Tess wrote:

SPOILER

Narrill wrote:

Learning to read low ARs won't help you with higher ARs. I suggest you go back to AR8-9 and actually learn to read rather than bashing your head against AR6. High AR is where the metagame's at, and that isn't going to change, so there's no reason to push in the other direction.

Wrong. I learned how to play HR in a routine and was getting really adept with it until I got sick. Playing HR all the time caused me to have to stick to AR10. After that came DT, and at some point I couldn't even read AR10 anymore because only 10.3 really felt comfortable to read. After that I started playing EZ routinely, and now I can read any AR between 4 and 10.3 at least decently. I also did a routine where I would only play a map nomods once-thrice and after that would solely play it with FL. This drastically improved my ability to memorize maps quickly after enough practice, which also allows me to FL maps with much more ease - and I've had fun the entire time. Now I like to do combos like EZDTHDFL to push my reading to the limit, and it's fun, at least for me. The entire thing was fun since I enjoy practicing things more than grinding for a score. In the end osu is a game about pushing your limits in several aspects, and I feel like focusing on FCing things all the time detracts from that, ultimately making the game less fun.

Bauxe wrote:

I have said this on another thread.
Playing in some sort of routine is a shit idea. Playing only low AR is really going to fuck you up when you come back to other stuff. If you want to be consistent, play a bit of everything.

I'll partially agree with you here. AR doesn't really fuck you up since you can always revert whatever you fucked up. Consistency shouldn't really matter here, in my opinion. I mean, games are for fun and even though achieving something is fun, the road to achieving it should be fun as well. If fun for someone is playing HR only then let them play HR only. I feel like only a very specific set of achievements are praised within this game and others treated as useless. Watching a difficult FL FC is just as impressive to me as watching a difficult Touhou 1cc. Just because it has to be memorized doesn't mean that completing it isn't impressive.

As for reading, I'd advise playing EZ until you're tired of it and then playing nomods, and using your interest in playing it as a means to add variety to your playing. It'll be really hard and annoying at first but once you're used to it it's pretty fun.

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

playing ht makes u good at dt


trust me all my scores r dt

cheezstik wrote:

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

It's actually not about learning to play a certain AR. EZ mod teaches you to read at high densities and you actually end up reading patterns better. Theoretically, even someone who only plays AR11 can play AR1 if they tried but they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Almost wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

It's actually not about learning to play a certain AR. EZ mod teaches you to read at high densities and you actually end up reading patterns better. Theoretically, even someone who only plays AR11 can play AR1 if they tried but they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

I meant learning to play a certain AR though, more specifically, high AR. Density is a whole other aspect of reading, you could read high density as well as MillhioreF, but you're not going to be able to play AR10+ well if you can't read / react to it fast enough, regardless of the density. In this case it's true, you probably aren't gonna learn to read / react fast enough for the requirements of AR10+ by playing low AR.

Though playing EZ mod will benefit you if you do decide to play higher ARs because you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Almost wrote:

Though playing EZ mod will benefit you if you do decide to play higher ARs because you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Yeah ofc that's true, but more of the difficulty from AR10+ for me at least, is actually being able to read / react at that speed. I like to think I can read EZ decently, and that level of density just doesn't appear in AR10 (At least the AR10 maps that I play, which aren't AR10 no-mod), so EZ just doesn't help that much in that case.

Almost wrote:

you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Can we stop parroting this? The only people who genuinely play solely by reaction are shit players whose top ranks are filled with Cs because they attempt maps they don't have any hope of FCing. No legitimate player plays by reaction, they just probably have shit reading because they play TV size DTs all day with the same handful of easy patterns and don't make any attempt to diversify their maps.

Playing low AR doesn't help anyone. What helps is stepping overall map difficulty down to a level you can actually read and building density up slowly from that point.

Almost wrote:

they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Object density contributes, but the main reason EZ is difficult is because in order to play at lower ARs you have to break the habitual response time you've developed with high ARs. It has nothing to do with reading ability and everything to do with habits built through simple repetition.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Can we stop parroting this? The only people who genuinely play solely by reaction are shit players whose top ranks are filled with Cs because they attempt maps they don't have any hope of FCing. No legitimate player plays by reaction, they just probably have shit reading because they play TV size DTs all day with the same handful of easy patterns and don't make any attempt to diversify their maps.

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Object density contributes, but the main reason EZ is difficult is because in order to play at lower ARs you have to break the habitual response time you've developed with high ARs. It has nothing to do with reading ability and everything to do with habits built through simple repetition.

No, the main reason is the reading difficulty since you don't find the object density of EZ mod in any other mod combination. Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

playing ez mod helps you train hr

trust me, i play dt.

Almost wrote:

Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

No time at all? It's literally the speed your brain decides to process the visual stimuli in front of you, its effects permeate every single aspect of gameplay.

Almost wrote:

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Yeah, well, those people would mash at AR6 just as well as they do at AR10, and they would do so because they suck, plain and simple. "Playing by reaction" isn't a thing.

Narrill, what ARs are you adept at?

10

Narrill wrote:

10

9.6 master race come at me

when was the last time you even saw ar10 without hdiden anyway, i bet you'd be thrown off by the approach circles and miss a lot

Riince wrote:

Narrill wrote:

10

9.6 master race come at me

when was the last time you even saw ar10 without hdiden anyway, i bet you'd be thrown off by the approach circles and miss a lot

AR9.6 master race checking in! *High five*

Also part of the "I need approach circles or I can't FC" master race.

i can read ar10.3 ez i'm rank 13k

I can read anything between 4 and 10.3, provided that the map is not insanely hectic, and, in my experience, the way I play high approach rates now is way different from before I started playing EZ. Mental skills are hard to explain though because they're harder to put to words since there's nothing concrete to use as leverage. It's like trying to explain how to lift your arm without saying "focus on lifting your arm" or something similar.

I know this is a common thing. Cause I also have low ar reading in osu! I can only read up to ar 6 then it kind of drops off at a certain point.

Tess wrote:

hard to explain

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Narrill wrote:

Tess wrote:

hard to explain

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Reading is hard to explain.

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

No time at all? It's literally the speed your brain decides to process the visual stimuli in front of you, its effects permeate every single aspect of gameplay.

Almost wrote:

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Yeah, well, those people would mash at AR6 just as well as they do at AR10, and they would do so because they suck, plain and simple. "Playing by reaction" isn't a thing.

I don't know about you but I take 1 circle to adjust to different ARs. And "playing by reaction" is a thing, it's called playing an AR that is a little too fast for you.

RaneFire wrote:

Narrill wrote:

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Reading is hard to explain.

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

He also pretty much only plays HR, a mod that doesn't even require you to read anything complex.

winber1 wrote:

playing ez mod helps you train hr

trust me, i play dt.

can confirm 300+ circles clicked

Almost wrote:

He also pretty much only plays HR, a mod that doesn't even require you to read anything complex.

I don't know how you managed to convince yourself that DT requires more reading skill than HR, but it doesn't.

Almost wrote:

I don't know about you but I take 1 circle to adjust to different ARs. And "playing by reaction" is a thing, it's called playing an AR that is a little too fast for you.

You take one circle to adjust to an AR you're practiced with, which is entirely different. And yeah, that's what "playing by reaction" is, a temporary state that resolves itself over time if the maps you're playing are easy enough that you can begin to read them. The only people who play by reaction all the time are 60k nobodies who think flailing around on unranked AR10 maps is fun.

RaneFire wrote:

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

You're not wrong, but my experience is the result of my own practice methods, and reading is my strongest skill by far. I have no reason to believe that I could've done better if I'd learned lower ARs.

Narrill wrote:

I don't know how you managed to convince yourself that DT requires more reading skill than HR, but it doesn't.

how it doesn't
HR = AR 10
DT = AR 9.6, AR 10.3, AR 11, sometimes others

but I don't think he was talking about just DT, I think he meant no mods and Easy as well

There's way more to reading than AR...

Nomod and EZ aren't relevant to the current meta. Is he gonna try to tell me the best players in the world don't have to read anything complex either?

AR is the main part of reading, then followed by how weird or complex the patterns are (or maybe it's vice versa for you, idk)

well either way most hard ranked maps nowadays don't really have anything complicated to read

also how is nomod irrelevant? http://puu.sh/d3INR.osr ?

AR is totally tangential to reading. I don't know how you could put pattern complexity behind AR.

Nomod is irrelevant because only the hardest maps in the game are played nomod, everything that can be modded is.

Narrill wrote:

I don't know how you could put pattern complexity behind AR.

Because it doesn't really matter how complicated the pattern is, as long as it's at an approach rate you can read comfortably, it shouldn't give you too much trouble. AR 0 makes all insane maps difficult to read even if their patterns are very simple

Basically the point is that there's less of a difference in reading difficulty with more or lesser complex patterns under the same AR than there is with higher or lower ARs on the same pattern

Kyou-kun wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter how complicated the pattern is, as long as it's at an approach rate you can read comfortably, it shouldn't give you too much trouble.

That's only true for run-of-the-mill ranked maps, there are tons of maps out there with genuinely complex patterns.

Tess wrote:

Basically the point is that there's less of a difference in reading difficulty with more or lesser complex patterns under the same AR than there is with higher or lower ARs on the same pattern

Yes, it's difficult to read ARs you aren't accustomed to, I've already said that. That isn't reading, it's just a learned adjustment of the speed at which you process the visual stimuli in front of you.

Narrill wrote:

Yes, it's difficult to read ARs you aren't accustomed to, I've already said that. That isn't reading, it's just a learned adjustment of the speed at which you process the visual stimuli in front of you.

Redefine everything why don't you.

It's not just the speed at which you process. It's how much as well, among other things. But it's still reading.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

He also pretty much only plays HR, a mod that doesn't even require you to read anything complex.

I don't know how you managed to convince yourself that DT requires more reading skill than HR, but it doesn't.

DT is hard to read than HR. HR makes reading of a map soooooo much easier because the AR becomes higher while the map speed is exactly the same which reduces the object density and the circle size is smaller which also reduces object density. DT on the other hand makes the map harder to read because even though the AR becomes higher, you have less time to react to the everything at the same object density thus you have to read everything faster and the circle size doesn't change. And Kyou-kun is right, I was not only talking about DT, no mod and EZ are a lot harder to read compared to HR.

Narrill wrote:

There's way more to reading than AR...

Nomod and EZ aren't relevant to the current meta. Is he gonna try to tell me the best players in the world don't have to read anything complex either?

Only players who only play HR don't have to read anything too complex since the same pattern is harder to read without HR.

Every player who can't read wrote:

it's just a learned adjustment of the speed at which you process the visual stimuli in front of you.

Realized that the ironic thing about this discussion is that I used to say the same things Narrill says, before I learned how to read. Really, if you at least were able to read all the ARs you're talking about, your words might've held some more weight.

RaneFire wrote:

It's not just the speed at which you process. It's how much as well, among other things. But it's still reading.

Note density is another consideration altogether, and one that can and does exist independent of AR. I'll grant that AR affects note density, but in lowering note density it also decreases the time you have to discern patterns, making pattern complexity more difficult to deal with. Reading difficulty comes primarily from the map, not the difficulty settings.

Almost wrote:

DT is hard to read than HR. HR makes reading of a map soooooo much easier because the AR becomes higher while the map speed is exactly the same which reduces the object density and the circle size is smaller which also reduces object density. DT on the other hand makes the map harder to read because even though the AR becomes higher, you have less time to react to the everything at the same object density thus you have to read everything faster and the circle size doesn't change. And Kyou-kun is right, I was not only talking about DT, no mod and EZ are a lot harder to read compared to HR.

Understand that there are more variables here you have to consider in this comparison than note density. Yes, the same map will be much more difficult to read on DT than HR, that's because the map will simply be more difficult on DT than HR. DT is inherently more difficult than HR. That this has to be stated is a testament to how misguided your attempts to argue this point are. At the same overall difficulty HR will yield a slightly lower object density than DT, but the patterns will be far, far more complex. That's just how the current mapping meta works; if it can be DT'd it will be DT'd, if not it will be HR'd, and if it can't be DT'd or HR'd it will be played no-mod. The maps rrtyui, hvick, and sayo play might be nigh unreadable, but those of the layman top 1k DT player are just simple insanes, and an HR player has to push almost all the way to extras just to break the top 1k.

Never mind the fact that low density, high variation maps are often just as difficult as high density, low variation maps. There's a reason maps like Pursuing Your True Self and Bad Apple don't have many HDHR ranks despite being below 4* and maps like Dispel have full HDHR scoreboards despite being above 6*.

Almost wrote:

Only players who only play HR don't have to read anything too complex since the same pattern is harder to read without HR.

Despite what the "high AR is ez" circlejerk would have you believe, this isn't true. As I said above, what you lose in object density is gained in pattern recognition, and the only reason people can deal with AR10 now is because the meta supports it. Remember back when insanes were AR8 and everyone was touting AR10 as impossible?

Tess wrote:

Realized that the ironic thing about this discussion is that I used to say the same things Narrill says, before I learned how to read. Really, if you at least were able to read all the ARs you're talking about, your words might've held some more weight.

And maybe if you had any FCs to show for all your alleged reading ability yours would too. Know your place.

It doesn't matter whether I can read some arbitrary low AR, and I've never claimed to be able to. I read the ARs that occur naturally on maps with actual difficulty, and I read them more consistently and at a higher degree of difficulty than the vast majority of players at my rank.

I'm with Narrill on this. The only part of reading that really has anything to do with approach rate is visually acknowledging where the next note is. In fact, I'd argue that high object density is much easier for people who are good at reading since it gives them far more information on what to listen for. Low object density simply forces them to listen much more closely to what each note is leading into. Of course if you are a shit reader you will think low object density is easier because it's harder to play purely by reaction if you are overwhelmed by so many concurrent objects.

Narrill wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

It's not just the speed at which you process. It's how much as well, among other things. But it's still reading.

Note density is another consideration altogether, and one that can and does exist independent of AR. I'll grant that AR affects note density, but in lowering note density it also decreases the time you have to discern patterns, making pattern complexity more difficult to deal with. Reading difficulty comes primarily from the map, not the difficulty settings.

Almost wrote:

DT is hard to read than HR. HR makes reading of a map soooooo much easier because the AR becomes higher while the map speed is exactly the same which reduces the object density and the circle size is smaller which also reduces object density. DT on the other hand makes the map harder to read because even though the AR becomes higher, you have less time to react to the everything at the same object density thus you have to read everything faster and the circle size doesn't change. And Kyou-kun is right, I was not only talking about DT, no mod and EZ are a lot harder to read compared to HR.

Understand that there are more variables here you have to consider in this comparison than note density. Yes, the same map will be much more difficult to read on DT than HR, that's because the map will simply be more difficult on DT than HR. DT is inherently more difficult than HR. That this has to be stated is a testament to how misguided your attempts to argue this point are. At the same overall difficulty HR will yield a slightly lower object density than DT, but the patterns will be far, far more complex. That's just how the current mapping meta works; if it can be DT'd it will be DT'd, if not it will be HR'd, and if it can't be DT'd or HR'd it will be played no-mod. The maps rrtyui, hvick, and sayo play might be nigh unreadable, but those of the layman top 1k DT player are just simple insanes, and an HR player has to push almost all the way to extras just to break the top 1k.

Never mind the fact that low density, high variation maps are often just as difficult as high density, low variation maps. There's a reason maps like Pursuing Your True Self and Bad Apple don't have many HDHR ranks despite being below 4* and maps like Dispel have full HDHR scoreboards despite being above 6*.

I've played a lot of HR back in the day and I have never seen a pattern that I couldn't read no mod that I couldn't read with HR since the reading is a lot easier. Yes there is an added difficulty of pattern recognition in HR, but in general, the pattern is easier on HR than it is no mod. DT maps of the same difficulty also makes pattern recognition more difficult, and maybe even more difficult than HR depending on whether the AR is higher than 10 or not. The only real difficulty to HR is the aim component (and accuracy but that's not really part of this discussion). Also I couldn't care less about the current meta of osu! or anything since that isn't even the point but the amount of scores set on a song is more dependent on other things than star difficulty such as popularity (also Dispel HDHR is pretty easy and awards stupidly op amounts of pp so I'm not surprised all the pp farmers are playing it).

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

Only players who only play HR don't have to read anything too complex since the same pattern is harder to read without HR.

Despite what the "high AR is ez" circlejerk would have you believe, this isn't true. As I said above, what you lose in object density is gained in pattern recognition, and the only reason people can deal with AR10 now is because the meta supports it. Remember back when insanes were AR8 and everyone was touting AR10 as impossible?

I'm not a "high AR is ez" person seeing as I'm someone who finds ARs higher than 10 impossible to play well but as I said before, it's all about the lack of object density reducing any complex patterns in reading difficulty.

Narrill wrote:

Tess wrote:

Realized that the ironic thing about this discussion is that I used to say the same things Narrill says, before I learned how to read. Really, if you at least were able to read all the ARs you're talking about, your words might've held some more weight.

And maybe if you had any FCs to show for all your alleged reading ability yours would too. Know your place.

Maybe if you actually played other mod combinations besides HR and stopped making assumptions about mods you have never played you wouldn't be so ignorant.

Oh snap, a DT farmer calling Narrill a farmer for having a single farm map in his top ranks. I really thought I'd seen all there was in the G&R forums. I think the only thing to hold out for now is Winber posting something useful relevant to the thread it's posted in.

chainpullz wrote:

Oh snap, a DT farmer calling Narrill a farmer for having a single farm map in his top ranks. I really thought I'd seen all there was in the G&R forums. I think the only thing to hold out for now is Winber posting something useful relevant to the thread it's posted in.

EZ mod is my main mod now..

chainpullz wrote:

a DT farmer calling Narrill a farmer

he never said that

hr is pretty easy if the initial map isnt ar10 imo

dont mind me tho, let the drama continue

Almost wrote:

I've played a lot of HR back in the day

Yeah, okay, see, you don't have a single HR rank above 190pp, and the only remotely difficult HR play in your top ranks is on this. You basically never even played HR, and your understanding of osu!'s skill breakdown is so off-base it's making me cry.

Here's all you need to know: in osu! you get better at things by doing them, period. You build things from the ground up one step at a time, whether that thing is speed, density interpretation, reading speed, aim consistency, finger control, etc., and you build them up in the environment you plan to use them, because if you build them up in some other environment, like training aim at low OD or training density interpretation at low AR, there will be an adjustment period when you attempt to bring those skills into the correct environment. What is the correct environment? The one the current meta favors. You can claim to not care about the current meta, but the fact of the matter is that the current meta is the context in which skill development must necessarily occur, and the current meta is high AR.

Density interpretation is just one aspect of reading, and the amount that's necessary is dictated by the meta. Sure, you can reach this amount by practicing EZ, and chances are you'll reach this amount pretty quickly playing EZ because EZ is extremely heavy on density interpretation, but while you might reach the necessary level of density interpretation more quickly than normal this way it won't save you time in the long run. Why? Because you had to get accustomed to playing EZ before it started to benefit you, and the process of getting accustomed to EZ took time, time that you could have put towards the many other aspects of gameplay the meta necessitates. After that the process of training with EZ also took time away from those other aspects. And once all that training is done it'll take more time for you to adjust back to nomod or HR or DT or whatever and put that training to use. And while this process is most noticeable and most detrimental if you do it in one large chunk of time, it's still detrimental if you split the time evenly between EZ training and normal play.

Keep in mind that all of this can be applied to any training activity that deviates from standard play, not just EZ.

The good news is that there's a way to avoid all this lost time and train all the aspects prioritized by the current meta synergistically, maximizing your return on time and effort. How, you ask? By playing into the current meta. How do you play into the current meta? By downloading as many maps as you can and playing all the maps near your skill level. If you do this properly there'll almost never be any need to work on skills specifically because you'll be practicing all of them to the necessary degree all of the time.

How do I know this? Partly because it's allowed me and lots of other players like me to reach really high ranks without really high playcounts, but mainly because it's common fucking sense.

Stop looking for shortcuts and go play the game.