My bad Shiirn, I didn't notice KwaN's post when I skimmed through the threads.
I don't see any changes on puxtu's diffs. Are you sure it was updated?
I don't see any changes on puxtu's diffs. Are you sure it was updated?
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Camellia feat. Nana Takahashi - Mushi no Sumu Tokoro [Osu|Ta
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Topic Starter
I took his .rar and plopped over the file and then fixed the tags. If they weren't changed, that's on him. Will get to HR88's update tomorrow, zzz
I downloaded his .rar and it looks like it has all the changes. Also, your profile says you haven't updated the map in the last 18 hours. Perhaps you were mistaken ;n;
pretty sure shiirn is drunk again lmao
[weffoni and weffmuzu]
01:14:820 (4,5,6) -
01:17:792 (29,30,31) -
01:20:765 (58,59,60) -
i don't hear any 1/3 in the song, please change to 1/4 :C
[specifically weffmuzu]
00:34:325 - this lack of note felt a bit empty, add a d like you did in oni, not killing by a lot the calmness of the song knowing you you will say "nu" anyways cuz DUN KIL MAPRE SPIRTI i mean weff
nu kd
01:14:820 (4,5,6) -
01:17:792 (29,30,31) -
01:20:765 (58,59,60) -
i don't hear any 1/3 in the song, please change to 1/4 :C
[specifically weffmuzu]
00:34:325 - this lack of note felt a bit empty, add a d like you did in oni, not killing by a lot the calmness of the song knowing you you will say "nu" anyways cuz DUN KIL MAPRE SPIRTI i mean weff
nu kd
ty_Gezo_ wrote:
[weffoni and weffmuzu]
01:14:820 (4,5,6) -
01:17:792 (29,30,31) -
01:20:765 (58,59,60) -
i don't hear any 1/3 in the song, please change to 1/4 :C There is 1/3. It's slightly less audible because of vocals, you can hear it 00:18:350 - here though.
[specifically weffmuzu]
00:34:325 - this lack of note felt a bit empty, add a d like you did in oni, not killing by a lot the calmness of the song knowing you you will say "nu" anyways cuz DUN KIL MAPRE SPIRTI i mean weff weff'd
nu kd
idk if I had changes on my end so I updated source and tags by myself. Please check without AIMod if muzukashii or Oni has 1.96 SV. They shouldn't but I don't trust this game °^°
http://puu.sh/poTr4/8f2dc09643.zip
weff
general reminder to stop digging your own grave
omg so fast! D:
Topic Starter
but how else will i get cuddles if not from the forgiving earth?puxtu wrote:
general reminder to stop digging your own grave
Let's see how it goes!
QUALIFIED!
QUALIFIED!
now let's wait for some drama :^)
Hi
nice one puxtu
dude thx
Hard is an Insane, gg
congrats btw
congrats btw
you serious about normal - hard gap?
I wonder how these difficulty gaps work now because if this gets ranked as is... o.o
HappyRocket88 wrote:
I wonder how these difficulty gaps work now because if this gets ranked as is... o.o
Topic Starter
I'm of the opinion that minor difficulty gaps are not a big issue, especially on a track like this which has rhythmical issues that disallow usage of simple "lots of 1/1" to "lots of 1/2" transitions from normal to Hard. Star rating itself is also a shitty metric for any music that isn't strictly structured.
But if someone wants to make a boring 2.8* diff that's basically Hard minus the triples and actually-following-the-rhythm 1/3 and 3/4, go ahead. I'm not putting my own name on it, because I feel it'd be fairly worthless.
But if someone wants to make a boring 2.8* diff that's basically Hard minus the triples and actually-following-the-rhythm 1/3 and 3/4, go ahead. I'm not putting my own name on it, because I feel it'd be fairly worthless.
With all my respect to your opinion I can't agree here. As one of high-level mappers you should understand if one difficulty level seems boring to you it doesn't mean that it will be boring to the appropriate level player base, also gap here is not minor, not on aim level not on rhythm intense.Shiirn wrote:
I'm of the opinion that minor difficulty gaps are not a big issue, especially on a track like this which has rhythmical issues that disallow usage of simple "lots of 1/1" to "lots of 1/2" transitions from normal to Hard. Star rating itself is also a shitty metric for any music that isn't strictly structured.
But if someone wants to make a boring 2.8* diff that's basically Hard minus the triples and actually-following-the-rhythm 1/3 and 3/4, go ahead. I'm not putting my own name on it, because I feel it'd be fairly worthless.
I had no problem with the spread, seeing as Normal acts like an advanced diff, and Hard as a "Really Light Insane"
Topic Starter
To summarize as eloquently as possible:Sieg wrote:
With all my respect to your opinion I can't agree here. As one of high-level mappers you should understand if one difficulty level seems boring to you it doesn't mean that it will be boring to the appropriate level player base, also gap here is not minor, not on aim level not on rhythm intense.Shiirn wrote:
I'm of the opinion that minor difficulty gaps are not a big issue, especially on a track like this which has rhythmical issues that disallow usage of simple "lots of 1/1" to "lots of 1/2" transitions from normal to Hard. Star rating itself is also a shitty metric for any music that isn't strictly structured.
But if someone wants to make a boring 2.8* diff that's basically Hard minus the triples and actually-following-the-rhythm 1/3 and 3/4, go ahead. I'm not putting my own name on it, because I feel it'd be fairly worthless.
when I say "boring" I do not mean "too easy and unchallenging to be fun". It is quite possible to have a fun easy diff; Mika's normal is proof of that.
by "boring" I mean a map that tries its hardest to be as simple as possible and takes no risks and does nothing special.
The song itself is a combination of two separate but equally important
Let's compare them.
Mika's Normal provides changes in distance snap you normally don't see in a Normal. They play fine and fit the music quite well, but this is a point in its favor of being "harder than usual". As well, the density of clicks is capped out at around 1/2, but there are several points where there are 3/4 sliders onto a circle that encourage new players to use their second keys.
cheesist's hard provides very, very simple triples and similar 3/4->circle sliders. I say "simple triples" because there is not a single instance in the entire map where the three clicks are circles. It's a long-established fact that one of the easiest and most naturally flowing actions in the game is a triple ending with a slider, or to a lesser extent, a slider with two notes after it. This difficulty abuses the hell out of this, so every triple should be considered much easier than it seems. It takes Mika's encouraging of a second key in places and actively utilizes the second key all the time, if very lightly. This diff also introduces doubles and singletapping 1/4 sliders for wubs. That may seem a bit overloaded, but you can't use some of these techniques without ignoring the others unless you want to ignore the music itself because of the whole dual-theme situation going on.
Now, a difficulty between these would need to be a "middleground" between them: that is to say, not introduce some of the techniques in the Hard while introducing others. Simply having more 1/2 circles doesn't actually respect the music at all. The music itself follows these incremental techniques. You can't add in the triples without also including the doubles, as otherwise parts of the map simply wouldn't follow the music. You can't throw in many more 1/2 circles because you won't be following the vocals as neatly. So while it's possible to make a difficulty between the two that plays well, I just don't think it'd fit the idea of the map. Happyrocket's diff included, I specifically utilized these guest difficulties to introduce techniques that actually show the differences between Normal, Hard, and Insane diffs without simply making them more dense or more spaced. I didn't tell any of them, but if they didn't do something to that effect, I wouldn't have accepted it. This is why Fetish had such a hard time getting me to accept his difficulty - because it wasn't all that different from my own in terms of scaling difficulty. It took some modding to make it fit as a side-along to Decay that used different techniques than Decay while still being a natural step up from Insane.
I ended up ranting here, sorry about that. It comes down to whether a sufficiently-disgruntled 'community' member is offended enough to go bother a QAT about it, and if that happens I'll add a difficulty that's awkwardly placed between the two just the way said sufficiently-disgruntled person wants. It's not like it'd take me that long.
I still think you can have an intersting and challenging diff between the two that takes an edgy concept and executes it in a simple way, that way you counteract things you described as boring in your post while still providing an interesting challenge that would somehow fit your spread.
but that's just my opinion, do with it as you please
but that's just my opinion, do with it as you please
Topic Starter
It's theoretically possible but also largely unnecessary. It'd just be "Normal with half of the additional challenges Hard has", not a special difficulty of its own. I think myself Hard is a bit overloaded in jumps from Normal, but the song doesn't really let you half-do any of the changes, like I explained. 1/2 spam would barely follow the music, the triples necessitate the doubles, and using circles instead of 1/4 sliders for wubs would just be weird.
But again, it boils down to community choice and I've already had people offer to fill it in if this gets DQ'd. I'll help them fit the theme of the map, then we'll just go back to qualification again, probably.
But again, it boils down to community choice and I've already had people offer to fill it in if this gets DQ'd. I'll help them fit the theme of the map, then we'll just go back to qualification again, probably.
why is there only one beat of recovery time on this normal though, like after a spinner? I don't particularly care about the other choices in the map but like that spinner dude lol
Yaaaaaaaay!
Edit: holy did it really take me so long to write this lol hi oko
Hello, I don't really have an opinion on the spread-issue, although what I do have an opinion on is the Normal having only one beat of recovery time between 00:41:755 (1,1) -, I'm certain that this is way too hard for players of this level; If you end up on the other side of the map due to uncontrolled spinning, this is essentially a really huge 1/1-jump, and most players on that level can't spin fast enough to be able to end the spinner earlier in order to hit the next note accurately either; And the next object is visible like 2/1 before the spinner even ends, that might cause players to 'panic' too
If this actually were allowed / since you already do that, I wonder why you didn't extend 01:08:505 (1) by one more 1/1 bc the beat there seems much more prominent / warranting that 1/1-gap but yeah no
Also, I already mentioned to the mapper that there are a lot of more or less minor spacing-differences (talking about x0,04 ~ x0,08 ) that are easily noticable and that I personally dislike very much aesthetically because they either make the difference of causing a followpoint to spawn ot not, like at 00:27:266 (1,2,3) - (and 00:28:381 (1,2,3) - lol), or make the difference of circles actually touching each other or not, like at 00:31:910 (1,2,3,4) - or both at 01:01:074 (1,2,3,4) - etcetc, but the mapper said that they don't see a need to polish all of that as it seems fine to them, so I'd hereby like to ask for the community's opinions on that, it simply seems a bit unpolished to me and imo the ranking process is supposed to ensure that maps achieve their highest possible quality, doesn't seem like a huge effort
Also @Rocket, what's the very last spinner supposed to end on? At least to me it seems like the strings have their last note around 01:41:662 and those wibblywobbly-sounds continue like for another whole measure or more o:
sorry Shiirn xd
Hello, I don't really have an opinion on the spread-issue, although what I do have an opinion on is the Normal having only one beat of recovery time between 00:41:755 (1,1) -, I'm certain that this is way too hard for players of this level; If you end up on the other side of the map due to uncontrolled spinning, this is essentially a really huge 1/1-jump, and most players on that level can't spin fast enough to be able to end the spinner earlier in order to hit the next note accurately either; And the next object is visible like 2/1 before the spinner even ends, that might cause players to 'panic' too
If this actually were allowed / since you already do that, I wonder why you didn't extend 01:08:505 (1) by one more 1/1 bc the beat there seems much more prominent / warranting that 1/1-gap but yeah no
Also, I already mentioned to the mapper that there are a lot of more or less minor spacing-differences (talking about x0,04 ~ x0,08 ) that are easily noticable and that I personally dislike very much aesthetically because they either make the difference of causing a followpoint to spawn ot not, like at 00:27:266 (1,2,3) - (and 00:28:381 (1,2,3) - lol), or make the difference of circles actually touching each other or not, like at 00:31:910 (1,2,3,4) - or both at 01:01:074 (1,2,3,4) - etcetc, but the mapper said that they don't see a need to polish all of that as it seems fine to them, so I'd hereby like to ask for the community's opinions on that, it simply seems a bit unpolished to me and imo the ranking process is supposed to ensure that maps achieve their highest possible quality, doesn't seem like a huge effort
Also @Rocket, what's the very last spinner supposed to end on? At least to me it seems like the strings have their last note around 01:41:662 and those wibblywobbly-sounds continue like for another whole measure or more o:
sorry Shiirn xd
Topic Starter
For the Normal's second spinner: I don't see a personal problem with it. I'd have a big problem if it was a shorter spinner where players need to spin the entire time, but you can lazily get a "Clear" halfway through out with decent spinning. (I intentionally lazily spun like 200, an absurdly low number, and got like 3000 bonus). As such, any sort of player will have it completed long before it's actually timed out, and given the approach rate, can very clearly see the next note coming. Thus, it gives the normal player a challenge (funny how that works) - "Do I spin the rest of the spinner and need to snap to the left, or do I forgo the bonus points to safely hit it?" - this is a split second decision I find very neat because it occurs when the player's already done spinning and thus has nothing to lose by moving on to the next note.
For HR88's ending spinner, I wanted it to end at 01:35:811 - , but he insisted on having a longer one for the spinner fights (well not literally that reason, I'm just being silly).
For the spacing differences, they're intentional. The map is intentionally a bit 'off'. It's part of the theme of the map whilst playing. If people are going to scorn it while glancing at it in the editor, that's fine, I don't make maps to satisfy the current scene of mappers to begin with because I feel I'd need to give up far too much freedom of expression to need to make everything neat und tidy. If you're talking about "oh these slider ends aren't stacked" when they were supposed to be, well, oops, guess we should DQ and fix those?
This is a consistent theme throughout every difficulty except for the Easy. Every difficulty has slightly-off spacing. It's different from being "unpolished". I've noticed every single little difference and even intentionally created a few to fit with the theme of the music. (e.g. the dnb portion has relatively little weirdo spacing, the wub sections have plenty)
*shrugs* I'm fine with whatever the community decides. I just don't want to see the same faces every time I hear the words "Community". It's becoming very close to becoming an excuse word and I want people to watch out for that.
EDIT: That said, I'm fine if this gets DQ'd, just make sure necessary changes are listed within the DQ post, not just "do whatever X said". I'll be happy to go over them.
For HR88's ending spinner, I wanted it to end at 01:35:811 - , but he insisted on having a longer one for the spinner fights (well not literally that reason, I'm just being silly).
For the spacing differences, they're intentional. The map is intentionally a bit 'off'. It's part of the theme of the map whilst playing. If people are going to scorn it while glancing at it in the editor, that's fine, I don't make maps to satisfy the current scene of mappers to begin with because I feel I'd need to give up far too much freedom of expression to need to make everything neat und tidy. If you're talking about "oh these slider ends aren't stacked" when they were supposed to be, well, oops, guess we should DQ and fix those?
This is a consistent theme throughout every difficulty except for the Easy. Every difficulty has slightly-off spacing. It's different from being "unpolished". I've noticed every single little difference and even intentionally created a few to fit with the theme of the music. (e.g. the dnb portion has relatively little weirdo spacing, the wub sections have plenty)
*shrugs* I'm fine with whatever the community decides. I just don't want to see the same faces every time I hear the words "Community". It's becoming very close to becoming an excuse word and I want people to watch out for that.
EDIT: That said, I'm fine if this gets DQ'd, just make sure necessary changes are listed within the DQ post, not just "do whatever X said". I'll be happy to go over them.
oh ok my apologies then, I specifically talked with Mika before writing this to avoid this happening, and they didn't bring any of this up so whoops ok then
do you just mess around with your GDer's diffs without tellimg them or how does this work lol
the spinner tho sheesh
do you just mess around with your GDer's diffs without tellimg them or how does this work lol
the spinner tho sheesh
Topic Starter
every GDer of mine accepts the clause 'i can make minor changes to your difficulty to answer simple mods or to polish your map'. Major changes are still through them, but for Mika and cheesiest, they naturally had some small errors here and there that I changed around to be more consistent. Clean up in one place, intentionally make the small error in the same part later on, etc.
SPINNERS SUCK
SPINNERS SUCK
You should have renamed them properly, if that was the case.Bara- wrote:
I had no problem with the spread, seeing as Normal acts like an advanced diff, and Hard as a "Really Light Insane"
Topic Starter
where the hell did "advanced" come from anyway
do u prefer light Hyper
Right, I've got some free time and decided to look closely on what Normal can bring to the players and if there is any room to improvements. So what I catch after some playtests and review in editor.Shiirn wrote:
Mika's Normal provides changes in distance snap you normally don't see in a Normal. They play fine and fit the music quite well, but this is a point in its favor of being "harder than usual". As well, the density of clicks is capped out at around 1/2, but there are several points where there are 3/4 sliders onto a circle that encourage new players to use their second keys.
provides changes in distance snap (c) - Yes. This is not what usually in current meta but can work really well for a beatmap spread and new techniques introduce if preformed well.
But I can't really tell that they plays fine (this is personal feeling ofc!), also I'm not really able to understand logic behind some of them, hopefully creator can clarify this a bit.
00:07:576 (3,1) - 2/1 pause from the weak point 00:08:319 () (vocal end, slider end) to the really strong point 00:09:062 () (hard beat, downbeat, finish, object start) emphasized with compressed spacing?
00:12:220 (1) - really strange spot to the spinner start, either misplaced and should start on more relevant to music 00:12:034 () or hit-object is missing on 00:12:034 ()
00:20:207 (1,1) - another compressed spacing on strong beat, right, consistent with the 1st one but still this kind of emphasize would work more authentic with extended spacing not compressed.
00:21:693 (3,1) - ^
00:23:551 (4,1) - and now you have pretty much the same case but with highly extended spacing.
00:24:666 (1,2) - now see, extended spacing on weak beat, it also belongs to 00:24:666 (1,2) - part in music so I don't see any reflection in music to make extended spacing - stack 00:25:223 (2,1) - pattern here.
00:28:009 (3,1) - this will be easily misread by this level players, see 00:22:436 (1,2) - how you used same overlaps with 1/4 just 6 seconds ago in the same music phase.
00:29:124 (3,4,1) - ^ can't really say that this is pretty much the same case, but borderline.
00:33:582 (5,1,2) - Personally I thinks this are minor changes in DS but may be worth mentioning.
00:46:214 (5,6) - now it's extended spacing to the strong beat, while you tend to use compressed?
and so on... again I'm not practically saying any spacing changes are bad for normal, no I think this technique should be used more often but unlike in hrad+ levels it must be more strictly\obviously reflect music and be more logical. Also I'm sorry that my post is missing how-to-change part, I decided to throw it off because I can't understand the core design behind this placements.
As per Sieg's request.
We've discussed the things in advance, the concerns seem valid.
We've discussed the things in advance, the concerns seem valid.
Topic Starter
So let me get this straight: You think it might be unfair to Normal level players to neglect Distance Snap a bit? I feel like people place far too much stock into just viewing the map via the editor without having any actual idea of how their map plays.
People focus so hard on mapping individual beats or layers or instruments and forget to map the entire track as a whole. The current modding scene focuses too heavily on consistency between particular sections where it truly does not matter, so you're able to get walls of text that say next to nothing and do nothing but look intimidating.
I'll go over the map later with Mikasa. Maybe make a few changes, rename the diff to "Advanced" or whatever the hell, then we can get back on track.
People focus so hard on mapping individual beats or layers or instruments and forget to map the entire track as a whole. The current modding scene focuses too heavily on consistency between particular sections where it truly does not matter, so you're able to get walls of text that say next to nothing and do nothing but look intimidating.
I'll go over the map later with Mikasa. Maybe make a few changes, rename the diff to "Advanced" or whatever the hell, then we can get back on track.
As I said, I'ts perfectly fine if you neglect (read as free-style placement, no practically logical) them a bit (up to some degree, let's say 20%). But it's not fine when you mess around with incocnsistent\randomly placed jumps-antiumps, "no, you must read approach here instead" changes for newbie players. Thanks for understanding, I'm glad to assist you or Mikasa if needed.
Topic Starter
Sieg wrote:
Right, I've got some free time and decided to look closely on what Normal can bring to the players and if there is any room to improvements. So what I catch after some playtests and review in editor.
provides changes in distance snap (c) - Yes. This is not what usually in current meta but can work really well for a beatmap spread and new techniques introduce if preformed well.
But I can't really tell that they plays fine (this is personal feeling ofc!), also I'm not really able to understand logic behind some of them, hopefully creator can clarify this a bit.
00:07:576 (3,1) - 2/1 pause from the weak point 00:08:319 () (vocal end, slider end) to the really strong point 00:09:062 () (hard beat, downbeat, finish, object start) emphasized with compressed spacing? I have no idea what you're trying to say by "Emphasized". The stanza resets and the spacing is largely irrelevant. Having lower spacing doesn't particurally do anything, even at a Normal playlevel a 2/1 pause at 160bpm is long enough to where the exact spacing doesn't matter.
00:12:220 (1) - really strange spot to the spinner start, either misplaced and should start on more relevant to music 00:12:034 () or hit-object is missing on 00:12:034 () I don't really think this matters but it's something that can be changed.
00:20:207 (1,1) - another compressed spacing on strong beat, right, consistent with the 1st one but still this kind of emphasize would work more authentic with extended spacing not compressed.
00:21:693 (3,1) - ^ These are both minor stanza resets. they largely do nothing except reset the musical pattern.
00:23:551 (4,1) - and now you have pretty much the same case but with highly extended spacing. THIS PARTICULAR STANZA RESET, HOWEVER, RESETS THE ENTIRE CHORUS TO START OVER AGAIN. thus it is much more powerful, and should be mapped accordingly. And it is. The distance between 4 and 1 isn't altogether that large considering slider leniency either.
00:24:666 (1,2) - now see, extended spacing on weak beat, it also belongs to 00:24:666 (1,2) - part in music so I don't see any reflection in music to make extended spacing - stack 00:25:223 (2,1) - pattern here. Because this is the second iteration of the chorus, the rhythms are already in mind for even Normal players. The spacing is, again, largely irrelevant.
you can kind of see where i'm going here. But i'll discuss the map itself with mikasa and make some changes. I fully expected this DQ, so i'm not salty at all, but i feel it's part of my role to be a bit uppity about it for tradition's sake.