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[invalid] Reworking HP Drain

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +0
Topic Starter
Kanri
Good evening Osu Community,

As a prologue, I've tried searching for recient topics on the matter under the searches of "drain" and "HP" if I have either missed a result or used inappropriate search querries and skiped a recient post on this matter I deeply apologize and request this thread to be taken down/archived. I am also of sincere belief that this section of the forum is most appropriate for my topic, if I am mistaken on this please move this topic to the appropriate section. Thank you.

I have been playing osu for quite a while now and am starting to feel ready to plunge into the worlds of Hard Rock mod and, although this issue already came to me beforehand it became more and more apparent playing with HR enabled, the HP drain over time especially on high HP levels seems to overstay its welcome from a challenge and become slightly unfair/disturb the game experience.

Many other rhythmgames/ddr's also have HP as a concept of passing/failing a map although most of them work purely based on hit/miss and not over time, which is a fair way of detecting if a player is capable of moving on or the play should be interrupted and considered failed. If the player has too many misses already it's likely to assume his performance will not improve from here.

So I don't think HP needs to be removed, although some could argue that Health/Drain is an unnecessary feature on a game that rates you by score but that's a whole different story entirely, but it needs to be ammended to bring back its sense of challenge. But lets collect first what I personally find a bit disturbing about HP Drain over time.

- Hard Rock becomes a very difficult mod to get into if the base HP exceeds 5-6 raising it to usually 9.8 or 10. A single miss will oftentimes lead to an unescapable failure especially if the map has slower parts in it. This can of course be mitigated with No Fail but this nearly obsoletes the Sudden Death mod and not everybody wants to grind the ability to full combo a song before wanting a ranked score on it. This leads to my second issue with HP Drain.

- Maps that have changes in tempo punish you unequally for mistakes. There is many maps that prove that even slower sections of a song can be mapped challenging but they also become extraordinarily unforgiving since, at least how I notice it, the drain does not accomodate to changes in pace and with a static HP loss over time mistakes during slower parts punish you way harder than the same amount of mistakes in a faster paced portion of the beatmap. This especially turns Hard Rock into Hard Rock + Sudden Death.

Here is what I think could solve this issue:_

Suggestion #1: Make the game never considered a beatmap failed unless the player has an actual MISS (0) hit in critical health.

Most rhythmgames that have no HP over time drain can't be failed without a miss on the note at which the game consideres the song failed. Which makes sense. Iif the player seems to be recovering from his inability to perform why abort the play here? This doesn't put other players at a disadvantage, most highly weighted scores in Ranking Lists are so improved upon that these scenarios never happen on a potential top ranked play.

Suggestion #2: Accomodate HP recovery from Geki/Katu beats to the speed of the song.

Probably one of the more technically difficult to implement changes that gives players a chance if they can consistently get Geki beats to secure themselves an HP buffer for a potential slip up or to reward fast recoveries.

Suggestion #3: Remove HP over time.

This one is obviously the most radical and would probably be difficult to implement with how old the game is but one can argue that simply having HP work on a hit/miss base like many other games could work just as well.


What do you think of the matter? Do you find this issue does not need addressing or do you have another suggestion on how to improve the game on this matter? Feel free to share!

With regards,
Kanri
GhostFrog
Drain as it is now does have some issues (like making Mendes literally impossible to pass with HR; inability to fail a map with SS at the very least would be a worthwhile addition), but I don't agree with most of what you said. For example, being able to fail in a "drain section" without missing is imo a feature rather than a bug. You shouldn't be missing very many notes if the note density is that low, so hitting every note but getting a ton of 100s is pretty much failing the section completely and I think it's fine that it can cause you to fail the map. I kind of like the hp-over-time system because it gives a sense of urgency and forces you to do reasonably well on all parts of the map in order to pass. Nothing wrong with hp systems like the one in taiko where pass/fail is determined by performance over the entire map, but I think the current hp system matches the scoring system pretty well - the scoring system penalizes individual misses very hard because of the heavily combo-based scoring system and the hp system penalizes individual mistakes harder because of the localized nature of the fail criterion.

I do get what you don't like about drain and it can be frustrating on some maps with either really high hp settings or harsh drain sections, but overall I don't think it's bad.
Oinari-sama
This has been raised and denied many times before, you'll know after just a little searching around: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/search?cx=00771494 ... search.php The bottom line is that HR is meant to make everything harder.

I'll leave two alternatives here to get you started, you can find more live threads with some searching around:

t/141204
t/96065
Topic Starter
Kanri

Oinari-sama wrote:

This has been raised and denied many times before, you'll know after just a little searching around: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/search?cx=00771494 ... search.php The bottom line is that HR is meant to make everything harder.

I'll leave two alternatives here to get you started, you can find more live threads with some searching around:

t/141204
t/96065
Hello Oinari-sama,

I find it very, very arguable to deem a topic invalid because something "relatively similar" (none of them really entail if it were possible to code a play as a failure without missing a note on that very moment) has been posted a multitude of years ago since viewpoints on game design even from developers themselves might change over time and many games would just turn stale if they wouldn't. But if thats how the game operates then so be it.

An answer to GhostFrog,

I think thats where our understandings of what 100's and 50's are differ. 100's and 50's are successful hits that (depending on OD setting) are within a margin of time that is according to the beat but slightly before or after to the point where the full reward (300) can't be given but they're not failures. I've had it happen that I would play a map with HDHR and miss a note somewhere in the beginning and the map then later has a slow part that I hit perfectly fine and 100% accurate coming up to a 2 second standstill with no hitcircles and the drain will just kill me there although I got nothing but 300's in the last 15-20 seconds prior and that for instance is a situation that I find somewhat injust.

My last few cents on the matter I guess if what the moderator said holds true this will be archived in short order anyway, unfortunate.

With regards,
Kanri.
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