in 4 years someone will say this exact same quote

AR15 isn't hard to learn. What is this, 2014?

The problem is that some players have such shitty hitobject density reading that they would need to be able to read ar25 in order to play properly

In 4 years people will also be saying "Lol look at this noob PP farmer with DT remote control and DT hoshizora as his top scores"

cheezstik wrote:

In 4 years people will also be saying "Lol look at this noob PP farmer with DT remote control and DT hoshizora as his top scores"

Good thing SnowWhite can read HDHR like a champ too.

chainpullz wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

In 4 years people will also be saying "Lol look at this noob PP farmer with DT remote control and DT hoshizora as his top scores"

Good thing SnowWhite can read HDHR like a champ too.

Not to forget HD only!

cheezstik wrote:

In 4 years people will also be saying "Lol look at this noob PP farmer with DT remote control and DT hoshizora as his top scores"

yamemasita hoshizora DT fc incoming
Angelsim diamond DT ss and frostmourne's ignite fc incoming
numerous remote control attempts and one FC incoming
thank me later

Narrill wrote:

Learning to read low ARs won't help you with higher ARs. I suggest you go back to AR8-9 and actually learn to read rather than bashing your head against AR6. High AR is where the metagame's at, and that isn't going to change, so there's no reason to push in the other direction.

Wrong. I learned how to play HR in a routine and was getting really adept with it until I got sick. Playing HR all the time caused me to have to stick to AR10. After that came DT, and at some point I couldn't even read AR10 anymore because only 10.3 really felt comfortable to read. After that I started playing EZ routinely, and now I can read any AR between 4 and 10.3 at least decently. I also did a routine where I would only play a map nomods once-thrice and after that would solely play it with FL. This drastically improved my ability to memorize maps quickly after enough practice, which also allows me to FL maps with much more ease - and I've had fun the entire time. Now I like to do combos like EZDTHDFL to push my reading to the limit, and it's fun, at least for me. The entire thing was fun since I enjoy practicing things more than grinding for a score. In the end osu is a game about pushing your limits in several aspects, and I feel like focusing on FCing things all the time detracts from that, ultimately making the game less fun.

Bauxe wrote:

I have said this on another thread.
Playing in some sort of routine is a shit idea. Playing only low AR is really going to fuck you up when you come back to other stuff. If you want to be consistent, play a bit of everything.

I'll partially agree with you here. AR doesn't really fuck you up since you can always revert whatever you fucked up. Consistency shouldn't really matter here, in my opinion. I mean, games are for fun and even though achieving something is fun, the road to achieving it should be fun as well. If fun for someone is playing HR only then let them play HR only. I feel like only a very specific set of achievements are praised within this game and others treated as useless. Watching a difficult FL FC is just as impressive to me as watching a difficult Touhou 1cc. Just because it has to be memorized doesn't mean that completing it isn't impressive.

As for reading, I'd advise playing EZ until you're tired of it and then playing nomods, and using your interest in playing it as a means to add variety to your playing. It'll be really hard and annoying at first but once you're used to it it's pretty fun.

Tess wrote:

Wrong

None of what you described shows low-AR practice helping you to read high ARs. In my experience low-AR practice doesn't help with reading high ARs.

Oh, I forgot to mention that. I did also get better at reading higher ARs, particularly AR9. The only way it helps in reading 10+ though is that you learn to plan out your paths more efficiently, so it decreases the chance for you missing. I've found that it's hard to "read" AR10.3 because there isn't much to read in the first place. Still, learning EZ was beneficial in that I learned to understand patterns faster and be "ahead" of them, for lack of a better term.

I've found that the big difference between reading and playing with reflexes is that if you know how to read, you'll be used to understanding patterns and planning the most efficient path to play, even if the timeframe you have is decreased it helps, but you need to be used to reading the lower ARs. Whereas if you only know how to play by reflexes all you focus on is aim at circle -> click it, which is generally enough to play but, in my experience, leads to more mistakes than when you know how to read.

Both have their pros and cons, though. Lower AR is nice because there's more time to plan out your path, but it's hard to stick to that path while there's other stuff going on. That's why I generally find EZFL easier to play than either EZ or FL, since there's less distractions going on at a time and FL forces you to stick to your path anyway. With higher AR, when there's only 3-4 notes on the screen at a time it's very hard to become confused as to what to hit, but at the same time it's easy to misread something and mess up since the reaction time is decreased. That's also probably why AR9 seems to be the most liked AR, since it strikes a good balance between reaction and adjustment time.

tl;dr Low AR helps read high ARs because it conditions you to understand patterns before hitting them instead of hitting them by reflex only, and you'll be best off being adept at both.


Also, if you can only play 10.3, you can't read anything.

I can confirm that playing EZ mod helps high AR reading.

Tess wrote:

Low AR helps read high ARs because it conditions you to understand patterns before hitting them instead of hitting them by reflex only, and you'll be best off being adept at both.

except that you always have to understand patterns before hitting them
and what you call 'reflex only' is a situation when a pattern becomes so natural to that a player almost instantly knows what to do
that's what makes reading a clusterfuck harder than reading a single circle.

Tess wrote:

SPOILER

Narrill wrote:

Learning to read low ARs won't help you with higher ARs. I suggest you go back to AR8-9 and actually learn to read rather than bashing your head against AR6. High AR is where the metagame's at, and that isn't going to change, so there's no reason to push in the other direction.

Wrong. I learned how to play HR in a routine and was getting really adept with it until I got sick. Playing HR all the time caused me to have to stick to AR10. After that came DT, and at some point I couldn't even read AR10 anymore because only 10.3 really felt comfortable to read. After that I started playing EZ routinely, and now I can read any AR between 4 and 10.3 at least decently. I also did a routine where I would only play a map nomods once-thrice and after that would solely play it with FL. This drastically improved my ability to memorize maps quickly after enough practice, which also allows me to FL maps with much more ease - and I've had fun the entire time. Now I like to do combos like EZDTHDFL to push my reading to the limit, and it's fun, at least for me. The entire thing was fun since I enjoy practicing things more than grinding for a score. In the end osu is a game about pushing your limits in several aspects, and I feel like focusing on FCing things all the time detracts from that, ultimately making the game less fun.

Bauxe wrote:

I have said this on another thread.
Playing in some sort of routine is a shit idea. Playing only low AR is really going to fuck you up when you come back to other stuff. If you want to be consistent, play a bit of everything.

I'll partially agree with you here. AR doesn't really fuck you up since you can always revert whatever you fucked up. Consistency shouldn't really matter here, in my opinion. I mean, games are for fun and even though achieving something is fun, the road to achieving it should be fun as well. If fun for someone is playing HR only then let them play HR only. I feel like only a very specific set of achievements are praised within this game and others treated as useless. Watching a difficult FL FC is just as impressive to me as watching a difficult Touhou 1cc. Just because it has to be memorized doesn't mean that completing it isn't impressive.

As for reading, I'd advise playing EZ until you're tired of it and then playing nomods, and using your interest in playing it as a means to add variety to your playing. It'll be really hard and annoying at first but once you're used to it it's pretty fun.

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

playing ht makes u good at dt


trust me all my scores r dt

cheezstik wrote:

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

It's actually not about learning to play a certain AR. EZ mod teaches you to read at high densities and you actually end up reading patterns better. Theoretically, even someone who only plays AR11 can play AR1 if they tried but they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Almost wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

I think what he meant was, let's say you could only read AR4, you're not gonna magically improve at or learn to read AR9 from just playing AR4. Your case was probably you getting too used to high AR, and playing EZ helped familiarize you with lower AR again, it's not like you couldn't read AR9, you were just too used to AR10+ or whatever.

It's actually not about learning to play a certain AR. EZ mod teaches you to read at high densities and you actually end up reading patterns better. Theoretically, even someone who only plays AR11 can play AR1 if they tried but they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

I meant learning to play a certain AR though, more specifically, high AR. Density is a whole other aspect of reading, you could read high density as well as MillhioreF, but you're not going to be able to play AR10+ well if you can't read / react to it fast enough, regardless of the density. In this case it's true, you probably aren't gonna learn to read / react fast enough for the requirements of AR10+ by playing low AR.

Though playing EZ mod will benefit you if you do decide to play higher ARs because you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Almost wrote:

Though playing EZ mod will benefit you if you do decide to play higher ARs because you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Yeah ofc that's true, but more of the difficulty from AR10+ for me at least, is actually being able to read / react at that speed. I like to think I can read EZ decently, and that level of density just doesn't appear in AR10 (At least the AR10 maps that I play, which aren't AR10 no-mod), so EZ just doesn't help that much in that case.

Almost wrote:

you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Can we stop parroting this? The only people who genuinely play solely by reaction are shit players whose top ranks are filled with Cs because they attempt maps they don't have any hope of FCing. No legitimate player plays by reaction, they just probably have shit reading because they play TV size DTs all day with the same handful of easy patterns and don't make any attempt to diversify their maps.

Playing low AR doesn't help anyone. What helps is stepping overall map difficulty down to a level you can actually read and building density up slowly from that point.

Almost wrote:

they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Object density contributes, but the main reason EZ is difficult is because in order to play at lower ARs you have to break the habitual response time you've developed with high ARs. It has nothing to do with reading ability and everything to do with habits built through simple repetition.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

you will actually be reading rather than just reacting to circle popping up on your screen.

Can we stop parroting this? The only people who genuinely play solely by reaction are shit players whose top ranks are filled with Cs because they attempt maps they don't have any hope of FCing. No legitimate player plays by reaction, they just probably have shit reading because they play TV size DTs all day with the same handful of easy patterns and don't make any attempt to diversify their maps.

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

they just won't be able to deal with the circle densities found playing EZ which is why most people can't play EZ.

Object density contributes, but the main reason EZ is difficult is because in order to play at lower ARs you have to break the habitual response time you've developed with high ARs. It has nothing to do with reading ability and everything to do with habits built through simple repetition.

No, the main reason is the reading difficulty since you don't find the object density of EZ mod in any other mod combination. Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

playing ez mod helps you train hr

trust me, i play dt.

Almost wrote:

Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

No time at all? It's literally the speed your brain decides to process the visual stimuli in front of you, its effects permeate every single aspect of gameplay.

Almost wrote:

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Yeah, well, those people would mash at AR6 just as well as they do at AR10, and they would do so because they suck, plain and simple. "Playing by reaction" isn't a thing.

Narrill, what ARs are you adept at?

10

Narrill wrote:

10

9.6 master race come at me

when was the last time you even saw ar10 without hdiden anyway, i bet you'd be thrown off by the approach circles and miss a lot

Riince wrote:

Narrill wrote:

10

9.6 master race come at me

when was the last time you even saw ar10 without hdiden anyway, i bet you'd be thrown off by the approach circles and miss a lot

AR9.6 master race checking in! *High five*

Also part of the "I need approach circles or I can't FC" master race.

i can read ar10.3 ez i'm rank 13k

I can read anything between 4 and 10.3, provided that the map is not insanely hectic, and, in my experience, the way I play high approach rates now is way different from before I started playing EZ. Mental skills are hard to explain though because they're harder to put to words since there's nothing concrete to use as leverage. It's like trying to explain how to lift your arm without saying "focus on lifting your arm" or something similar.

I know this is a common thing. Cause I also have low ar reading in osu! I can only read up to ar 6 then it kind of drops off at a certain point.

Tess wrote:

hard to explain

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Narrill wrote:

Tess wrote:

hard to explain

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Reading is hard to explain.

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

Narrill wrote:

Almost wrote:

Breaking the "habitual response time for high ARs" takes no time at all.

No time at all? It's literally the speed your brain decides to process the visual stimuli in front of you, its effects permeate every single aspect of gameplay.

Almost wrote:

I was referring to the hundreds of low ranks who claim they can "read" high ARs when in reality they can't, I was not talking about players who can actually read it.

Yeah, well, those people would mash at AR6 just as well as they do at AR10, and they would do so because they suck, plain and simple. "Playing by reaction" isn't a thing.

I don't know about you but I take 1 circle to adjust to different ARs. And "playing by reaction" is a thing, it's called playing an AR that is a little too fast for you.

RaneFire wrote:

Narrill wrote:

Understand that this means I have no reason to believe you given my own contradictory experience.

Reading is hard to explain.

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

He also pretty much only plays HR, a mod that doesn't even require you to read anything complex.

winber1 wrote:

playing ez mod helps you train hr

trust me, i play dt.

can confirm 300+ circles clicked

Almost wrote:

He also pretty much only plays HR, a mod that doesn't even require you to read anything complex.

I don't know how you managed to convince yourself that DT requires more reading skill than HR, but it doesn't.

Almost wrote:

I don't know about you but I take 1 circle to adjust to different ARs. And "playing by reaction" is a thing, it's called playing an AR that is a little too fast for you.

You take one circle to adjust to an AR you're practiced with, which is entirely different. And yeah, that's what "playing by reaction" is, a temporary state that resolves itself over time if the maps you're playing are easy enough that you can begin to read them. The only people who play by reaction all the time are 60k nobodies who think flailing around on unranked AR10 maps is fun.

RaneFire wrote:

You play AR10. Even if you have a different experience... your experience is incomplete. Using bigger words doesn't make you "more" right.

You're not wrong, but my experience is the result of my own practice methods, and reading is my strongest skill by far. I have no reason to believe that I could've done better if I'd learned lower ARs.

Narrill wrote:

I don't know how you managed to convince yourself that DT requires more reading skill than HR, but it doesn't.

how it doesn't
HR = AR 10
DT = AR 9.6, AR 10.3, AR 11, sometimes others

but I don't think he was talking about just DT, I think he meant no mods and Easy as well

There's way more to reading than AR...

Nomod and EZ aren't relevant to the current meta. Is he gonna try to tell me the best players in the world don't have to read anything complex either?

AR is the main part of reading, then followed by how weird or complex the patterns are (or maybe it's vice versa for you, idk)

well either way most hard ranked maps nowadays don't really have anything complicated to read

also how is nomod irrelevant? http://puu.sh/d3INR.osr ?

AR is totally tangential to reading. I don't know how you could put pattern complexity behind AR.

Nomod is irrelevant because only the hardest maps in the game are played nomod, everything that can be modded is.

Narrill wrote:

I don't know how you could put pattern complexity behind AR.

Because it doesn't really matter how complicated the pattern is, as long as it's at an approach rate you can read comfortably, it shouldn't give you too much trouble. AR 0 makes all insane maps difficult to read even if their patterns are very simple

Basically the point is that there's less of a difference in reading difficulty with more or lesser complex patterns under the same AR than there is with higher or lower ARs on the same pattern

Kyou-kun wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter how complicated the pattern is, as long as it's at an approach rate you can read comfortably, it shouldn't give you too much trouble.

That's only true for run-of-the-mill ranked maps, there are tons of maps out there with genuinely complex patterns.

Tess wrote:

Basically the point is that there's less of a difference in reading difficulty with more or lesser complex patterns under the same AR than there is with higher or lower ARs on the same pattern

Yes, it's difficult to read ARs you aren't accustomed to, I've already said that. That isn't reading, it's just a learned adjustment of the speed at which you process the visual stimuli in front of you.

Narrill wrote:

Yes, it's difficult to read ARs you aren't accustomed to, I've already said that. That isn't reading, it's just a learned adjustment of the speed at which you process the visual stimuli in front of you.

Redefine everything why don't you.

It's not just the speed at which you process. It's how much as well, among other things. But it's still reading.