Is a CRT / Box monitor worth it for osu?

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autoteleology

YayMii wrote:

In fact, mine goes up to 180Hz.
Five dollars says that refresh rate is at 640x480 (or maaaaybe 800x600) resolution
TakuMii

Philosofikal wrote:

YayMii wrote:

In fact, mine goes up to 180Hz.
Five dollars says that refresh rate is at 640x480 (or maaaaybe 800x600) resolution
Yeah, of course... but I can still go up to 140Hz at 1366x768 which is all I need for osu!.
And there are still better CRTs than this one out there. But as I said, I spent only $40 on this thing, so I'm okay.
ZenithPhantasm

Philosofikal wrote:

On my monitor, you can even adjust the duration of the strobe to decrease input lag (shorter strobe) or decrease motion blur (longer strobe)
Lol you have it backwards
autoteleology

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Philosofikal wrote:

On my monitor, you can even adjust the duration of the strobe to decrease input lag (shorter strobe) or decrease motion blur (longer strobe)
Lol you have it backwards
No, I do not. The shorter the strobe time, the less the input lag, since the strobe occurs at the beginning of the frame.

Your post would suggest that you believe that a strobing backlight functions like a CRT. A backlight is on, not off, for the majority of the duration.

YayMii wrote:

Yeah, of course... but I can still go up to 140Hz at 1366x768 which is all I need for osu!.
And there are still better CRTs than this one out there. But as I said, I spent only $40 on this thing, so I'm okay.
If you can do 140Hz at 1366x768, then your CRT is utterly exceptional. It's better than the Sony FW900, from what I've read, actually. What is the model of this screen?
TakuMii

Philosofikal wrote:

If you can do 140Hz at 1366x768, then your CRT is utterly exceptional. It's better than the Sony FW900, from what I've read, actually. What is the model of this screen?
It's a Viewsonic PF815. It actually has around the same specs refresh-rate-wise and resolution-wise compared to the FW900 (both have 121kHz horizontal refresh rate, so both monitors can handle 1366x768@140Hz, but the FW900 only maxes out at 160Hz vertical compared to my 180Hz). The only thing that the FW900 has over this is a wider screen size and aspect ratio (22.5" 16:10 vs 20" 4:3), but I'm completely fine running osu! in a letterbox and playing my FPSes in 4:3 so it doesn't really bother me.
ZenithPhantasm

Philosofikal wrote:

No, I do not. The shorter the strobe time, the less the input lag, since the strobe occurs at the beginning of the frame.

Your post would suggest that you believe that a strobing backlight functions like a CRT. A backlight is on, not off, for the majority of the duration.
The backlight is only on when the frame is completed. For the majority of the time it is off.

Taken from blurbusters.com
autoteleology
When I said "strobe", I meant when the backlight is off (I realize now after reading more that it is used to refer when it is turning on, and not turning off).

It's also variable how long the strobe lasts. You can set it anywhere from 0.5ms to 5ms on my monitor. Usually, it's correct that it's off the majority of the time (the shorter it is, the less motion blur, but the screen can get very dark). It's a fixed time, however (unless you have variable refresh like Freesync) - the page on Blur Busters is technically correct, but quite misleading.
ZenithPhantasm

Philosofikal wrote:

When I said "strobe", I meant when the backlight is off (I realize now after reading more that it is used to refer when it is turning on, and not turning off).

It's also variable how long the strobe lasts. You can set it anywhere from 0.5ms to 5ms on my monitor. Usually, it's correct that it's off the majority of the time (the shorter it is, the less motion blur, but the screen can get very dark). It's a fixed time, however (unless you have variable refresh like Freesync) - the page on Blur Busters is technically correct, but quite misleading.
Or rather they were correct and you were wrong
autoteleology
The only part that I was wrong about is almost completely trivial, you're still wrong about the fact that Lightboost is a significant contributor to input lag on an LCD monitor, unless you're some kind of superhuman that can detect a 4ms delay (and you're not because you have a hit accuracy of 90% which is pathetic). On any LCD with Lightboost, you're already playing at 120fps where the input lag is already fast approaching CRT levels, and when LCDs get fast enough to strobe in the middle or beginning of a frame, at a lower strobe duration and faster FPS than a CRT, it won't matter.

As for whether or not a CRT is worth it? If you can easily find the right one in good condition for a reasonable price, and your primary concern is gaming, right now the answer is yes. If you care about resolution, color, eye health, aesthetics, durability, space, or the fact they weigh a ton (I had a 36'' WEGA Trinitron in my bedroom before I moved out that weighed 250 pounds) more than gaming, then no.
Endaris

Philosofikal wrote:

(and you're not because you have a hit accuracy of 90% which is pathetic)
You're realizing that you're talking to RSI-Relax-chan with most topplays being a year old?
Also why shouldn't you be able to detect a constant 4ms delay when you can also get the offsets of uninherited timing sections on the perfect ms-value+-1ms by closely watching and comparing?
placeholder
Lightboost doesn't do anything to input lag, it just reduces perceived motion blur (pixels transitioning are not easily seen, backlight is on after the image is drawn on screen - does nothing to get the image drawn faster).

Wikipedia on crt input lag:

Wikipedia wrote:

Image adjustments typically involved reshaping the signal waveform but without storage, so the image is written to the screen as fast as it is received, with only nanoseconds of delay for the signal to traverse the wiring inside the device from input to the screen.
Best lcds are around 10ms from what i can find. http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

Input lag isn't such an issue in osu!, but it does make cursor feel more responsive and enjoyable to move (especially after being used to higher input lag).
ZenithPhantasm

jaaakb wrote:

Lightboost doesn't do anything to input lag, it just reduces perceived motion blur (pixels transitioning are not easily seen, backlight is on after the image is drawn on screen - does nothing to get the image drawn faster).

Wikipedia on crt input lag:

Wikipedia wrote:

Image adjustments typically involved reshaping the signal waveform but without storage, so the image is written to the screen as fast as it is received, with only nanoseconds of delay for the signal to traverse the wiring inside the device from input to the screen.
Best lcds are around 10ms from what i can find. http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

Input lag isn't such an issue in osu!, but it does make cursor feel more responsive and enjoyable to move (especially after being used to higher input lag).
There is input lag because for some monitors the refresh rate have to be lowered from 144hz to 120hz and the backlight is only strobed once the frame is completed which adds a few more ms. In total there's probably 5-10ms more lag with lightboost on.
autoteleology
The difference between 120Hz and 144Hz is almost completely negligible. You can also use 144Hz with modern backlight strobing monitors, but it's not worth it due to the additional resources and occasional incompatibilities (good luck recording or streaming while rendering at 144Hz). There's also a cool vertical total trick that works on NVIDIA cards that only works at 120Hz or below due to bandwidth.

The only real difference between a CRT and a backlight strobing monitor is a) pixel response time and b) the fact that the strobe occurs at the end of the frame instead of at the beginning, because of the former (and these things will all change in the near future).

Lightboost is shit. I had the first real Lightboost monitor (the VG248QE) and it was a huge hassle and made all the colors very washed out. The ToastyX utility is pure ass and hardly ever worked right. There are better implementations of backlight strobes nowadays (like BenQ's).

Backlight strobe lag is basically just however long you set the backlight to turn off, and when you set the strobe period to be. It is not an intelligent system unless you're using a variable refresh monitor (and then there are complex algorithms that determine those factors automatically). The only reason the strobe is currently or usually at the end of the frame is because that's when you have the greatest chance of having most of the pixels properly transitioned (and therefore reducing ghosting, which becomes far more visible due to the lack of motion blur). The later the strobe period, and the shorter the strobe, the more lag, but the better picture.
ZenithPhantasm

YayMii wrote:

I got my trusty CRT for $40 when LightBoost was already a thing.
In fact, mine goes up to 180Hz.
Im so jelly :(
placeholder

Philosofikal wrote:

If you care about resolution, color, eye health, aesthetics, durability, space, or the fact they weigh a ton (I had a 36'' WEGA Trinitron in my bedroom before I moved out that weighed 250 pounds) more than gaming, then no.
colors are much better on crts than on gaming lcds (blacks, contrast, depends on crt. lcds made to have good image do compare, but aren't very good for watching fast paced stuff)

you can get a nice resolution with a good refresh rate for when you want to use one (1920*1200 94hz is what i usually use, but can do 2560*1440 at 72hz or something, which is bad i must admit)

you shouldn't get eyestrain watching a high refresh rate crt (i used to get headaches watching older crts at 60-75hz when i was a kid, flicker is visible), strobe can cause eye strain just the same #:

crts are durable. how would they still be in use after being discontinued years ago?

If anything, crts are the one monitor for gaming and image editing and whatever, if you can live up with the size. You had a crt television(Was it any good as a monitor? I've no idea. 100hz at 1080p seems pretty decend)
autoteleology

jaaakb wrote:

strobe can cause eye strain just the same #:
I disagree. A full backlit strobe, and not a scanning strobe, is almost impossible to see flicker at 120Hz. At 60Hz, it looks bad, but at 120Hz it's basically invisible except at rare moments.

crts are durable. how would they still be in use after being discontinued years ago?
It's not the fact that they aren't durable, in fact, they are usually built very well, but all of these motitora are old and tubes, among other things, don't last forever. It's fairly convoluted and analog technogy so a lot of things can go wrong with it at any time.

You had a crt television - was it any good as a monitor?
No. I only bought it for gaming - it had no computer inputs and only went up to 1080i. It was really not all that great to be honest. Maybe if it had an HDMI port it would have been better. :P
ZenithPhantasm

Philosofikal wrote:

No. I only bought it for gaming - it had no computer inputs and only went up to 1080i. It was really not all that great to be honest. Maybe if it had an HDMI port it would have been better. :P
If it had no computer inputs or hdmi that means you were limited to RCA connectors which only outputs 480i max
TakuMii

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Philosofikal wrote:

No. I only bought it for gaming - it had no computer inputs and only went up to 1080i. It was really not all that great to be honest. Maybe if it had an HDMI port it would have been better. :P
If it had no computer inputs or hdmi that means you were limited to RCA connectors which only outputs 480i max
HD CRTs had component video input and went up to 1080i...
tacchinotacchi
Where did you buy it? I can't find one, I only have a shifty 15" which maxes at 120hz at 640x480
ZenithPhantasm
Nice necro. To answer your question I suggest you check ebay. Every CRT Im aware off is discontinued so you will only be able to buy used ones.
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