Well, I didn't find anything similar, but please tell me if something similar has already been suggested and rejected.

So, I thought about making some kind of "BN Token", just as the stars the Kudosus gives to your map, and use a certain amount of Kudosus to make/send that "BN Token"

Why ?

Well, beatmapping is a huge, and essential part of Osu. A lot of maps are being released, but they usually come from the same mappers.

Not that it is a bad things, it provides quality. But I saw that most of the time, a reason why there are ranked a lot more is that BATs/BNs post more on their threads, post on their own will on them, and so the ranking process is made easier for those huge mappers.

On the other hand, most of the new mappers I had the occasion to mod had few, or none BAT/BN mods.
I don't know about them, but I asked many BNs/BATs and got replied that they were busy. And I know they are, but also their queues are filled most of the time and it makes it harder for non-great mappers to actually get BNs to look at their map, even if their maps have a lot of Kuds.

How ?

Just as the Kudosus currently give a higher priority to the maps, why not use them to request a BN's check too ? It would make several things better :

1. New mappers will have to mod a lot, and so LOOK at other peoples' mapping to have kuds
2. This modding will increase their skill, and also the overall mapping quality may increase (for new mappers)
3. Mappers will have a higher chance to see their map checked
4. The ranking process will be more fair towards mappers with a few ranked maps

The gamemodes that the player wants to be checked should also be specified with that token, to provide the mapper a BN that fits the map. (For example, avoid a STD BN having to check a O!M map)

I don't have any idea about that "BN Token" price, because I don't have any idea of the real value of their check time. But I would say at least 25 Kud to be sure they aren't spammed.

Maybe add, on the BN side, one of those :

1. Greater amount of Kuds for answering to a Token request
2. Make a quota of requests to fullfill per month (or an average percentage)

A parallel solution would be to make the Token just as "Bubbled" or "Starred" symbols. It would mark the map as "Requesting BN with a higher priority than others".

This may also lead in a new value to "rank" BNs and be able to tell if they are more open to the community or no, and so this would also increase the trust we can have in the ones who answered more Tokens. Because Kudosus can only allow mappers to judge the quantity, but not if those were helpful to all of the community or just a part.

I like it, but 20-25 are a little too much IMO
I'd say 10-15 (or up to 20, but 25 is just to much)
Or do you mean total kudosu?

I meant trading those for a "BN Token" : 15-20 Kud => 1 BN Token
Just like the current exchange rate is 1 Kud => 1 Star

So no, not the total Kudosus. Just a fixed amount that will be spent to obtain the token.

I thinks it's better to make it more like a "Purchasable item" which uses token as the money to buy it.

Ahh
That's good
Support (because I can buy 2 now probably)

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

Well, that's the part I don't have any great answer. I know that BNs have their lives, their free time, and also their will about modding maps, so I know that even those tokens can't do 100% of the job, and that BNs won't change their behaviour in a blink, because they have constraints, and a safezone about modding.

So maybe add, on the BN side, one of those :

1. Greater amount of Kuds for answering to a Token request
2. Make a quota of requests to fullfill per month (or an average percentage)

A parallel solution would be to make the Token just as "Bubbled" or "Starred" symbols. It would mark the map as "Requesting BN with a higher priority than others".

This may also lead in a new value to "rank" BNs and be able to tell if they are more open to the community or no, and so this would also increase the trust we can have in the ones who answered more Tokens. Because Kudosus can only allow mappers to judge the quantity, but not if those were helpful to all of the community or just a part.

But I would also like a BN's opinion about this idea, to see what could be really useful for both sides.

Good idea make it please!

Well, I think we'll need a BN's opinion first

ikin5050 wrote:

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

I have no good ideas either. we don't care about kudosu and I can't see a monthly quota working out for 100 BN unless there are enough of these requests out there.

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

So you say that we should keep the current state of things, where BNs mod themselves but barely mod anybody else, unless they have some great rank among mappers ?

Why can't a quota work ? It can depend on how many predicted request are submitted. Or just make a personal quota of replied request versus unreplied per BN, since I assume some request won't be answered.

That's why I suggested this. I think there would be requests, since a lot of mappers are struggling with that problem. Getting mods is easy, getting BN mods is one of the hardest things ever for a newcomer to mapping.

Problem is we need that BN validate our maps, no matter how many mods we have, or how many stars. But BNs don't mod those maps, so I suggested this to balance things between the two sides.

xxdeathx wrote:

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

This is my main reason. I dont want to befored upon a map I either dont like or "cant fix", as it might be the complete opposite of my style and/or unrankable itself.

Also, I think we should wait what Modding v2 has to offer. Maybe that'll give us something similar.

Also, I'd say that 15 is too low. 15 is basically nothing. Too easy to earn for a beginner and experienced players have too much http://puu.sh/gpldw/910da571fc.png
I could call myself way too many times and "take BNs away from others".

Well, even unwanted maps need to be ranked if they are ready to be. Osu should be open to all kind of musics, not only the popular touhou and anime musics (even though many other genres exist and are ranked, touhou and animes look like the most preferred genres here).

And wasn't the goal of the former MAT to help newcomers ? Since they're not here anymore, who should take their role ? The only experienced people, labelled as such, are the BNs and the QAT, so it should be part of their job too, and they shouldn't ignore newcomers, or mapping styles they dislike.

Well, I am also looking towards Modding v2, but in the end (as far as I understood about it), we'll keep a semi-BAT, so in the end, it'll be the same. Experienced modders and BAT will still mod themselves and increase the priority of their maps, by completing requests in their queues.
And even though small mappers will have some benefits, it'll still be a long process that will depend on the BATs' because they have the final decision, even though it's supposed to be automated.

I don't recall exactly the priority modificators coming from modding from your queue and having mods, but they are meaningless and the usuall ultra-modding of BAT and elite mappers between themselves will take advantage of that priority, and the situation won't change.

About the Token's cost, that why I said "I don't know" in the initial post. I though 25 (which was my first guess) was a good amount to start. yes, it won't change anything for elite mappers, who have plenty of kuds, but it'll change a lot of things for newcomers. They'll be forced to mod, and they'll be rewarded by that BAT mods that nobody except the elite mappers and BATs can get.

My goal here is to make things a bit more faire for newcomers. That's all. it won't advantage elitem appers, but they are already overly advantaged, as well as the BATs, so nothing needs to change for them (as far as I can see, looking at their beatmaps' forum subject, the short amount of time required for them to be ranked, and the huge amount of BAT mods on them)

Before answering this; This is my view. I tend to have a different view than most others, so keep that in mind.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Well, even unwanted maps need to be ranked if they are ready to be. Osu should be open to all kind of musics, not only the popular touhou and anime musics (even though many other genres exist and are ranked, touhou and animes look like the most preferred genres here).

I agree with you here, but sadly you cant force anyone to do what they dont want to do. We've got plenty of BNs now that have different tastes. You just have to be lucky and find one that likes your music (which should not be difficult with japanese or english music for example)

JudgeTheDude wrote:

And wasn't the goal of the former MAT to help newcomers ? Since they're not here anymore, who should take their role ? The only experienced people, labelled as such, are the BNs and the QAT, so it should be part of their job too, and they shouldn't ignore newcomers, or mapping styles they dislike.

The thing is that we are far far away from what the MAT was orignially. We're not even a Team anymore. Every BN is free to do what he wants to or not, and that's what we're doing basically.
Ignoring newcomers is a thing, yes, but with the amount of new people trying to get into mapping, it might be extremely difficult to handle all of them to some extend. Either you help one person alot while a bigger amount of new mappers gets left behind - or you help a lager amount a little bit but that makes you unable to answer all the questions

JudgeTheDude wrote:

I don't recall exactly the priority modificators coming from modding from your queue and having mods, but they are meaningless and the usuall ultra-modding of BAT and elite mappers between themselves will take advantage of that priority, and the situation won't change.

I see it like this; Ofcourse, you want help friends if you can and if you know that a friend's map is already well made before modding even happened, youre more likely to drop a quick mod for him. You dont have to in-depth explain why something is wrong and you know that your friend might even drop a mod on your map himself - because that's what you did for him.
On other people's sets, you dont know whether it be a good, mediocore or bad map. Modding bad maps is not as fun as it is to mod a good map, since you have to doublecheck every singe object and make sure things fit - which they usually dont.
I'd assume thats why.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

My goal here is to make things a bit more faire for newcomers. That's all. it won't advantage elitem appers, but they are already overly advantaged, as well as the BATs, so nothing needs to change for them

Things will never really even out. If youre good at something, youre more likely to get something in return. Thats how the world works.
But here again, forcing something upon someone is a bad idea. If people knew that they'd be forced upon "bad" mapsets they dont like, they most likely wouldnt think about becoming a BN.

In the end, we just state the same things again and again.

The ranking process isn't good for the people who haven't got a reputation yet. And, in the end, it's naturally killing new mappers, because since they don't get BN modded, they can't be ranked, and by not having any map ranked, or a few, they aren't modded by Bs

The BNs can't be forced to mod (which I perfectly understand) and so usually won't mod maps from other mappers than their friends. So in the end, the system is made for BNs friends, and not the whole community. It can be easily seen by looking at most of the ranked maps. They are flooded with BAT posts, and so they are easily ranked, and they quality is improved quickly between theit submission and their rank.

We shouldn't force people to mod, but if they don't do what they are expected to do as BNs, what other choice do we have than set up a way to pay for maps being checked ? What I mean is that BN signed up, as far as i know, to nominate maps to be qualified, then ranked. I think a BN shouldn't disregard maps because they aren't from one of his friends. They are the only people able to rank maps here, and they should be fair.

Here, forcing them to mod would improve :

1. The new mappers' mapping quality by forcing them to mod in order to win kudosus, and pay for a BN check
2. The diversity of maps by making unwanted maps able to be checked
3. The ranking speed, by forcing someone actually competent in mapping to have a look at your map, instead of having a lot of not that useful mods
4. The overall number of mods with the new flow of mods coming from the newcomers wanting to earn kuds

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

Looking at these replies I admit, 15 is too low
But.... It also recommends newbies to mod, which is a good thing, and gives active modders, who in most cases also are good mappers, the opportunity to get their map ranked
I hope this'll happen, to make the modders get slightly more priority than others because they help out others as well

what

JudgeTheDude wrote:

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

this isn't true in the slightest, BNs control whether or not your map gets ranked. if they're something unrankable in it, anybody can see that, it's not a BNs job to find unrankable stuff in your map, you should have no unrankable stuff in your map before you go to a BN. that's the way it works.

a BNs job is not to play janitor for you

on topic, I think this is a great idea, would give a lot more use to KD since right now it seems to be overlooked a lot. I have a lot just sitting there unused

Farming kd to force peoples to mod your map ?

Just no =)


I know that how the system currently work isn't the best but what you suggest is just not a good idea.

what?!
to summoned your thread by BN, you need at least 15/30SP OR you need to ask BN to mod/check your map
very unnecessary thing this is.

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

Is that similar to your request?:


t/23174

just.... just no...

BNs also have their right to do whatever he/she want. you shouldn't rush them.

Krah wrote:

Just no =)

Farming 15 kudosus isn't even that hard if someone is just modding for kudosus

rank more maps

Maeglwn wrote:

JudgeTheDude wrote:

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

this isn't true in the slightest, BNs control whether or not your map gets ranked. if they're something unrankable in it, anybody can see that, it's not a BNs job to find unrankable stuff in your map, you should have no unrankable stuff in your map before you go to a BN. that's the way it works.

a BNs job is not to play janitor for you

on topic, I think this is a great idea, would give a lot more use to KD since right now it seems to be overlooked a lot. I have a lot just sitting there unused

Yes, I agree. But what I said here is that we should be able to have our maps qualified without BNs' approval, and their shob should be to disqualify unperfect maps, not qualify the maps they want.

Krah wrote:

Farming kd to force peoples to mod your map ?

Just no =)


I know that how the system currently work isn't the best but what you suggest is just not a good idea.

Well, it would at least make Kudosus useful, since they have no point right now. The only thing that matters about mapping nowadays is having BN friends. Kudos are useless and having a BN mod will make your map high-priority instantly because other bNs will come immediatly.

Genocide wrote:

what?!
to summoned your thread by BN, you need at least 15/30SP OR you need to ask BN to mod/check your map
very unnecessary thing this is.

The point would be to spend 25-30 Kudos to mark your map as "Requesting BN with high priority", or buy a token to request a mod from the BN team.
To make it clear : You have 200 kud -> Buy a Token -> You have 170 Kud. It's something you buy.
As baraatje states, if you don't have a BN friend, you can't get a mod through the regular ways (queue, IRC, MP...) because they won't answer you or won't mod you because they say they're busy.

baraatje123 wrote:

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

It's not only CTB, but all the mods. If you don't know any BN, you're screwed. BNs are busy modding their friends. Their queues are filled in seconds. And when you ask in-game, they always refuse if you aren't their friends. Problem is you can't get a BN mod through the current regular ways.

Arcubin wrote:

just.... just no...

BNs also have their right to do whatever he/she want. you shouldn't rush them.

Well, they applied to be BN, and so applied to mod people. If they don't want to mod people that aren't their friends, they shouldn't have been BNs in the first place, it's not like they've been forced to be. That's the problem, I think. They applied to that position, who is required to get your maps ranked, but don't mod other people than their friends, so it makes the ranking process really unbalanced.

Stefan wrote:

Is that similar to your request?:


t/23174

Look like it is. Lots of kuds, lots of mods, not ranked. But it looks like it's got some BAT mods, so I'm not sure.

Think about the BNs, they have real life and they can't just check every maps.
If they say they are busy they are probably busy. Everyone starts with no BN friends.
Their mods are not something you buy, have you seen how busy those BNs are dealing with different kinds of problems?

JudgeTheDude wrote:

If they don't want to mod people that aren't their friends, they shouldn't have been BNs in the first place

Hey, you shouldn't say to me what to do, BN is not some kind of work, BN is privilege, and we are totally free to use this privilege as we want.

omg lol what?

what about pople over 1000 kd?

i retain it nosence imo

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Think about the BNs, they have real life and they can't just check every maps.
If they say they are busy they are probably busy. Everyone starts with no BN friends.
Their mods are not something you buy, have you seen how busy those BNs are dealing with different kinds of problems?

If we could get mods through the regular way (queues, ask in-game, PM...) then buying BNs wouldn't become a necessity. As long as everyone has a change to get BN-modded, there aren't any problem. But for now, a majority of mappers can't get checked.

Kyubey wrote:

JudgeTheDude wrote:

If they don't want to mod people that aren't their friends, they shouldn't have been BNs in the first place

Hey, you shouldn't say to me what to do, BN is not some kind of work, BN is privilege, and we are totally free to use this privilege as we want.

I agree on that, but a privilege of some people shouldn't block the will of the majority. To be more precise, BNs' privilege shouldn't block other mappers.

Lally wrote:

omg lol what?

what about pople over 1000 kd?

i retain it nosence imo

Well, they can get a lot. My point was to make it more fair for new mappers. Elite mappers like you can already get all the BN mods they want. It was aimed toward the majority of newcomers, who don't have contacts through the BNs yet. It may not give any advantage to well known mappers, but it wasn't my goal in the first place. It was to give a chance to get BN-modded to everybody.

I don't aim to give more privileges to the elite, I just want the lower part to have better chances.

Why are BNs freaking out about this? It's not like your workload will necessarily be higher, as you already have a quota to maintain. Just imagine that instead of having to mod 3 maps (or whatever it is) a month to keep you in the green, you have to mod 2 maps and 1 from a pool of maps with this token thing. Also, there will be a lot of maps even in such a pool to choose from, so you won't be "forced" to mod something you don't like, and you can avoid duplicate BN mods on the same map by "claiming" them or something.

The problem right now for newcomers is that the more competent modders all became BNs, and have a bunch of these weird rules about what they will mod and whatnot. The best way for a newcomer to get better at mapping, is to get better mods, and modding themselves. Therefore BNs refusing to mod those maps generally means they'll never reach the quality BNs want to see before they will mod the map. Basically, it's almost impossible to get it to the point where it can be qualified, and BNs should help new mappers to get to that point.

You can add other restrictions such as only being able to nominate one of your own maps a month, and that if your map gets modded, and the BN deems it not ready, that map has to wait another 1-2 months before they can nominate it again for a BN mod.

Overall, I don't see how this would actually hurt the BNs in any way, as you'd just have to shift one of your required mods to be one from that pool of maps (or just have an overall higher score gained from a map modded in that pool, or something similar).

Basically, you're forced to mod one map in a pool of maps that probably will have enough diversity that you'll find a song you like.
More BNs focusing on new mappers will make it much easier for newcomers to learn and contribute themselves.
Newcomers will be forced to mod and give back to the community, to receive from the community.

So yeah, I dunno, is there any other reason BNs don't like this idea other than what I talk about above?

just wait for modding v2, the way the system works incorporates something similar to this

in the meanwhile, work hard to improve so that you can gain attention from nominators

Lust wrote:

just wait for modding v2, the way the system works incorporates something similar to this

in the meanwhile, work hard to improve so that you can gain attention from nominators

I'd agree on the "work hard" part if it was really something that mattered. Because the mod count, the time spent in Pending, and the Star Priority are clearly not a factor that makes your map more likely to be modded by a BN

And I've read about the system v2, but is there any ETA ? It's been around for 5-6 months, as far as I remember, and the idea may be older, since I only count here the time where I saw it the first time. So we should at least include this idea while the v2 isn't implemented yet.

CXu wrote:

Why are BNs freaking out about this? It's not like your workload will necessarily be higher, as you already have a quota to maintain. Just imagine that instead of having to mod 3 maps (or whatever it is) a month to keep you in the green, you have to mod 2 maps and 1 from a pool of maps with this token thing. Also, there will be a lot of maps even in such a pool to choose from, so you won't be "forced" to mod something you don't like, and you can avoid duplicate BN mods on the same map by "claiming" them or something.

The problem right now for newcomers is that the more competent modders all became BNs, and have a bunch of these weird rules about what they will mod and whatnot. The best way for a newcomer to get better at mapping, is to get better mods, and modding themselves. Therefore BNs refusing to mod those maps generally means they'll never reach the quality BNs want to see before they will mod the map. Basically, it's almost impossible to get it to the point where it can be qualified, and BNs should help new mappers to get to that point.

You can add other restrictions such as only being able to nominate one of your own maps a month, and that if your map gets modded, and the BN deems it not ready, that map has to wait another 1-2 months before they can nominate it again for a BN mod.

Overall, I don't see how this would actually hurt the BNs in any way, as you'd just have to shift one of your required mods to be one from that pool of maps (or just have an overall higher score gained from a map modded in that pool, or something similar).

Basically, you're forced to mod one map in a pool of maps that probably will have enough diversity that you'll find a song you like.
More BNs focusing on new mappers will make it much easier for newcomers to learn and contribute themselves.
Newcomers will be forced to mod and give back to the community, to receive from the community.

So yeah, I dunno, is there any other reason BNs don't like this idea other than what I talk about above?

You summed it up perfectly. I may add the idea, that we could also set up a vote system, when people play a Pending map, allowing it to be higher on the modding forums. The same way people put a 0-10 note on ranked maps, we can use a feature just like this to have a view of the map's quality, as seen by players and modders.

If I was allowed to choose from a pool of promoted maps, then I wouldn't have a problem with this system. In fact, I'd personally love it. This also means that the mapper themself has taken the time (Except you Mr. NC here) to look over other mapsets so they in turn could improve on their own sets. It gives more value to the KDs

What I don't agree with is this supposed 'forced summoning' thing that the OP was mentioning. Many of the BNs are getting this image that they have to mod the map, which violates the freedom we've been given as said directly in the BAT rules (this) that we can mod what we want.

I really do support being able to move/duplicate your map thread to a special forum in the pending maps section such as "BN Ready Maps" and have it listed by star priority there. Of course the map would NEED the +12 SP required for a bubble before you could do this action. The 'bonus' thing would encourage BNs to look at it as well. This is honestly a win win situation as long as no one is forced to mod anything.

It might also help simulate the upcoming Modding v2 in some ways, which is a pretty awesome idea. I've honestly had an idea of opening a queue similar to this, where users could post there maps upon reaching certain criteria to let us BNs know which ones are possibly ready. I'm not sure if "buying" your way into this is the best option, but having a way to encourage BNs to check these maps is what we need, even if it is through bonuses.

BNs are already REQUIRED to icon a certain amount of maps, and mod as well. Having that little extra bonus would help them out lots.

Another reason why new mappers don't get as much attention is because of disqualifications, and this is partially why BNs don't like touching inexperienced mappers. There is a higher risk of a map getting DQ'd from them, and the penalty from a DQ is pretty big sadly.

I hope a system where users can nominate their own maps exists in the near future, (modding v2 should be doing this maybe?) but as I mentioned, we BNs should not be forced to.

Everybody starts somewhere. Nobody looking at your map? Then mod to become a BN yourself and then mod for mod with the others once you do. Its not like the nominators are a closed group, work hard to hit that modder score and gain attention for your own work! It all builds up and certainly doesn't happen over night

for what do we have modding queues then? yes in this case is hard to get to it but not for all BNs =_=

Lanturn wrote:

If I was allowed to choose from a pool of promoted maps, then I wouldn't have a problem with this system. In fact, I'd personally love it. This also means that the mapper themself has taken the time (Except you Mr. NC here) to look over other mapsets so they in turn could improve on their own sets. It gives more value to the KDs

What I don't agree with is this supposed 'forced summoning' thing that the OP was mentioning. Many of the BNs are getting this image that they have to mod the map, which violates the freedom we've been given as said directly in the BAT rules (this) that we can mod what we want.

I really do support being able to move/duplicate your map thread to a special forum in the pending maps section such as "BN Ready Maps" and have it listed by star priority there. Of course the map would NEED the +12 SP required for a bubble before you could do this action. The 'bonus' thing would encourage BNs to look at it as well. This is honestly a win win situation as long as no one is forced to mod anything.

It might also help simulate the upcoming Modding v2 in some ways, which is a pretty awesome idea. I've honestly had an idea of opening a queue similar to this, where users could post there maps upon reaching certain criteria to let us BNs know which ones are possibly ready. I'm not sure if "buying" your way into this is the best option, but having a way to encourage BNs to check these maps is what we need, even if it is through bonuses.

BNs are already REQUIRED to icon a certain amount of maps, and mod as well. Having that little extra bonus would help them out lots.

Another reason why new mappers don't get as much attention is because of disqualifications, and this is partially why BNs don't like touching inexperienced mappers. There is a higher risk of a map getting DQ'd from them, and the penalty from a DQ is pretty big sadly.

I hope a system where users can nominate their own maps exists in the near future, (modding v2 should be doing this maybe?) but as I mentioned, we BNs should not be forced to.

Thanks for showing the BAT rules, that I didn't find. Well, the certain amount can be reached by modding and approving your friends, and doesn't require to approve less known mappers.

This pool you talk about is the kind of things I proposed in my last post. A category where maps nominated by users could go, and maybe give a better bonus to the BNs who mod them, as you suggest.

The +12SP limit isn't that important, looking at how many 12+ SP maps hasn't got any BN mod yet. It shows again how Kudosus have little point for now. Having a bonus or a pool for maps with higher SP (not 12, but a higher amount) in order to promote them, along with user votes could be a better option than forcing people to mod.

As I stated before, I don't like the idea of forcing people to mod. However, when the BNs don't mod everybody equally, there is a need for some changes, and if forcing to mod lesser known mappers is one of those, then it should be considered. As you could see, I'm open to any idea involving promoting maps equally and having BN to mod equally.

What is that Disqualification thing ? Maps getting out of the Qualified pool ? In that case, that would mean the BNs who nominated didn't really check the map, and Qualified too soon. It has nothing to do with the mapper, if it's as I supposed before. The BNs could just have modded and told what was wrong, and helped the mapper improve his map.

Lust wrote:

Everybody starts somewhere. Nobody looking at your map? Then mod to become a BN yourself and then mod for mod with the others once you do. Its not like the nominators are a closed group, work hard to hit that modder score and gain attention for your own work! It all builds up and certainly doesn't happen over night

So, you say too that to have mods, being a BN is required ? It shouldn't. Everybody should have equal chances to have BN mods.

Lally wrote:

for what do we have modding queues then? yes in this case is hard to get to it but not for all BNs =_=

Queues are always filled to the top. And when they open, it's a matter of seconds before they are filled again, mostly by other BNs and Elite Mappers having priority over newcomers.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Everybody should have equal chances to have BN mods.

You are focusing too much in equality here. People failed to achieve equality in real life after millions of attempts, do you think it's possible in a video game?

For this to work a bit more fairly, the way kudosu is handed out needs to be more disciplined. Right now if I really want, I could just throw out fkload of tiny mods that doesn't really help the mapset to improve a bit and get kudosu for it. My point is that 20~25 kudosu is not much as you think, if you want to further abuse the system, you can look out for maps that weren't modded for 2 weeks, throw some logical looking mod and get 2 kds. Repeat 10 times, bam 20 kds.

If we really want to push this forward, we really need some solid data on average time taken for useful/well thought out mods or mods where we could tell effort was made in it (this one is too dangerously subjective though, but the whole kds system is subjective as well) and balance out the actual kudosu cost.

tl;dr: My point is that trying to build a fair/equality promoting system on top of a subjective reward system ain't the best shot at this.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What is that Disqualification thing ? Maps getting out of the Qualified pool ? In that case, that would mean the BNs who nominated didn't really check the map, and Qualified too soon. It has nothing to do with the mapper, if it's as I supposed before. The BNs could just have modded and told what was wrong, and helped the mapper improve his map.

This is where you've gone wrong. The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues, but the presence of these issues has everything to do with the mapper, as it is the mapper that caused them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Lally wrote:

for what do we have modding queues then? yes in this case is hard to get to it but not for all BNs =_=

Queues are always filled to the top. And when they open, it's a matter of seconds before they are filled again, mostly by other BNs and Elite Mappers having priority over newcomers.

That's just more experienced mappers knowing they have to check queues often and working harder to spend the time to do so. If you spent as much time refreshing or checking queues as they did you'd get your fair share of first-come-first-served slots too, there's no priority involved.

xxdeathx wrote:

The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues

No, they are responsible for making sure maps are in best condition. Whether they live up to their responsibilities is to each his own.

What standard of map quality/condition they want to icon is up to themselves, but the map's only gonna get dqed if it's unrankable or really bad. That's the responsibility I meant.

why you want to rush BN to check your map? to deserve your map into Qualification Section is HARD
if you want some shitposted by BN ok then, damn son
Also, if BN don't like your song, BN still want to check/mod yours? lel

edit:

baraatje123 wrote:

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

nope, BN haves a choose to mod / bub / rank

xxdeathx wrote:

ikin5050 wrote:

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

I have no good ideas either. we don't care about kudosu and I can't see a monthly quota working out for 100 BN unless there are enough of these requests out there.

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

I'm agree with death's quote

and kudos only for modding not to summon BN to mod our map

xxdeathx wrote:

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What is that Disqualification thing ? Maps getting out of the Qualified pool ? In that case, that would mean the BNs who nominated didn't really check the map, and Qualified too soon. It has nothing to do with the mapper, if it's as I supposed before. The BNs could just have modded and told what was wrong, and helped the mapper improve his map.

This is where you've gone wrong. The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues, but the presence of these issues has everything to do with the mapper, as it is the mapper that caused them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

That's just more experienced mappers knowing they have to check queues often and working harder to spend the time to do so. If you spent as much time refreshing or checking queues as they did you'd get your fair share of first-come-first-served slots too, there's no priority involved.

What I've meant is that if a BN puts a map as Qualified, and an other BN finds an urankable issue in it, the BN is as responsible as the mapper for letting this error stay. And what I also meant is that BNs do Qualify the maps. My point here was to explain why it would be better to only let them disqualify maps, just as the Ranking v2 should do.

And about the queues, I spend 2 to 3 hours per day looking at the queues and refresh them, but all the time I posted in the modding queues of BNs, I got ignored, or it was full in some seconds, and since I only have a single ranked map, I can't apply to most of those queues anyway.

Genocide wrote:

why you want to rush BN to check your map? to deserve your map into Qualification Section is HARD
if you want some shitposted by BN ok then, damn son
Also, if BN don't like your song, BN still want to check/mod yours? lel

edit:

nope, BN haves a choose to mod / bub / rank

My point is that even if it's stated in the rules that BN can choose what they mod, it shouldn't be everytime like this, they should also mod other maps. Do you think mappers that have a lot of BN friends and have the possibility to improve have more right to be in the Qualified section than mappers ignored by the BN ? I don't think so.

BNs can choose to mod/bub/rank, but I'll say it again, it's unfair for those who haven't got friends in the BN or haven't got a reputation yet. When you have so much rules in the BN queues preventing non-elite mappers to submit their maps, then there is a huge issue, and change is needed.

Niko-nyan wrote:

I'm agree with death's quote

and kudos only for modding not to summon BN to mod our map

Well, kudos for Star Priority are completely useless, since Star Priority is useless. So this feature should at least put some usefulness in it. I agree it won't give any advantage to Elite Mappers and BNs, but they don't need any. It's aimed towards newcomers who can't get modded by Bns because they don't have ranked maps, or they just don't have friends in the BN. It would allow them to improve, and have their map checked.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What I've meant is that if a BN puts a map as Qualified, and an other BN finds an urankable issue in it, the BN is as responsible as the mapper for letting this error stay. And what I also meant is that BNs do Qualify the maps. My point here was to explain why it would be better to only let them disqualify maps, just as the Ranking v2 should do.

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

And about the queues, I spend 2 to 3 hours per day looking at the queues and refresh them, but all the time I posted in the modding queues of BNs, I got ignored, or it was full in some seconds, and since I only have a single ranked map, I can't apply to most of those queues anyway.

why don't try forum PM instead? some is open checking via forum PM. tho it's just about lucky your map get noticed or not... but at least it get more attention cause you ask it directly.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

My point is that even if it's stated in the rules that BN can choose what they mod, it shouldn't be everytime like this, they should also mod other maps. Do you think mappers that have a lot of BN friends and have the possibility to improve have more right to be in the Qualified section than mappers ignored by the BN ? I don't think so.

BNs can choose to mod/bub/rank, but I'll say it again, it's unfair for those who haven't got friends in the BN or haven't got a reputation yet. When you have so much rules in the BN queues preventing non-elite mappers to submit their maps, then there is a huge issue, and change is needed.

why don't try at least known by the BNs, BNs is on every channel. they are all friendly, moreover Osu! is a community, not single-man game.
i've much BNs friend... but it's still hard to find who is free to rank my map

Patient is the key

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

=w=)b

Lust wrote:

Everybody starts somewhere. Nobody looking at your map? Then mod to become a BN yourself and then mod for mod with the others once you do. Its not like the nominators are a closed group, work hard to hit that modder score and gain attention for your own work! It all builds up and certainly doesn't happen over night

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

It is a absolute pain in the ass to get mods (bn especially, but for other modes than std it is hard to get good mods anyways)
it would be great if there was a way to actually get BN to look at your map, but we can't take away Bn freedom

paradox? i think so

How about we just pay more attention to starting mappers, let's say, at least as much as to experienced mappers. from experienced mappers you know you'll be getting quality, whereas with starting mappers you should help them to have their maps become quality

You can't force a BN to mod specific maps so it won't help if you throw BN tokens a them tons of times. It will be about as ineffective as throwing lots of mod requests at the BN.

Novalogic wrote:

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

i'll try to say what lust want to say

as long as you still modding (doing m4m in this case) you can get to BN more closely. after you get point of modding you can become BNs...

dude... why don't you literate them ;w;

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place.

Arcubin wrote:

why don't try forum PM instead? some is open checking via forum PM. tho it's just about lucky your map get noticed or not... but at least it get more attention cause you ask it directly.

Already did that a lot. I managed to get an answer yesterday, for the first time in my 3 years of mapping. Looking at that awful ratio, I can say that it's not a very effective method, because most of the time you won't even get an answer.

Arcubin wrote:

why don't try at least known by the BNs, BNs is on every channel. they are all friendly, moreover Osu! is a community, not single-man game.
i've much BNs friend... but it's still hard to find who is free to rank my map

Osu shouldn't be about getting the highest relations possible to have better chances to enjoy the game. I love to play, I love to map, but I don't like to spend time talking to people who mostly (not all) see themselves above the others because of their rank.

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

Well, do you spend 2 years trying to rank a simple map, but can't because BN/BAT ignore your requests ? I don't think so. Yes, one of my maps is 2 years old.

Nwolf wrote:

You can't force a BN to mod specific maps so it won't help if you throw BN tokens a them tons of times. It will be about as ineffective as throwing lots of mod requests at the BN.

As I already stated, we shouldn't do that, normally. But looking at how new mappers are ignored, it may be a necessity. These mappers need Bns to improve their mapping, but get ignored by BNs because they aren't as good as Elite Mappers.

Arcubin wrote:

Novalogic wrote:

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

i'll try to say what lust want to say

as long as you still modding (doing m4m in this case) you can get to BN more closely. after you get point of modding you can become BNs...

dude... why don't you literate them ;w;

You still don't change that fact that Lust clearly said that to be ranked, you need to be a BN. Modding has nothing to do with that, since Kudosus are useless and don't help mappers in any way. And lots of BN clearly state in their queue, that you can M4M them, but it won't guarantee a mod in return (I don't have any example right now, I'm trying to fin the 2 BN queues where I saw that, and will post them once I've got them).

So, if you're not an Elite Mapper or a BN, even M4Ming a BN won't help you.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place. I actually really agree with Arcubin here. I'd much rather spend my time modding a mapset I feel comfortable icon'ing, rather than modding some first-try maps, which are full of issues and probably need a remap or two. Making your map decent before asking BNs to icon it is in my eyes common sense..

appleeaterx wrote:

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place. I actually really agree with Arcubin here. I'd much rather spend my time modding a mapset I feel comfortable icon'ing, rather than modding some first-try maps, which are full of issues and probably need a remap or two. Making your map decent before asking BNs to icon it is in my eyes common sense..

Following your logic, that means someone who has no ranked maps can't be checked by a BN, because it'll always be a "first try" map, who won't have any advice given by a BN. So, it will never be able to get ranked. I agree that a map should have a decent quality, but how can it have one if you can only be modded by low-rank modders ?

You need BN mods to see what are the real issues in your map, and following your logic, it means having had BN mods before, which is impossible, following your logic.

I said that I prefer / rather not, not that I refuse to mod maps from new mappers. I do mod maps made by mappers with no ranked maps, but the chances me doing that is much lower for the reason I said earlier.

appleeaterx wrote:

I said that I prefer / rather not, not that I refuse to mod maps from new mappers. I do mod maps made by mappers with no ranked maps, but the chances me doing that is much lower for the reason I said earlier.

I understand you want to mod maps that you know will be good, but how is that useful for the community ?

I mod all kinds of maps, but the issue I have with this feature is the expectation the mapper might get for summoning the BN. They used up Kudos to get a BN to look at their map, but that does not mean that the map is good enough for any sort of icon, then in a sense that mapper might feel he had wasted that because the map is just not up to they expectation.

Another thing is about how they then 'summon'. How are the requests going to split up? How will it be spread evenly, how can mode-specific mapsets get the BNs who are more familiar with that mode? I am pretty sure Taiko and possibly CtB have the least number of BNs who are willing to mod those modes and if they get so many requests, how is that fair, when comparing to eg. Standard.

Because of this forced 'summon', it just puts more workload on them really, this is why everything should be done willingly, and the system should be kept that way

neonat wrote:

I mod all kinds of maps, but the issue I have with this feature is the expectation the mapper might get for summoning the BN. They used up Kudos to get a BN to look at their map, but that does not mean that the map is good enough for any sort of icon, then in a sense that mapper might feel he had wasted that because the map is just not up to they expectation.

Another thing is about how they then 'summon'. How are the requests going to split up? How will it be spread evenly, how can mode-specific mapsets get the BNs who are more familiar with that mode? I am pretty sure Taiko and possibly CtB have the least number of BNs who are willing to mod those modes and if they get so many requests, how is that fair, when comparing to eg. Standard.

Because of this forced 'summon', it just puts more workload on them really, this is why everything should be done willingly, and the system should be kept that way

I don't propose this feature for mappers to expect an icon. It's for them to have the point of view of someone who is experienced in mapping, and can, if the maps deserves it, icon it. Even if the mapper doesn't get the icon, he gets a mod with explanations on why and how he can improve his map, and what were the issues with it. Problem is that new mappers are stuck getting advice by other new mappers, so in the end, they don't improve a bit.

I was proposing a Mode-Specific system, because I know that some people only play/mod/map certain modes, and it would be really stupid to have a CtB BN having to mod a Taiko map. It's pure nonsense and so it was also specified (at least I think it was, I'm not sure anymore). If they get too much request, that means we need more Bns. Simple as that, that would reduce the workload of the few BNs of the specified mode, and allow more people to have a chance to be checked by a BN, looking at the increased number of Nominators.

If we keep the system as it is now, we will barely have new mappers, and barely have variety in our maps. Because the Bns will focus only on specified genres that they love, and so less liked genres will simply not be approved, even if the maps are good. And if we keep the current system, newcomers will always have huge problems to get their maps checked.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

If they get too much request, that means we need more Bns. Simple as that, that would reduce the workload of the few BNs of the specified mode, and allow more people to have a chance to be checked by a BN, looking at the increased number of Nominators.

This isn't something as simple as just getting more. If it was that easy, there would already be more modding for CtB and Taiko, but that is not the case.

This is also still quite a easy-way-out solution for them, I would rather they try to integrate themselves into the community and get to more know more ppl and get mods from interaction, and not just from a press of a button.

You also make it sound like BNs don't bother checking new mapper maps

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Following your logic, that means someone who has no ranked maps can't be checked by a BN, because it'll always be a "first try" map, who won't have any advice given by a BN. So, it will never be able to get ranked. I agree that a map should have a decent quality, but how can it have one if you can only be modded by low-rank modders ?

You need BN mods to see what are the real issues in your map, and following your logic, it means having had BN mods before, which is impossible, following your logic.

wow... why don't read ranking criteria then? it's list all the issues that unrankable...
2lazy4read?

edit : also, most of new mapper is too scared to ask BNs directly...
ask them nicely is a good idea. if they can't... don't force them

the summoning ritual has been thwarted

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

BNs are Robot \w/
fixed
BNs are can do any request anytime anyplace
fixed

This is why we have a mentor system sign up as a mentee if you want to learn we do have a quota to meet up and most of the time a lot of us are really busy to spend 3 hours on a map that needs a lot of work. why don't you ask QATs aswell they have the power to icon and they are much more experienced then BNs so they will be more helpful.
1 As a BN I love to help new mappers but honestly its new mappers most of the time don't understand most concepts I tell them because they are too new to mapping that's why I usually suggest they get modders who are the same level as them to slowly let them learn there way around the editor and mapping. Its best not to rush your maps and if a BN mods a map super earlier you would most likely get overwhelmed by all the new concepts you suddenly have to understand. I mean we are talking about new mappers correct.
2 don't make our services as if they are some sort of prize that you earn through modding we aren't there to congratulate you for modding maps with a mod by us. If you seriously want to mod only to get a mod by us why are you modding in the first place. don't be a hypocriteand say that we should be helping the community all the time when your only modding to help yourself
3 I mod to help mappers but we have quotas to meet and we have a IRL work to do. We are very busy why would you want to make our life even more busy by putting on a mandated modding policy that's just stupid.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

You still don't change that fact that Lust clearly said that to be ranked, you need to be a BN.

You're probably misinterpreting what Lust meant. it's not that "you have to be BN to get a map ranked", but "if you don't like the fact that BNs don't mod newcomers' maps, then become a BN and help solving the issue yourself".

Anyhow, Just to state something again: as a BN, you're already "forced" to mod maps to uphold a quota, if such a summoning system were in place, the current quota can just be changed to require 1 mod on a map that has requested for a BN summon: this still would mean you're free to choose, but you have to pick from a more limited set of maps, and will give newcomers a better chance of getting a BN mod, if you limit the amount of nominations of maps for this. My other post is here: p/3947371 .

The other thing is the fact that with as many BNs as we have now, and the vast majority having differing rules, being busy, or don't want to look at newcomers' maps, it's an awful lot of "mod my map please" PM spamming to every BN in the game, and it's not realistic to expect them to PM every single BN in the hopes of someone accepting their request. With some system (doesn't have to be this. If the star system worked, that would be sufficient already) that makes it simpler to request for BN attention, will make the life of these new mappers much easier.

Also, it seems like a lot of BNs don't really like this suggestion in itself, but I'm sure many of you will admit that it can be hard to get attention from BNs for new mappers, and that the best way to improve on mapping is to get a good mod. If you agree on that, instead of just denying the idea outright, try coming up with other alternatives that could solve the problem, while still keeping you happy?

And I think Lust mentioned something similar will be implemented for Modding v2, so it's not like you won't have to deal with it sooner or later. Why not try to find a good solution now to make sure whatever is going into modding v2 can draw inspiration from that if needed?

Novalogic wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

kinda pesimist and like coward answer.

just Brave!, and don't give up

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...

CDFA is alien

/me runs

le fuc...

Novalogic wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

wow... man. y u so rood... it's also your choice to keep up on mapping/modding or drop your work.
my argumentation is clearly stated same like lexia there. so i won't type them again.

Fort wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...

CDFA is alien

/me runs

wut... D: since when?

tl;dr, anyway, i didn't shoot any kudosu like wtf. But i think this feature request is one of the weirdest thing to do o_o

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

There's always new anime seasons with openings to map :^)

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

bninanutshell.png

AutoMedic wrote:

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

bninanutshell.png

Spectacular generalisation right there.

Go be a BN and rank your good songs then, why sulk about it.

Stay on topic, please.

We already know that even with the raising amount of BNs, we can't cover the demand. Why? Because the system is broken (aka circlejerking), as you already know, and it's supposed to be "fixed" when modding v2 arrives.

Also, have in mind BN is a volunteer activity, this meaning you can't force any of the members to mod X or Y map, else you end with a poor mod from them.

While that happens, I highly suggest you not to reach BNs with "mod requests" (unless you know they're modding machines), but more in a friendly and uninterested way, just asking to look at your map, suggestions about parts in your map that you aren't sure of, etc, the nomination may come by itself (or not).

As for the request, I wouldn't support it, for said reasons, and you can't make sure a BN will look at your map.