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[Discussion] Deprecated mode icons

posted
Total Posts
17
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
Topic Starter
ZiRoX
Latest rules say "[mode icons] used to have an actual meaning, but they do not have anymore. Using them brings you nothing, expresses nothing and does nothing. So don't use them". Personally, I disagree with the "expresses nothing and does nothing", they did express that you were satisfied with that mode specific difficulties, letting other BNs know that, in your opinion, those diffs were ready.

So (example), what if someone wants to qualify some map with CtB diffs? With the current rules, he should come to any CtB-capable/confident/idk BN for help. So that BN checks the diffs, which may take some time, and give his consent, be it through in-game PM, forum PM or posting in the thread. As for PMs, they could be kept in private and leave no record. As for posting in the thread, that's the same way we did with icons, except without the icon (see p/1903600 for reference).

So, why is using icons discouraged? Without the icons, the post approving some specific mode difficulties is less noticeable, so they helped with communication between BNs in hybrid mapsets. And benefits aside, they didn't do any harm: they weren't prone to icon spamming as they didn't give BN score, and they didn't give any priority over other beatmaps in the forums. I think icons shouldn't be deprecated, and that this rule/guideline about not using them is not necessary at all and should be removed.

Discuss!
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
I agree completely. The phrasing of the rule made it seem as if non-standard difficulties were never meant to be quality tested or something.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I think mode-specific icons really help. Especially for BN's who don't have experience in that particular mode. You are going to have quality issues if you expect standard-only BN's to bubble hybrid sets with taiko/ctb/mania. And people who check taiko/ctbmania are doing BN work but not receiving any credit which is kind of sad.

Realistically, you either need to find mode-specific BN's to check each mode, or get a BN not well-versed in the specific mode to just yolo bubble/rank it. The former is obviously much better, but not rewarding.

The alternative should not have to be finding a BN who can mod two, three or even all four mods adequately.
Yuii-
2,503 posts
Joined July 2013
Yuii-
I think this is how the BAT used to work. Even if I agree with the points stated, we will have to adapt to some things up to the point of learning all the game modes as much as we can.

Every modder should be aware of what he is doing if he is willing to bubble/qualify X map. This is kinda interesting, to my point of view, but it will definitely take more time to qualify certain things.

I just dislike the fact of calling specific icons as non-important, because they existed for a reason after all!

Let's see what happens \:D/
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Well, I think the icons are actually good, to show other mode BN are fine with the map
I however also think Iconed maps should get priority (so it says bubbles/Icons/Normal maps)
It would be even better if Pops and DQ's are also in it, so like
Bubble/DQ/Icon/Pop/Normal maps
Maybe they would be more meaningful then
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
I think there are good and bad points about this - on the one hand, it will encourage BNs who want to push a map forward but are unfamiliar in a particular mode to either a) learn modding the mode themselves to a degree, or b) seek advice/discuss with (an)other BN(s) who have more experience in the mode, and I think it removes the element of "oh this mapset has a circle/drum/apple/piano icon so these diffs must be fine", which breeds complacency and can lead to a rushed qualification.

On the other hand, I feel it's a little naïve to suggest that mode-specific icons aren't helpful if used properly, and I agree with a lot of the points already raised. If another BN messaged me to say "I want to bubble this hybrid set, do you mind checking the circle/apple first?" (just a personal example based on what I feel comfortable modding, can of course be extended to all modes) then I'd be totally fine with that. Of course this can easily be applied to the "non-mode-specific-bubble" scenario though, so maybe this isn't the best argument.

Just trying to see both sides of the story, I don't have an issue either way. I saw no reason to get rid of mode-specific bubbles, but if the rules say we go on without them from now on I'm not going to throw a fit about it.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
This is how things have worked for...almost a year if not more now. There are no mode-specific BNs (at least nothing official in terms of labeling). The usage of mode-specific icons does not grant any reward/point-increase/decrease for the person who places it. Ultimately, it is the job of the bubbler and qualifier to see if the set is ready for ranked status. Are mode-specific icons good reassurance? Sure, I can agree with that. However, I encourage all BNs to realize that mode-specific icons are not the end all, be all for hybrid mapsets. Use your own intuition, ability, and communication with experts in various modes to help guide you in your decisions. Those who help on hybrid mapsets can still be rewarded for their efforts through modding them (and perhaps bubbling/qualifying if they feel confident). Learning a new mode can help too!

In the end, however, the bubbler and the qualifier are the ones who are responsible for the set - mode-specific BNs do not exist, therefore there is no need for mode-specific icons. Personally, they never meant any harm previously since people understood that they meant nothing other then the fact that someone who claims to have the ability to evaluate the map, has. I can see both sides to the argument but I'm more in favor of the rule as is.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
Topic Starter
ZiRoX

Lust wrote:

This is how things have worked for...almost a year if not more now. There are no mode-specific BNs (at least nothing official in terms of labeling). The usage of mode-specific icons does not grant any reward/point-increase/decrease for the person who places it. Ultimately, it is the job of the bubbler and qualifier to see if the set is ready for ranked status. Are mode-specific icons good reassurance? Sure, I can agree with that. However, I encourage all BNs to realize that mode-specific icons are not the end all, be all for hybrid mapsets. Use your own intuition, ability, and communication with experts in various modes to help guide you in your decisions. Those who help on hybrid mapsets can still be rewarded for their efforts through modding them (and perhaps bubbling/qualifying if they feel confident). Learning a new mode can help too!

In the end, however, the bubbler and the qualifier are the ones who are responsible for the set - mode-specific BNs do not exist, therefore there is no need for mode-specific icons. Personally, they never meant any harm previously since people understood that they meant nothing other then the fact that someone who claims to have the ability to evaluate the map, has. I can see both sides to the argument but I'm more in favor of the rule as is.
Icons have been used until recently, even though the "rule" has been on the BN information doc for a long time. It hasn't worked like that for a year. What has been different is that in the last year they weren't required at all (but reassuring, as you say), in comparison to when mode-specific BATs existed and they were mandatory.

Thing is, (almost) everything works the same with or without icons: the BN you ask for help/the BN that places the icon doesn't get rewarded (except by modding), and doesn't get the blame for any potential DQ, and so on. Instead of telling someone on PM (private) or posting that the CtB diffs are fine (which may be harder to find because of mods, mods reply and random comments, especially on hybrid mapsets), I can place an icon that expresses the same in a public and noticeable way. That's the only difference, the icons help in communication between BNs.

OzzyOzrock wrote:

I agree completely. The phrasing of the rule made it seem as if non-standard difficulties were never meant to be quality tested or something.
They have to be quality tested, but almost in "one go" for all modes. It would work if we were machines capable of checking anything almost inmediately on request.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Lust wrote:

Learning a new mode can help too!
Whilst you are right at this point its bad to think this way. You can't just tell players to learn playing Extra difficulties from one day to another. They can't. Learning another game mode takes time, a lot of it. And we can take the osu!+taiko or osu!+CtB for example, all specific mode difficulties contains at least one difficulty where higher skill level required. This shouldn't be the right way to go.

When I was a BN even though I knew iconing the mapset gives no reward but I didn't care. I did my part and that was satisfying enough. They was useful to all of us. If BNs only checking maps to increase their so called scores, thats bad. Bad because they lost the fun factor and only aiming to be the first, which is good somewhat but shouldn't be the main objective.

Instead of forbidding the usage of those icons it would be better to implement to multiple icon system. Where the map could have taiko and CtB (for example) at the same time before someone checking the final, osu! mode and bubble it. It was much better organized without to looking through 3-4-5-.... page to find the mode icons.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The icons meant nothing for a year already. We considered them obsolete at the day we founded the QAT.
I told people to use them as help. But they fulfill no formal purpose, neither do they mark the map as sort of nominated. The entire attribution and responsibility for a mapset still resides on the two nominations (bubble/heart).
All mode icons were entirely ignored since a year by us. They never counted as mod, neither as icon, neither as half nomination.
They meant nothing formally. And they still don't.
We just added that to the doc to make that clear AGAIN. Nothing to discuss here.

The mode icons were neither used three years ago. All BATs checked the entire hybrid sets on their own. And they survived. Your argument of "everyone has to check everything" is invalid, because even WHILE the BAT were using the icons, every bubbler and ranker was STILL SUPPOSED to check the ENTIRE set, even WITH ICONS PLACED.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
Topic Starter
ZiRoX

Loctav wrote:

I told people to use them as help.
They serve as help, and should continue being one. But the wording makes it look like they're completely forbidden.

Loctav wrote:

But they fulfill no formal purpose, neither do they mark the map as sort of nominated. The entire attribution and responsibility for a mapset still resides on the two nominations (bubble/heart). All mode icons were entirely ignored since a year by us. They never counted as mod, neither as icon, neither as half nomination.
Already aware of that, and has been mentioned: they don't give any priority, they don't give any score nor penalty (that covers the part of attribution and responsability on the nominators)

Loctav wrote:

They meant nothing formally. And they still don't. We just added that to the doc to make that clear AGAIN. Nothing to discuss here.
You could rewrite all that part considering what you've said. Something like "Mode specific-icons can be used to show other BNs you have checked that mode specific difficulties and approve them. However, their use isn't mandatory at all, as they aren't required for nominating a mapset, so they don't give any BN score or DQ penalty."

Loctav wrote:

The mode icons were neither used three years ago. All BATs checked the entire hybrid sets on their own. And they survived. Your argument of "everyone has to check everything" is invalid, because even WHILE the BAT were using the icons, every bubbler and ranker was STILL SUPPOSED to check the ENTIRE set, even WITH ICONS PLACED.
That's a given. Icons or not, all the diffs have to be checked. But it is reassuring when someone who has more experience than you in some mode has also checked them.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
obviously mode icons do nothing, but they certainly express the bn's satisfaction with their mode's difficulties.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
If a spread is Standard/Taiko, can someone who mods both modes bubble 'immediately'?
Or does an icon still need to take place?
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
He/she can bubble it.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Read what Loctav said, but I'm for keeping icons just for the reason that they harm no one and help organizing stuff better. Whether BNs gain points or not may be their own concern they can consider. They will gain kudosu anyway. I doubt there is anything else to say if you ask me. Just keep it and let BN organize themself by this. Supports teamwork as well. No problem here.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We formally do not differ between BNs that are profenient in their respective game mode. The profeniency is a perk that people declare on themselves and it is neither formally inscribed or fixated. You can bubble whatever you want. Just dont fuck up too badly, else you'll get haunted by those who actually know what they are doing.
MBomb
MBomb
I would just like to comment on something Loctav said to me when I first commented on this: "It's not in the rules, it's in the information". So basically (Correct me if I'm wrong though Loctav), we are still allowed to use them, it's just it's pointless to as they bring us nothing (But you still can place them, if you really want to).
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