A simple question: Why not making this great game open source?

Answer: Because I like my code!

In all fairness, I am against making this game open source because at the current point in time I do not wish to share my code publicly, and nor do I want/require feedback on the internals of the game (although I am more than happy to get input from you guys which will lead to changing these, as you probably already figured). There is also the issue of security being compromised *very* easily for the online functionality of the game, which would mean selectively providing source code.

This may change in the future, but for now you will have to live with the fact that this is a free but closed-source game . Sorry to disappoint.

Ok that's a choice. But it would have given the possibility to play it easily on linux for example.

This is not actually true - until Mono supports the XNA/DirectX framework, this game will not be playable on 'nix (unless someone was to reimplement all graphical calls using another library, which I'm not sure exists in Mono yet). If/when this becomes possible, I will make a version available though, for sure.

Actually, the XNA Framework is written in C#.NET, so all they need to do is emulate the .NET framework on GNU/Linux. Anyways, I prefer to use C++, because it is more easily ported, even though it is a bit more complex and you need to worry about memory. I've looked a bit at XNA and it looks very nice. Maybe someday I'll try it more in depth.

I understand how it feels. I don't want to share my code either, It is my child. But if you allow some parts of the game to be open sources, while the core remains closed source, the game may "grow" faster. Also, if you are able to add plugin support, this would be incredible for us programmers as I wouldn't be forced to use C#, depending on the way you make it. =P

All I can say is it takes some time getting used to releasing source code. You don't have to release it right away. I usually release parts I write and rewrite with every program, like networking, since I never write it the same way. As for the rest, it all depends how long since last modifications. I start with the branches, then eventually release the trunk.

Anyways, if you need help of an extra programmer... well, I don't like that much C#, so forget it. But if it is writing plugins, or a plugin system, I can do that (even in C#). =P

-- Wolf --

Interfacing .NET with native code using marshalling is quite slow, and I can't even begin to think of what plugins you would want to make. And I will add that the source will never be made open (for the best or the worst), and progress will be solely dependent on my development speed. which is hopefully fast enough for you .

And no I am not against open-source - quite the opposite in fact. This just isn't a project I wish to release sources for.

Here's a suggestion for people that can't play this game in Linux:

Don't use linux. Use Windows. Games run on Windows.


-Kylecito out.

Or dual-boot, idk

I haven't actually tested this in WINE yet because of how lazy I am

Kylecito wrote:

Here's a suggestion for people that can't play this game in Linux:

Don't use linux. Use Windows. Games run on Windows.


-Kylecito out.

As we say in French, "It's the snake biting his tail".
There are less games on windows because of the use of directx instead of opengl for exemple. All ID software games works natively on linux. It's easy to port a software while you use opensource tools to develop it.

A few games on linux -> Not a lot of people wanting games on linux -> developpers just create for windows -> Gamers play on windows and all of this again and again.
It's not that hard to break the circle and develop cross platform games.

Woshee wrote:

...use of directx instead of opengl for exemple.

It doesn't help that DX is *way* ahead of opengl at the moment in terms of usability and functionality, but I guess that is the result of the cycle which you mention.

Who needs games on linux anyway >.>.

Woshee wrote:

As we say in French, "It's the snake biting his tail".
There are less games on windows because of the use of directx instead of opengl for exemple. All ID software games works natively on linux. It's easy to port a software while you use opensource tools to develop it.

A few games on linux -> Not a lot of people wanting games on linux -> developpers just create for windows -> Gamers play on windows and all of this again and again.
It's not that hard to break the circle and develop cross platform games.

so how does this change what i said? games don't run in linux. no matter the circumstances, linux fanboys tend to make up weird conspiracies about how GETTING PAID FOR YOUR WORK IS EVILZ and crap.

normal people not giving a crap about learning to use linux -> people not using linux -> developers not making games for a OS few people use -> linux only acts as a good server and security OS -> leave gaming to windows

;>

Linux has a wrong image, it's at least as simple as windows to use, and you have many more possibilities, just because it's YOUR system and you don't rent it to microsoft.

But I think we're getting far from the subject.

Kylecito wrote:

Woshee wrote:

no matter the circumstances, linux fanboys tend to make up weird conspiracies about how GETTING PAID FOR YOUR WORK IS EVILZ and crap.

Well, it's more of open-source is good and non-open source is evil from a linux fanboy perspective because open-source software tends to be more stable and errors are addressed more quickly as there's an entire community of people willing to work on a single project rather than a select few. The consequences, however, of open source is that you don't pay for it, and people often don't donate for great software if they don't have to.

In regards to what Woshee's been saying, I would still argue that Linux isn't as simple as Windows to learn, and occasionally not as simple to use. Once you have a system set up that you know how to work, it's just as easy and slightly more convenient, but getting to that stage requires more blood sweat and tears.

Damn repositories are handy though.

hidden message:

awp wrote:

people often don't donate for great software if they don't have to

awp wrote:

people often don't donate for great software if they don't have to

And you scare people away or get hacked if they have to. And people do donate. If they didn't, I wonder how all those free open-source projects would still be running.

As for the plugins, I have no idea either, maybe a drunk mode where everything on the screen sways. Or a beginner mode, where the song would slow down if your life is low... maybe that would be even harder, since you couldn't really follow the beat.

As for GNU/Linux, it is not much about the open source, but about the freedom, as in price and freedom of speech, not being bound by any contract. Every operating system I know, except Windows, which isn't anymore, is based on UNIX. GNU/Linux is as easy to use as Windows XP, you only need the right distribution for you. And there are games for Linux and many great programs which were ported to Windows to please those narrow-minded people who think "Lunix is a terrorist system designed to transform our children into hackers."

Teamspeak [closed-source]
Return to Castle Wolfenstein [closed-source, commercial]
Enemy Territory (love that game) [closed-source, commercial, free multiplayer]
AbiWord
Audacity
Pidgin (formerly GAIM)
Ogg Vorbis (used in many games to nowadays as a replacement to MP3 songs)
OpenOffice.org (a free alternative to the expensive Microsoft Office)
VNC (this kind of software started on Linux)
WinGIMP (port of GIMP, some photo editing software)
Opera [closed-source]
Firefox

These are just a few (the first few programs I found on this computer). Not all of them are open source, and not all of them are free.

However, I also am not entirely for open source myself. As long as corporations, like Microsoft, will wander around "legally stealing" code from open source projects, I will not like to release source code. They can use code taken from an open source project, or base theirs on it, and they will be "legal" (according to their lawyer). Since their code is closed source, there is no way to prove they stole code from an open source project. It is also the main reason why Teamspeak will not go open source.
That is also why I do not buy anything from them anymore and encourage people not to buy anything from them either. You have Windows and like it? No problem, stick with it, but know there are free alternatives. Also, know that Linux was designed to run on the slowest of the "modern computers" (Pentium 1 and up), which doesn't limit its abilities to that since there are plenty of extensions to make it look sometimes better than XP, but Windows Vista requires you to have a super computer (not really, but the requirements are very high) when the main objective of an operating system is to "manage efficiently the system resources". Windows XP? You try running that on a 233MHz without too much lag.

To sum it all: Don't release your code if your potential competitors are corporations, they will steal your code then say you stole theirs. =P
To sum it even more: Fine peppy, don't release your code, you meanie! lol

-- Wolf --
PS: Sorry if some parts of this post were off-topic.
PPS: You could always have a basic free version, and an advanced version in which people would need to pay.
PPPS: I still want that drunk mode. =P

You went way offtopic there, and you know what's funny? Linux people have to write those huge walls of text as an argument as why linux is a user-friendly OS (which mostly isn't), but still, Windows keeps being the default and only alternative to end-users. Gives ya something to think on, huh?

In my honest opinion, Linux belongs on laptops. Mine runs quite a bit faster with Ubuntu than XP (it's pretty old. 750MHz, 256MB ram, etc)

as to Wolf, I don't think you caught the meaning of my last post.

Kylecito wrote:

You went way offtopic there, and you know what's funny? Linux people have to write those huge walls of text as an argument as why linux is a user-friendly OS (which mostly isn't), but still, Windows keeps being the default and only alternative to end-users. Gives ya something to think on, huh?

Windows comes installed in almost all new PCs that are sold because of Microsoft's monopoly and vendor lock-in. That, in turn, keeps the Linux install base small, which in turn doesn't give an incentive to game developers and popular application makers to port their stuff to Linux. It's a vicious cycle. There's more to it than that (what OS people know from their workplace, what they think is a computer, etc.), but that's a simplified version.

It's slowly changing, though, and Linux is getting better and its userbase is slowly increasing.

Requesting that part of this topic be split into a "Kylecito hates Linux" thread and moved to Random.

sanchny wrote:

It's slowly changing, though, and Linux is getting better and its userbase is slowly increasing.

Requesting that part of this topic be split into a "Kylecito hates Linux" thread and moved to Random.

Let's emphasise the slowly part of that. They ahve been saying this for years, but linux still has no place on a desktop apart from being used to show off XGL... it still fits best on the server/embedded device market, and I think things will stay that way for the forseeable future.

sanchny wrote:

Requesting that part of this topic be split into a "Kylecito hates Linux-fanboys" thread and moved to Random.

fixed

optionally: "Kylecito hates everything" that'd be really spot-on also

because of Microsoft's monopoly and vendor lock-in

Although Windows is by far the most popular operating system, it's good to see that at least IE is being pushed back by Firefox. I think I remember seeing on isohunt that users visiting their site using FF exceeded those using IE.

Echo49 wrote:

because of Microsoft's monopoly and vendor lock-in

Although Windows is by far the most popular operating system, it's good to see that at least IE is being pushed back by Firefox. I think I remember seeing on isohunt that users visiting their site using FF exceeded those using IE.

Not to be picky but, do you think people who visit isohunt are even a 8% of the users of the internet? ;P I'm sure people who only use the internet to check mail and watch the news are a majority and use IE. This doesn't mean I like IE of course.

Kylecito wrote:

optionally: "Kylecito hates everything" that'd be really spot-on also

You know what else Kylecito hates? Puppies. And very small puppy-sized dogs.

Kylecito wrote:

Not to be picky but, do you think people who visit isohunt are even a 8% of the users of the internet? ;P I'm sure people who only use the internet to check mail and watch the news are a majority and use IE. This doesn't mean I like IE of course.

I think overall FF users are increasing.

We can get peppy to monitor this site =P

Echo49 wrote:

I think overall FF users are increasing.

We can get peppy to monitor this site =P

Now, I do not like IE, and I'm quite happy with Firefox, but I don't think using this site would be fair as a statistic for various reasons. One, we don't adhere to Ky's point of simply checking mail and viewing news. Second, the content of this site is largely centered around the EBA/Ouendan culture and, being predominantly English, this means that most of us are relatively internet-savvy (Ouendan being entirely absent in our offline communities), and the more internet-savvy the populace is, the less likely it is that people use IE.

awp wrote:

the content of this site is largely centered around the EBA/Ouendan culture and, being predominantly English, ...

WHAT?!

awp wrote:

Ouendan being entirely absent in our offline communities

WHAT?!?!

If it weren't for the internet I think 99% of Canada wouldn't know what the hell Osu! Tatake! Ouendan! was.

I can't speak for any other countries, but I imagine most of the European countries are in the same boat.

I assure you a lot MORE than 99% of the WORLD wouldn't know about Ouendan if it weren't for the Internet. In fact, 99% of the world probably wouldn't know ANYTHING without the Internet, or more specifically, without Wiki and Google.

Also, there's a game called Elite Beat Agents which happens to be floating around. Recently released in Europe and Korea as well, I believe. I'm sure many of our members would have been attracted to osu! through EBA rather than just Ouendan, Ouendan, Ouendan.

As for this community being predominantly English, I have NO IDEA where you got that notion from We may use English as our means of communication here, but from what I see it's pretty diverse...

Sorry for going off topic (this thread went off topic ages ago - something about sources or something?) but I found a few things you mentioned to be a bit... misconstrued?

Try googling osu.ppy.sh and see the percentage of hk sites linking here. its crazy shiz.

eyup wrote:

Also, there's a game called Elite Beat Agents

what nonsense is this?

I must investigate.

guys i think eyup is pretty mad he started using bold text. BOLD text

Be that as it may, spare the italics, man!

we are way off topic lol

clm down ^^;

Bah, the other day, I was bored. And when I am bored, I usually pick on people or write long posts about everything and nothing. Sorry about that. At the time of writing that post, I had slept 8 hours in about 4 nights, so I was also tired, which makes me lose focus too. =P Just don't take anything I wrote personal nor serious. Hell, I never am serious about things, except when I'm being serious.

Anyways, to be more "in-topic": the sources are not being released because peppy is a meanie. I heard him say, with a weird voice: "My precious... code..." =P

-- Wolf --

Well the other issue is that I would not be able to release my code without at least 1 week of focus on tidying/cleaning things up. Not that it is overly messy, but I am quite fussy and wouldn't release something half-assed (ie. code without comments, or code not as optimised as it could be). And I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather work on new features than pointlessly do this at the current stage.

And there's always the IP issues you face releasing code. I mean its fine when it is a community project which can be contributed to by many, but when you have a single developer and little need for community input into the code-base, the benefits start to disappear.

I am 99% sure that if I released source code, you would see some chinese (i'm not singling out here, i swear) ripping the game off and making their own clone with no credit to the original. I guarantee it.

Well, I would have said Korean, but yeah people would definitely jack it and start doing their own things.

I think by "release the sources" perhaps it was meant "to a few trusted individuals who will try to port it to the DS" or something. I don't know.

I'm tired.

awp wrote:

I think by "release the sources" perhaps it was meant "to a few trusted individuals who will try to port it to the DS"

Already have done this. My trust is not something easily earned though!

I am 99% sure that if I released source code, you would see some chinese (i'm not singling out here, i swear) ripping the game off and making their own clone with no credit to the original. I guarantee it.

And why do you think that? All the excellent games of the open source community such as battle for wesnoth, frozen bubble, cube.... never know this ending.

Kylecito wrote:

Here's a suggestion for people that can't play this game in Linux:
Don't use linux. Use Windows. Games run on Windows.
-Kylecito out.

I use Linux for different purposes, and it does the job better. Windows games that run in Linux usually run good enough, anyway.

I don't know where this "Windows vs Linux" war came from, but I'd very much like to see a Linux port. If the author can't be arsed, I'll try to play with Wine. If it doesn't work (yet), I won't bother as Clickbeat (a similar game) does work in Linux and I don't run Windows much anymore.

Oh, btw, "Games don't run in Linux" is one horrible misconception. Have you ever used the system? Other than "more than 2 years ago", I mean.

EDIT: hm, Kylecito seems to be the one provoking people using other systems, here. Why? :-/

EDIT 2: by the way, what are the chances of this game ever being ported? The .NET stuff is already there, so that can be handled with Mono. But what about the DX part?

YET ANOTHER EDIT: ooops, sorry for reviving an old flame war.

DaVince wrote:

...I'd very much like to see a Linux port. If the author can't be arsed, I'll try to play with Wine. If it doesn't work (yet), I won't bother as Clickbeat (a similar game) does work in Linux and I don't run Windows much anymore.

A linux version would be quite possible once XNA/.NET2.0 is supported by mono. Until then, go have some fun with Wine. And no - I can't be arsed rewriting a large portion of the code to support a userbase that is so tiny. I'd rather work on improving the game on an operating system on the most accessible OS in the world that every (newish) PC can run.

FYI, .Net 2.0 is only partially supported in mono, and Mono.Xna still seems quite early in development. If both of these prereqs are made available, porting to linux should be a single-day task.

Good luck with wine - please report your success or failure story

Tough luck - I need the .NET framework, which won't install in Wine, so I'll have to wait until Wine is so far as to support .NET using Mono. It looks like they're working on that already, though, so maybe it'll work later.

peppy wrote:

My trust is not something easily earned though!

Hahahaha it would be so ironic if I edited this post to something of questionable sexual preference =3

Also, a lot of new(ish) computers have decently sized harddrives, so why not just pirate and dual-boot XP specifically for playing Windows-only games?

awp wrote:

Also, a lot of new(ish) computers have decently sized harddrives, so why not just pirate and dual-boot XP specifically for playing Windows-only games?

Thats what all my linux elitist friends do .

peppy wrote:

My trust is not something easily earned though!

*evil laugh*

As I said, I do have Windows, and I even have it legitimately (came with my PC). I used it for years. I know how to use it.
Anyway, I'll only go to Windows when I have to go to Windows, which isn't very often anymore. I'll be sure to install it when I'm in there.

EDIT: lol, elitist. I think if any system works good for you, better than others, or does what you want better, you should stick with that system. Windows can do a lot, so why not use it if you like that? I'm only one of the few in my environment using Linux.

elitist meaning pushing your operating system beliefs on others. Kinda like Ky being a Windows elitist.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

When you talk about code sources, you almost always have to talk about Linux. It's like a law.