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Having more freedom in changing the time signature.

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44
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,376
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
Topic Starter
[TaikoTori]
So, as it stands at the moment, the time signature window in the Timing Setup Panel is very restricted. You can only change the beats per par but not the meter
(or: in x/y, changing the x is possible but y isn't.)

Besides this, Anything above 7/4 requires going into the .osu file and hardscript it there. (For example, if one wants to use 17/4). If i then want to use 17/16, which is the original time signature i was aiming for, i need to 4x the BPM in order to be able to time correctly. But doing that is unacceptable for rank.

So, it would be nice if i could change the time signature freely. I guess it wouldn't be that much work, either.

If anyone is interested:
SPOILER


That's the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MshUFnfEfeA
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
x/16 ?
When do you need that?
Are you sure about this?
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
I brought this up a long time ago, and the answer was that cases like this are pretty extreme, to which I kinda agree with. But I don't see why we only have freedom to change the numerator. I support this.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
But when does it even get used?
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
Topic Starter
[TaikoTori]
Listen to the example i posted in the Spoilerbox, baartje123, you will see that there indeed is 17/16 and whatnot.
It does exist. And yes, it is kind of extreme, but yet again, there are musical genres dedicated to extreme time signatures, for example Djent (arguably a genre) or math rock/metal, aswell as Progressive Metal and Rock. I know that these musical genres arent prominent in osu! but that means that we need to fill up that blank spot, or not?
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Actually, what does n/4 mean, but then I mean the 4
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
Topic Starter
[TaikoTori]
Easily said, its just the way of counting when you have a note. In a 4/4, you can squeeze in 4 quarter notes in each bar. If you have 7/8, you can get in 7 eight notes in each bar and so on.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
From how I understand this, you can do it by setting beatsnap divisor to something else then 1/4
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Sea_Food

[TaikoTori] wrote:

If you have 7/8, you can get in 7 eight notes in each bar and so on.
How is that different from 7 seventh notes in each bar?

Anyway how about a feature that you can just time notes freely as in select the millisecond its placed on.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach

Sea_Food wrote:

[TaikoTori] wrote:

If you have 7/8, you can get in 7 eight notes in each bar and so on.
How is that different from 7 seventh notes in each bar?

Anyway how about a feature that you can just time notes freely as in select the millisecond its placed on.

baraatje123 wrote:

From how I understand this, you can do it by setting beatsnap divisor to something else then 1/4
I don't think either of you understand what is being requested here. This is about signature, not snap divisor. There's rules that contradict eachother in that you cannot double the bpm, and your map must be properly timed using correct signatures. If you cannot set the signature correctly, and you cannot double the bpm, there's a problem.
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-
I've mapped several songs that use 7/8 and it's a bit frustrating that there's no rankable solution to this, since time signatures are locked to n/4

I'd support but no stars oop
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This is actually a fairly important feature. Supporting, I hope this will get added eventually.
Little
2,509 posts
Joined November 2012
Little
Agree with this. Current limitations force the use of incorrect time signatures to get the correct technical behaviour from the game. It'd be great if we could have this so we can use correct time signatures, like when the music is in 2|4, 3|8, 5|8, 6|8, 7|8, etc.
hehe
1,971 posts
Joined November 2012
hehe
i agree, some songs are in n/8 signatures ;_;
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
It'd be useful for low BPM Maps in Taiko to prevent barline spam.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,956 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu

Stefan wrote:

It'd be useful for low BPM Maps in Taiko to prevent barline spam.
isnt taiko able to just omit unnecessary bar lines to avoid the spam except you mean red line spam


anyway if timing a song correctly includes setting the correct timing signature then idk how this isnt a thing yet as it would greatly simplify the life for many
benguin
277 posts
Joined January 2012
benguin
Couldn't you just multiply/divide the bpm by a particular factor to simulate a traditional time signature? (BPM's and time signatures are artificial constructs, the only thing they influence is the how a note's representation with respect to duration appears in sheet music)
ac8129464363
1,566 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363

benguin wrote:

Couldn't you just multiply/divide the bpm by a particular factor to simulate a traditional time signature? (BPM's and time signatures are artificial constructs, the only thing they influence is the how a note's representation with respect to duration appears in sheet music)
technically that works, but it's unrankable.

Lach wrote:

There's rules that contradict eachother in that you cannot double the bpm, and your map must be properly timed using correct signatures. If you cannot set the signature correctly, and you cannot double the bpm, there's a problem.
support, this is actually quite important and should be added soon
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-
Very strongly supporting this; this is an absolute necessity for osu!mania mappers who have the capability of mapping complex songs. osu!'s current structure for time signature is not strong enough to accommodate for strange time signatures.

I just recently got into osu!mania mapping after being someone who creates charts for other rhythm games, and I just found out that improper time signature is something that can disqualify maps from being ranked. I'm currently mapping Mirage Garden by xi, and anyone in here who has enough of an understanding will be able to tell you that it wouldn't be possible to appropriately accommodate for all of the timing changes unless I attempt to work around x/16 and x/8 time signatures by using extended x/4 time signatures. And as we know, incorrect time signatures for longer than two bars need to be fixed.

As benguin said, if the time signature can't be set appropriately in osu! and improper time signature is unrankable, that's a problem that could be mediated by doubling the BPM. Except... doubling the BPM causes a map to be unrankable, and we're back to square one all over again. :(
AndRay2014
28 posts
Joined December 2014
AndRay2014
I agree and support this feature. (No stars though sorry).
Even on Cytus, a popular rhythm game that's source for a lot of beatmaps, has a 7/4 and 11/8 song, two 5/4 songs, and so on.
Little
2,509 posts
Joined November 2012
Little

AndRay2014 wrote:

I agree and support this feature. (No stars though sorry).
Even on Cytus, a popular rhythm game that's source for a lot of beatmaps, has a 7/4 and 11/8 song, two 5/4 songs, and so on.
I'm not sure you understand what the problem is... the game already supports 5/4, 6/4, 7/4.
What's it's lacking now is the ability to use time signatures on beat divisions other than quarter notes, and number of beats per measure beyond [3,7].
AndRay2014
28 posts
Joined December 2014
AndRay2014

CloudSplash16 wrote:

I'm not sure you understand what the problem is... the game already supports 5/4, 6/4, 7/4.
What's it's lacking now is the ability to use time signatures on beat divisions other than quarter notes, and number of beats per measure beyond [3,7].
Yes, I got it. I even made a 5/4 song.
What i was trying to say (but failed completely) is that even popular games have odd signature songs. So why not include them all?
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
mazei
7 posts
Joined October 2010
mazei
I would like for this feature to be added. Without it, it is effectively cutting off a section of music that can not be ranked because of the rules. For those saying these time signatures will be a niche and very rarely ever used, just take a look at Dream Theater. They have 12 studio albums, with most of their songs featuring odd time signatures of x/8 or x/16 and some x/12.

"But that is only one artist!" Well I just gave one example out of many that exist. Dream Theater is a progressive rock band, a genre which employs odd time signatures a fair bit. Here is another genre that uses odd time signatures as a common tool. A majority of music from these genres will never be able to get ranked unless there is a rule change or this feature is added.

"But why do we care about these songs?" Well why not? Being able to get these maps ranked would allow for more diversity. I love my fair share of Anime OPs, but there is so much more out there. For now there isn't many maps of these kinds of music even in unranked. The reason for that is anyone's guess, but I think if they were allowed to be ranked, then we might see more of them and who knows, we might actually really like some of these maps.

Just my 2 cents.
MauritsVEVO
1 post
Joined September 2013
MauritsVEVO
I agree with Mazei. Several genres can now not be ranked, which is a shame. (Especially because most of my favorite bands use odd time signatures, haha)

I'd give stars to this idea, but I don't have any.
Pope Gadget
osu! Alumni
328 posts
Joined January 2013
Pope Gadget

Look at how messy this is because of the restrictions on time signatures.
So in favour for better fluidity.
DarkVortex
668 posts
Joined September 2012
DarkVortex
Bump.

^This pic explains why this is actually needed
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
Topic Starter
[TaikoTori]

mazei wrote:

I would like for this feature to be added. Without it, it is effectively cutting off a section of music that can not be ranked because of the rules. For those saying these time signatures will be a niche and very rarely ever used, just take a look at Dream Theater. They have 12 studio albums, with most of their songs featuring odd time signatures of x/8 or x/16 and some x/12.

"But that is only one artist!" Well I just gave one example out of many that exist. Dream Theater is a progressive rock band, a genre which employs odd time signatures a fair bit. Here is another genre that uses odd time signatures as a common tool. A majority of music from these genres will never be able to get ranked unless there is a rule change or this feature is added.

"But why do we care about these songs?" Well why not? Being able to get these maps ranked would allow for more diversity. I love my fair share of Anime OPs, but there is so much more out there. For now there isn't many maps of these kinds of music even in unranked. The reason for that is anyone's guess, but I think if they were allowed to be ranked, then we might see more of them and who knows, we might actually really like some of these maps.

Just my 2 cents.
Using that as a pun to present you that song.
SPOILER
"Schism" is renowned for its use of uncommon time signatures and the frequency of its meter changes. In one analysis of the song, the song alters meter 47 times. [...]The following verse exhibits a similar pattern to the first, alternating bars of 5/8 and 7/8. The next section is bars of 6/4 followed by one bar of 11/8. This takes the song back into alternating 5/8 and 7/8. Another 6/8 and 7/8 section follows, and after this the song goes into repeating 7/8 bars.".
->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_(song)

There are tons of musical genres out there that use odd time signatures. Tons of them; its not niché, as written by mazei. I am really hoping this will get noticed soon; I am actually really not able to map so many songs due to this restriction, its ridiculous. And yes, i may be one of the only people that actually try to map stuff like that, but still, it adds diversity.

Oh, and by the way. Even if its an old map. But This was mapped using 4/4. Not to offend the mapper, the ones getting it ranked back then also made a mistake, but this is technically just not properly timed, and therefore against the ranking criteria.

I dont want to offend anyone by saying that, but its just a prime example of why this should get implemented. :x
mazei
7 posts
Joined October 2010
mazei

[TaikoTori] wrote:

Using that as a pun to present you that song.
SPOILER
"Schism" is renowned for its use of uncommon time signatures and the frequency of its meter changes. In one analysis of the song, the song alters meter 47 times. [...]The following verse exhibits a similar pattern to the first, alternating bars of 5/8 and 7/8. The next section is bars of 6/4 followed by one bar of 11/8. This takes the song back into alternating 5/8 and 7/8. Another 6/8 and 7/8 section follows, and after this the song goes into repeating 7/8 bars.".
->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_(song)

There are tons of musical genres out there that use odd time signatures. Tons of them; its not niché, as written by mazei. I am really hoping this will get noticed soon; I am actually really not able to map so many songs due to this restriction, its ridiculous. And yes, i may be one of the only people that actually try to map stuff like that, but still, it adds diversity.

Oh, and by the way. Even if its an old map. But This was mapped using 4/4. Not to offend the mapper, the ones getting it ranked back then also made a mistake, but this is technically just not properly timed, and therefore against the ranking criteria.

I dont want to offend anyone by saying that, but its just a prime example of why this should get implemented. :x
Definitely not niche, I'm not sure where in my post made it seem like I was saying it was. There are definitely a whole lot more genres that I did not mention, but just wanted to mention Prog Rock and Math Rock as those two are the ones I'm very much more familiar with.
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
Topic Starter
[TaikoTori]

mazei wrote:

Definitely not niche, I'm not sure where in my post made it seem like I was saying it was. There are definitely a whole lot more genres that I did not mention, but just wanted to mention Prog Rock and Math Rock as those two are the ones I'm very much more familiar with.
Sorry, i meant to agree with you and just using your post as an example. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)
Zhuriel
146 posts
Joined February 2015
Zhuriel
Currently trying to map a song that has sections in 11/4, this would really be useful.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Zhuriel wrote:

Currently trying to map a song that has sections in 11/4, this would really be useful.
11/4 is already possible by editing the .osu file
Zhuriel
146 posts
Joined February 2015
Zhuriel

Baraatje123 wrote:

11/4 is already possible by editing the .osu file
Oh, wasn't aware of that, thanks!
Still, I have some songs I'm considering that use stuff like 15/16, so I'll need this eventually.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Supporting this. I'd love to map some progressive music but it's just horridly messy (and unrankable) under the current, restrictive system. Give us some 5/8, 15/16 and so on and some really interesting songs are suddenly legit candidates for mapping. Constant Motion by Dream Theater is top of my list ;)

And it doesn't even have to just be n(4) time signatures like x/8 or x/16 either... Why not have support for something like 7/5? It's not common sure, but definitely not unheard of. Example here.

Hope to see some development on this sometime :D
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

JBHyperion wrote:

Supporting this. I'd love to map some progressive music but it's just horridly messy (and unrankable) under the current, restrictive system. Give us some 5/8, 15/16 and so on and some really interesting songs are suddenly legit candidates for mapping. Constant Motion by Dream Theater is top of my list ;)

And it doesn't even have to just be n(4) time signatures like x/8 or x/16 either... Why not have support for something like 7/5? It's not common sure, but definitely not unheard of. Example here.

Hope to see some development on this sometime :D
I've already given my support on this, but I had to come back and give you some props because I'm running into a situation with complex time signatures on Acid Rain, by Liquid Tension Experiment -- a few x/8 measures cause some problems, haha. This is something that, if fixed, would probably remove some ranking ambiguity on a number of really awesome songs. I mentioned Xi's Mirage Garden in my last post, and I've also got an awesome song that I cannot really do anything with because it sits in 9/8 for quite some time.
Megpoi
119 posts
Joined January 2013
Megpoi
Seriously need this, Dream Theater Songs play basically every single time signature out there

Trying to map home, but... 19/16 15/16 14/16 9/16 9/8 basically impossible
People say that the note can be changed by going into the notepad, but out of convenience sake ! just make both changeable

Take for example this song by Dream Theater, Dance Of Eternity
here are the time signatures used in the song

4 7 3 4 7 3 4 7 3 7 4 7 3 7 13 15 17 14 4 7 3 3 7 4 <- Notes
4 8 4 4 8 4 4 8 4 8 4 8 4 8 16 16 16 16 4 8 4 4 8 4 <- Beat

This is only 1:15 of the song ( if you don't believe me go listen to it)
imagine having to change each 16 beat to a 4 beat... the already difficult to arrange 24 time changes will become 43 different time changes.

We need more freedom !
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-
*cough*

This is huge and could be very beneficial for all game modes; let's get some pressure on this again.
JapanYoshiTheGamer
293 posts
Joined December 2010
JapanYoshiTheGamer
I'm only supporting this for x/(2^y) time where 1≤y≤4.
TheKingHenry
1,665 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry

Bara- wrote:

11/4 is already possible by editing the .osu file
I believe many things are possible by editing the osu file. Is that a legitimate answer to this problem and other things that can be done with it but not in editor etc tho? I don't think so.

JapanYoshiTheGamer wrote:

I'm only supporting this for x/(2^y) time where 1≤y≤4.
With this you are excluding rhythms with y that can't be divided even with 2, such as 5/3 or smth.

JBHyperion wrote:

And it doesn't even have to just be n(4) time signatures like x/8 or x/16 either... Why not have support for something like 7/5? It's not common sure, but definitely not unheard of.
This.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
One question. How does this influence gameplay? In Standard/CtB there is nothing which can be influenced by this. Barlines in Taiko/Mania are changed by the currently-changable value. The only factor I can see how this would influence gameplay is with the Finish-resets when playing Nightcore...
TheKingHenry
1,665 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry

Bara- wrote:

One question. How does this influence gameplay? In Standard/CtB there is nothing which can be influenced by this. Barlines in Taiko/Mania are changed by the currently-changable value. The only factor I can see how this would influence gameplay is with the Finish-resets when playing Nightcore...
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect it in any way.
So if I understand this correctly you mean that because it doesn't affect gameplay it doesn't matter? Why is there short-cut keys and all that stuff in editor since them being or not being there doesn't affect gameplay? To make mapping more smooth. Why should there be freedom in time signatures? To make timing more smooth. To be more nitpicky, why do storyboards and videos exist? Do they affect gameplay? I don't think so. They are there to perhaps make maps more appealing, represent the music, overall make the experience better by adding something not possible to include in the map itself. Since gameplay isn't the only aspect of osu! and its beatmaps, they shouldn't be judged only according to that view.

Good question though, and many people that mostly play and don't map probably think of the same.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Please note that I'm not against this. In my older posts here, I didn't understand what /y meant, and therefore assumed it wasn't important. Now that I am aware of how it works I can see the use of it. However, I don't see how this would actually affect stuff. It doesn't change anything gameplay related, and afaik, it doesn't make mapping easier. Even a 3/4 map can be mapped in 4/4 as long as you know what you are doing, and it will not affect gameplay. The issue there is the barlines in Mania/Taiko, and quite possibly the Finishes when playing with Nightcore
TheKingHenry
1,665 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry

Bara- wrote:

Even a 3/4 map can be mapped in 4/4 as long as you know what you are doing, and it will not affect gameplay.
But since maps are atleast supposed to be timed properly, you can't map 3/4 as 4/4. Therefore, since the timing is supposed to be done according to the music, it leads to the problem we have. Hell, we could just remove the time signature all together and have just the BPM and offset and gameplay wouldn't be affected. For same reason we have time signatures at all, we should have tools to make all kind of time signatures, even if they happen to be rare.

EDIT: Also just to be sure sorry if I sound rude all the time, I'm just nitpicking on random stuff I find on comments to find possible arguments around this matter, to ground the reasoning behind this to other ppl who are reading this thread through the examples given.
littledolltoy
9 posts
Joined August 2016
littledolltoy
I'm trying to map a song with 5/4, 6/4, 16/8 and 17/8 sections in it, but I have given up since to my understanding, the only way to get correct timing signatures like that is to mess with the BPM, but this is unrankable. I hope this will be added so I can map the songs i love :-)


this guy spent hours timing this map, didnt add many notes, but if you look at the timing page, and play the song with nightcore you can hear the nightcore mess up.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/258449
Last edited by littledolltoy , edited 1 time in total.
0gg
293 posts
Joined January 2018
0gg
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