With a slider, you can click and never let go and clear the slider because the "musical flow" is in the movement. With a hold note, the accuracy should be evaluated by a hitwindow (onMouseDown) as well as a releasewindow (onMouseUp)

two UI designs in mind to prompt when to release:
thick outline around the hitobject (think Photoshop Stroke effect) that thins toward release
circular "HP-bar" that drains in a rotational "scanner-sweep" motion

guessing the object would also need a way of being differentiated at a glance from a standard hitcircle, like a unique approach circle

RandomJibberish

osu! Alumni

1,833 posts

Joined August 2009

RandomJibberish 2011-01-13T07:34:51+00:00

I think the abuse potential far outweighs the potential good uses for this. There are always going to be mappers that are using hold notes in every combo, using them where they don't fit, using them in the middle of combos etc. Just use a long slider or two beats, srsly, it isn't that bad

Lilac

Elite Mapper

1,515 posts

Joined December 2008

Lilac 2011-01-13T08:15:13+00:00

RandomJibberish wrote:
I think the abuse potential far outweighs the potential good uses for this. There are always going to be mappers that are using hold notes in every combo, using them where they don't fit, using them in the middle of combos etc. Just use a long slider or two beats, srsly, it isn't that bad

I disagree, saying this means that you don't believe in the modding system and that you can't trust other people to make sure they use it right. If there is abuse, it's stamped out otherwise it's not ranked.

It's simple as that. The abuse potential is greatly minimal if people mod them correctly.

Sallad4ever

2,917 posts

Joined October 2009

Sallad4ever 2011-01-13T08:27:27+00:00

+ support
if anyone use this badly there's bound to be someone who can use this perfectly and in case there are any map that abuse this, it's the modders job to find them and I'm sure that present MAT+ BAT are very capable in pointing that out

NatsumeRin

osu! Alumni

4,032 posts

Joined August 2009

NatsumeRin 2011-01-13T10:23:26+00:00

as a mapper i love this, totally support.

people plz:
red line hold sliders are unrankable because of TIMING CHANGES caused by that.
if people could know there's a hold slider they'll gladly to do so, need a poll or something to prove it?
check for this thread: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=31518

^48% people voted love the technique, in fact far more than many other techniques, people love it and would have fun.
then why not

Galkan

Global Moderator

2,023 posts

Joined September 2009

Galkan 2011-01-13T11:32:39+00:00

Wasn't it suggested and denied before?

RemmyX25

osu! Alumni

3,087 posts

Here since the beginning

RemmyX25 2011-01-13T13:45:17+00:00

Lilac wrote:
I disagree, saying this means that you don't believe in the modding system and that you can't trust other people to make sure they use it right. If there is abuse, it's stamped out otherwise it's not ranked..

The problem is, people tend to not listen to other peoples mods about what is and isn't rankable, and becomes one giant flame war. read any thread about a map that is unranked. you'll see what i mean.

yeahyeahyeahhh

osu! Alumni

2,850 posts

Joined December 2008

yeahyeahyeahhh 2011-01-13T14:00:22+00:00

I will let my name speak for this request.

Or something similar to http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5177

rust45

1,088 posts

Joined May 2009

rust45 2011-01-13T19:35:46+00:00

Lybydose wrote:

????

Don't mind me, just posting hold notes.

I lol'd

Anyway, I don't quite agree with this as you don't move the mouse at all and there was nothing like this in Ouendan and EBA. But I wouldn't mind it being implemented as long as it wasn't abused.

Shiro

Global Moderator

4,984 posts

Joined May 2009

Shiro 2011-01-13T20:05:04+00:00

Lybydose wrote:

????

Don't mind me, just posting hold notes.

I fucking laughed.

As for this, no. It was already said, the abuse potential is way too great, with most mappers being stubborn and refusing to fix what most modders point out as an issue, I don't see how to be optimistic about this.
Moreover, hold sliders pretty much break any kind of movement, sitting there waiting for a note to end. It will just cut the flow and make a map less enjoyable. Any slider can fulfill the purpose of a hold slider, and they don't break the flow nor the movement.

NatsumeRin

osu! Alumni

4,032 posts

Joined August 2009

NatsumeRin 2011-01-14T02:44:56+00:00

Odaril wrote:
Moreover, hold sliders pretty much break any kind of movement, sitting there waiting for a note to end. It will just cut the flow and make a map less enjoyable. Any slider can fulfill the purpose of a hold slider, and they don't break the flow nor the movement.

i fucking laughed.

pieguyn

2,020 posts

Joined May 2009

pieguyn 2011-01-14T04:57:46+00:00

Anyone who says "this is more likely to be abused than used well" must be forgetting that any maps like that won't get ranked in the first place... Even if the mapper doesn't follow the mod posts telling them to fix it, it won't be a problem because if it's really that bad the map won't end up ranked in the first place.

Anyway, I think it would fit better if it was just a slow slider like the original hold sliders, since both this and sliders need to be "held"... but if that really can't be done, I'll go ahead and support this. (Why not make it so you can put 0.25x inherited sections or something? o_o)

RandomJibberish

osu! Alumni

1,833 posts

Joined August 2009

RandomJibberish 2011-01-14T06:20:37+00:00

pieguy1372 wrote:
Anyone who says "this is more likely to be abused than used well" must be forgetting that any maps like that won't get ranked in the first place... Even if the mapper doesn't follow the mod posts telling them to fix it, it won't be a problem because if it's really that bad the map won't end up ranked in the first place.

Assuming the mapper thinks what they're doing improves the map, it can and will get ranked with a stubborn enough mapper. I'd give examples, but it'd probably do little but piss people off

Anyway, I think it would fit better if it was just a slow slider like the original hold sliders, since both this and sliders need to be "held"... but if that really can't be done, I'll go ahead and support this. (Why not make it so you can put 0.25x inherited sections or something? o_o)

Why does nobody ever recall that you already can by setting 2x for most of the map and 0.5 for the hold slider? :V

pieguyn

2,020 posts

Joined May 2009

pieguyn 2011-01-14T06:23:32+00:00

I know that, but then you can't use 2x sliders in the same map unless you somehow set a 4x inherited section.

And that still won't let you use 0.125x sliders...

RandomJibberish

osu! Alumni

1,833 posts

Joined August 2009

RandomJibberish 2011-01-14T06:27:03+00:00

pieguy1372 wrote:
I know that, but then you can't use 2x sliders in the same map unless you somehow set a 4x inherited section.

That's the point - Hold sliders aren't removed, you can just only use them if you give up 2x. This prevents any slider speed abuse.

Why you'd use 2x at any point is beyond me, but meh

pieguy1372 wrote:
And that still won't let you use 0.125x sliders...

Boo hoo

KRZY

Former osu! Champion: OWC#3

4,848 posts

Joined May 2009

Topic Starter

KRZY 2011-01-14T16:09:44+00:00

Odaril wrote:
Moreover, hold sliders pretty much break any kind of movement, sitting there waiting for a note to end. It will just cut the flow and make a map less enjoyable. Any slider can fulfill the purpose of a hold slider, and they don't break the flow nor the movement.

If this happens, you are using it wrong.

Potential for abuse? Mod it. When people don't listen to you? Don't rank it. It's as simple as that. People abuse spacing and sliders all the time, should they be removed from the game?

Come up with a set of guidelines for the hold note, make people follow it, and it will be fine. Mappers musn't go around saying "but it's the guidelines, it can be broken" tho. Adhering to the guidelines should make the map fine in 99% of the cases. If you are in that 1% percent, you are a great mapper.

Also, awp's idea sounds great, and is how hold (or long) notes are done in every other games. Two approaching circles, one at the beginning and the other at the end, or an initial approach circle with a drain bar, would work fine. Also, as someone (I can't remember who) suggested, hold notes can be denoted by a red glow, not unlike the hyper jump notes in CTB.

Hold notes would also work perfectly fine in CTB and taiko.

Zetta

334 posts

Joined December 2009

Zetta 2011-01-14T17:06:45+00:00

I was going to suggest this after playing this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23636 and seeing that the mapper created a very very long slider and just folded it into itself countless times.

Supportan.

mm201

osu! Alumni

4,495 posts

Joined August 2008

mm201 2011-01-14T18:00:59+00:00

Now I understand why peppy never implemented any of my requests.

Larto

4,128 posts

Joined June 2008

Larto 2011-01-14T18:11:29+00:00

I agree with this request. Though I don't think we need a note for that. I'd be happy if we could just bring back the normal hold sliders. Brings less confusion with it than adding a completely new gameplay object.

The reasoning that it "can be abused" is hardly a valid one. Every kind of creativity can be abused.
Why don't we remove the player's ability to set a slider speed? Just let the slider speed be determined by the BPM alone! I mean, the player can abuse the slider speeds and confuse the player!
Why don't we remove the player's ability to use hitsounds? Just let the hitsounds be set automatically! I mean, the player can abuse the hitsounds and make them sound awful!
Hell, just create maps automatically! Because, you know, players could create bad ones! *shudder*

Furthermore, hold sliders have been used correctly and nicely. I'd definitely say that the last slider in Stupid MF's Insane/Crazy/Hard difficulty is very much fitting. While that part can, and has been mapped differently, does it mean that the way the last slider was used isn't "epic" and cool in a way? Well, actually, people think that it is epic and cool. That's not my opinion, mind you, I just asked quite a few people about the map, and about the slider when the map wasn't ranked yet. And most of them were very pleased with the slider.
EDIT: Thinking about it, the fact that so many hold slider maps got ranked kind of proves that there definitely are some BATs, MATs and general modders approving of how they can be used.

I would indeed really have hold sliders back. I understand that they cannot be ranked anymore in their current form, as red sections should only be used for timing changes now, but that doesn't mean hold sliders don't work. Because they can work, very, very well.

+1 Support

CheeseWarlock

osu! Alumni

1,185 posts

Joined May 2008

CheeseWarlock 2011-01-14T22:27:54+00:00

I've reconsidered. This would open up new options in beatmapping, and give a great alternative to situations where right now only dubiously rankable sliders (hold/burai etc.) can even come close capture the feeling of the music. Hold sliders were nice when used properly, but the real problem was that mappers were often forced to storyboard in some kind of silly warning; having a consistent way to visually indicate notes that are held but do not move (probably introducing a new type of hitobject) would cause less headaches both in terms of playing and ranking.

So, support.

Card N'FoRcE

osu! Alumni

4,058 posts

Here since the beginning

Card N'FoRcE 2011-01-14T23:50:36+00:00

Larto wrote:
I agree with this request. Though I don't think we need a note for that. I'd be happy if we could just bring back the normal hold sliders. Brings less confusion with it than adding a completely new gameplay object.

The reasoning that it "can be abused" is hardly a valid one. Every kind of creativity can be abused. [...]

Furthermore, hold sliders have been used correctly and nicely. [...]

EDIT: Thinking about it, the fact that so many hold slider maps got ranked kind of proves that there definitely are some BATs, MATs and general modders approving of how they can be used.

I would indeed really have hold sliders back. I understand that they cannot be ranked anymore in their current form, as red sections should only be used for timing changes now, but that doesn't mean hold sliders don't work. Because they can work, very, very well.

This This This This This This This This This This This This This This This THIS.

Lilac

Elite Mapper

1,515 posts

Joined December 2008

Lilac 2011-01-14T23:53:45+00:00

Larto, Stupid MF's Hold Sliders was awesome.

Especially with another certain map as well...

yeahyeahyeahhh

osu! Alumni

2,850 posts

Joined December 2008

yeahyeahyeahhh 2011-01-15T01:23:00+00:00

Larto wrote:
I agree with this request. Though I don't think we need a note for that. I'd be happy if we could just bring back the normal hold sliders. Brings less confusion with it than adding a completely new gameplay object.

The reasoning that it "can be abused" is hardly a valid one. Every kind of creativity can be abused.
Why don't we remove the player's ability to set a slider speed? Just let the slider speed be determined by the BPM alone! I mean, the player can abuse the slider speeds and confuse the player!
Why don't we remove the player's ability to use hitsounds? Just let the hitsounds be set automatically! I mean, the player can abuse the hitsounds and make them sound awful!
Hell, just create maps automatically! Because, you know, players could create bad ones! *shudder*

Furthermore, hold sliders have been used correctly and nicely. I'd definitely say that the last slider in Stupid MF's Insane/Crazy/Hard difficulty is very much fitting. While that part can, and has been mapped differently, does it mean that the way the last slider was used isn't "epic" and cool in a way? Well, actually, people think that it is epic and cool. That's not my opinion, mind you, I just asked quite a few people about the map, and about the slider when the map wasn't ranked yet. And most of them were very pleased with the slider.
EDIT: Thinking about it, the fact that so many hold slider maps got ranked kind of proves that there definitely are some BATs, MATs and general modders approving of how they can be used.

I would indeed really have hold sliders back. I understand that they cannot be ranked anymore in their current form, as red sections should only be used for timing changes now, but that doesn't mean hold sliders don't work. Because they can work, very, very well.

+1 Support

Larto has leveled up!

Respect +1
ePeen +1
yyy's love +3

pieguyn

2,020 posts

Joined May 2009

pieguyn 2011-01-15T01:29:37+00:00

I agree with Larto. And RandomJibberish, just because you can't think of any place 2x sliders can be used, that doesn't mean that there aren't any places that the general public would like to see them used (and besides you couldn't even use 1.5x sliders or 1.25x sliders either).

I vote for just being able to set inherited sections down below 0.5x.

JeY k

66 posts

Joined July 2009

JeY k 2011-01-15T03:08:27+00:00

Reading through this topic, I'm a bit unclear as to the current "hold sliders" and ho they're unrankable or how some were approved...

If there would be a hold element, that would be fine, it would just need to be expressed that it has to be used a certain way. Really quick holds would probably cause people to get an X, much like how I cannot do really short spinners at all ;_;

For the effect, it could be distinct, and as for how long you have to hold it, it would be a burst of color that comes out of the circle which reaches a peak of thickness and retreats back to the circle, and kindof like on normal hitcircles when the color is around the edge is when you release. That way the timing of it, even if the holds are shorter, will come at a less of a surprise.

I dunno, I just think it could work in general if it were added properly.

Zelos

1,111 posts

Joined May 2010

Zelos 2011-01-15T07:05:24+00:00

There is only one problem i see with this is showing how long you would hold the hold note for in gameplay.

Firo Prochainezo

2,140 posts

Joined June 2010

Firo Prochainezo 2011-01-15T08:33:53+00:00

Zelos wrote:
There is only one problem i see with this is showing how long you would hold the hold note for in gameplay.

The whole map.

Luneko

842 posts

Joined June 2009

Luneko 2011-01-15T13:14:00+00:00

Short sliders looks so much better than a hold note imo

TKiller

4,390 posts

Joined May 2009

TKiller 2011-01-16T01:42:50+00:00

While I am still shocked, I agree with Larto completely.

Chronoman

38 posts

Joined October 2009

Chronoman 2011-01-16T02:51:31+00:00

All in all, I think hold notes would look and sound nicer than hold sliders. Aside from that, I don't see much extra reason to implement this rather than re-rank hold sliders. However, in my opinion, it would greatly affect the looks and sounds of it. Particularly because the rapid slider ends will usually cause the hit sounds to go terribly with the song, and the beatmappers rarely, if ever, turn the volume down for them when the hold sliders are placed for a single note, rather than many. As for looks, in my opinion, a slider that has its ends overlapping just looks a bit unprofessional to me.

However, there is a small difference funtionality-wise. With hold sliders, if there are notes after it, it is sometimes difficult to tell when to let go and switch to the next hold slider / hit circle. With the way I see hold markers coming along, if they did get implemented, it would be a bit easier to see when to let go.

I don't think it needs to be a huge priority, but I support this.

Ekaru

3,617 posts

Joined July 2008

Ekaru 2011-01-16T04:42:22+00:00

Larto: Having it officially implemented would increase the amount of abuse, actually.

Having it officially implemented would make it 100% technically rankable, as long as it went to something in the music. Many BATs are way too lenient; I got a 10-second-long 1/4 stream ranked once. And no, it didn't get unranked (though there was a ton of rage).

As long as it's technically rankable, it's not hard to get a BAT to rank it if you look around enough. "Will you change this?" "No." "'K, RANKED!" Just go to a different BAT if one disagrees; with MAT bubbles, getting questionable things ranked is easier than ever. So, people can get away with all kinds of silly things.

However, I support this feature request. Some people will still use this correctly in a fun way, and those who don't, well, better something pretty and readable than a .5x 1/8 repeat slider.

TKiller

4,390 posts

Joined May 2009

TKiller 2011-01-16T06:20:02+00:00

on a different matter, lol, Ekaru, what's wrong with 10s long stream?

NatsumeRin

osu! Alumni

4,032 posts

Joined August 2009

NatsumeRin 2011-01-16T06:54:39+00:00

what i have to say now is i agree with Larto completely yeah.

OzzyOzrock

5,185 posts

Joined August 2010

OzzyOzrock 2011-01-16T07:15:08+00:00

Hold slider nowadays can be fun on taiko o/

KRZY

Former osu! Champion: OWC#3

4,848 posts

Joined May 2009

Topic Starter

KRZY 2011-01-16T07:42:33+00:00

Love the support this is getting. Note that I ask for a hold "feature," not a hold "note" (although my opening post only talks about a hold note). Making hold sliders re-rankable is perfectly fine :3 (provided, of course, that we figure out a way to make them without using red lines).

I personally thought of changing the 0.5~2.0 SV restriction to 0.1~2.0.

Larto

4,128 posts

Joined June 2008

Larto 2011-01-16T11:53:37+00:00

NatsumeRin wrote:
what i have to say now is i agree with Larto completely yeah.

omg

Ekaru

3,617 posts

Joined July 2008

Ekaru 2011-01-16T15:51:32+00:00

TKiller wrote:
on a different matter, lol, Ekaru, what's wrong with 10s long stream?

Because it didn't fit the music. At all. A 10-second-long stream works if it's clear in the music, but here... No. XD

Natteke

6,538 posts

Joined August 2009

Natteke 2011-01-16T20:07:53+00:00

Take a look at this video. It represents hold notes at their best. I know that osu! is a different game and averything but I still think hold notes sometimes are really awesome so I do support this.