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osu! World Cup 2014 - Mappool Discussion
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Barney
Wow, actually all of maps I get SS or S, and most of my ranks nowadays are from multiplayer sooooo... I feel dissapointed, it doesn't fit the tournament where best of the best plays against each other. Lycorsis HR insted of RLC another would be awesome for example, Oms song - is it paraolimpic song xD? Sky gate is the only one of DT which can cause random miss, it's sad. Again - God Speed? Ofc with HR it could be tie-breaker, but no mod it's 1play FC even on multi. Also the captain KRZY probably knows that it's not the 1st time those players will participate so stress factor should be reduced to a little above average multiplayer game.
I'm not surprised that you try to set for lower skill after not letting many awesome players to play but pls, it's meh, indecent at so many levels.
I'm not surprised that you try to set for lower skill after not letting many awesome players to play but pls, it's meh, indecent at so many levels.
It's not too late to change the mappool if you come up with better one, Gladi. It's been done before in previous OWCs, I don't see a reason why can't it be done now.
bumpfartownik wrote:
It's not too late to change the mappool if you come up with better one, Gladi. It's been done before in previous OWCs, I don't see a reason why can't it be done now.
Oh cmon why do you always want to change the tournament to fit your taste
Putting pretty difficult maps right away in owc 2013 was a mistake. And difficulty curve was a lot better in earlier owcs
I like Gladi's (other maps electors too?) idea of giving space for strategy for all teams. Makes matches interesting both for players and viewers.
(underdogs beating supposedly top team because they are too arrogant about their skill level hohoho)
Putting pretty difficult maps right away in owc 2013 was a mistake. And difficulty curve was a lot better in earlier owcs
I like Gladi's (other maps electors too?) idea of giving space for strategy for all teams. Makes matches interesting both for players and viewers.
(underdogs beating supposedly top team because they are too arrogant about their skill level hohoho)
It's actually too late. Unless you wanna change like one or two maps.fartownik wrote:
It's not too late to change the mappool if you come up with better one, Gladi. It's been done before in previous OWCs, I don't see a reason why can't it be done now.
Maps are easy because I'm not picking them anymore, yet when I used some hard maps everyone cried they were too hard. Picking maps is a pain in the ass anyways especially when you get so many random restrictions.
I noticed some maps from last year are used. its not a bad thing, but i'd like to see other maps. like caramel heaven was reused and I remember seeing like 4~5/8 people SS that XD I think it was on Taiwan vs Japan .
I wanna point out that osu in general isn't a strategy-oriented game so I'm not really sure why the emphasis on it now.
Be that as it may, a strategic map pool should offer variety on many levels such as what captnxn said about DT.
Teams have different strengths. A team might be excellent DTers while terrible at HD. Another team might have extraordinary consistency but don't have as high of skill.
Banning what you suspect is the opponent's strengths is THE purpose of bans, but without variety, meaningful choices can't be made.
Currently, absolute difficulty is one of the culprits causing low variety. Easier maps emphasize consistency, which is extremely important but should share its importance with map reading, stream speed, jumping etc. Current map pool pretty much ignores it all, considering players are 5k+.
Tldr Please reconsider the map pool
Be that as it may, a strategic map pool should offer variety on many levels such as what captnxn said about DT.
Teams have different strengths. A team might be excellent DTers while terrible at HD. Another team might have extraordinary consistency but don't have as high of skill.
Banning what you suspect is the opponent's strengths is THE purpose of bans, but without variety, meaningful choices can't be made.
Currently, absolute difficulty is one of the culprits causing low variety. Easier maps emphasize consistency, which is extremely important but should share its importance with map reading, stream speed, jumping etc. Current map pool pretty much ignores it all, considering players are 5k+.
Tldr Please reconsider the map pool
If it is easier, will you defeat Hong Kong in one go?fartownik wrote:
Well, this only proves more that the maps are too easy, and definitely easier than last year. You can't deny it now and perhaps you can make something out of that. Have we really regressed to the level from 2 years ago? (because the maps are almost as easy as the ones from that time).
In all fairness, a team like Hong Kong which was high seeded before 4 (top) players got kicked is now probably the lowest seed in the entire tournament. I think this is exactly what we need. the overall level of play has dropped and while Poland or Germany got better, other countries are in a worse state and nothing can be done. im glad easier maps were picked for the situation.Athrun_Yamato wrote:
If it is easier, will you defeat Hong Kong in one go?fartownik wrote:
Well, this only proves more that the maps are too easy, and definitely easier than last year. You can't deny it now and perhaps you can make something out of that. Have we really regressed to the level from 2 years ago? (because the maps are almost as easy as the ones from that time).
Really just to give them a chance. I know easier maps aren't really helpful in determining the 'best' but..cmon. yeah....yeah.
Actually I really want to see some DJpop/Shinxyn-like maps, which test left hand. The current pool is more like, "Let's hurt player's right hand first, then deal with the other later".
Thanks for pointing the truth outPortalLife wrote:
That Red like Roses map is terrible :l
Just a reminder that in OWC #1 and #2, the maps in the first two stages were so easy that even I, a player around #1500 at the time iirc, was able to SS them without any problem. (it was only nomod btw)
No one really complained about it. Except for a handful of people saying that maps were too easy, that it would be boring and that everybody will SS them. But in the end, the number of SSes was ridiculously low, the lowest-tier countries were eliminated and all top-tier countries qualified for the next stages.
In other words, the map pick fulfilled its job at its fullest, it followed a logical difficulty curve that everybody was expecting and, bonus, it was entertaining for spectators (they were waiting for the first player to miss, it added some suspense). Why should it be different today?
No one really complained about it. Except for a handful of people saying that maps were too easy, that it would be boring and that everybody will SS them. But in the end, the number of SSes was ridiculously low, the lowest-tier countries were eliminated and all top-tier countries qualified for the next stages.
In other words, the map pick fulfilled its job at its fullest, it followed a logical difficulty curve that everybody was expecting and, bonus, it was entertaining for spectators (they were waiting for the first player to miss, it added some suspense). Why should it be different today?
Overall I think the maps are great . However, as a viewer, I really want to say that the maps are way too easy. Yes, you can say constancy is a skill, but the difficulty on these maps are BELOW SOMETHING THAT NEEDS CONSTANCY. Like nevereverland. it's OD7. I cant really imagine anyone above rank 500 to get even 1x100 on it because THE OD IS THAT LOW AND THE SONG DOESN'T HAVE CONTENT THAT IS HARD TO ACC (well unless things unfortunate happens).
I wouldn't be surprise if some top seeded team lose because they can't do spinner. Yes I am serious about this because even a noob like myself can 1pc fc these maps easily.
Hopefully the map selectors will at get at least 1 or 2 harder maps for this mappool and the difficulty curve they promised will be there.
I wouldn't be surprise if some top seeded team lose because they can't do spinner. Yes I am serious about this because even a noob like myself can 1pc fc these maps easily.
Hopefully the map selectors will at get at least 1 or 2 harder maps for this mappool and the difficulty curve they promised will be there.
Guys
Just because you can SS these maps with 1PC doesn't mean you will in the OWC
In fact, you won't.
You will miss. I guarantee it. I don't care who you are, you will.
I am at a point where I am inclined to believe people are just willing to slash out at the most ridiculous things just so they can express their discontent at the OWC without having 20 pages deleted. That just isn't right.
This isn't our first OWCs. We know how it goes. Why are we acting like this is our first?
Just because you can SS these maps with 1PC doesn't mean you will in the OWC
In fact, you won't.
You will miss. I guarantee it. I don't care who you are, you will.
I am at a point where I am inclined to believe people are just willing to slash out at the most ridiculous things just so they can express their discontent at the OWC without having 20 pages deleted. That just isn't right.
This isn't our first OWCs. We know how it goes. Why are we acting like this is our first?
I don't see why it should be done.fartownik wrote:
I don't see a reason why can't it be done now.
Gladi and I talked thoroughly about this and we both agree that this mappool is good to go.
I just want to point out 2 things:
1. This is a tournament not a SOLO. There are lots of other factors that matters with the result of a match (like pressure, luck, etc.) Unlike you sir, who is a pro at this game and had experienced numbers of OWC, might not feel pressure about it but it would definitely be different to other.
2. Star rating isn't everything. (correct me if I am talking about the right thing. It's about the link BD posted). If this mappool were to follow that gradual increase of star rating, the group stage would go menace.
I do understand that it is easy but I do not see the reason why I should change this.
KRZY wrote:
You will miss. I guarantee it. I don't care who you are, you will.
Comfort zone syndrome revealed. People don't like to play below their level because they know that inferior players can produce similar scores.KRZY wrote:
You will miss. I guarantee it. I don't care who you are, you will.
People will get extra nervous, knowing that a mistake on an easier map will cost them more than on a difficult map.
I don't even know what to say about this, other than it may be interesting, but at the same time, I think their misses/100's will be in stupid places, so again, I don't know what to say. I'm just a spectator anyway.
SPOILER
I'm all for testing consistency, but I think that it should be a part of the map pick, not the entire map pick. Mix in an equal number of low/high difficult maps and have the system for map elimination do its job. Strong teams will eliminate easy maps, weak teams will eliminate hard maps, and you will end up playing on roughly equal footing on average, instead of giving the weak teams the best competitive grounds they can have, in the group stage. There is no map that can differentiate the better teams in this mapset, only consistency, which by the way, is subject to luck at all levels. No one is perfect. To err is human. Just my 2 cents.
No matter what you do, people are going to complain about the map pools. With NAT this year people complained about the round 2 tiebreaker being too easy, and that being the reason for one of the favorites being eliminated early. When in reality the tiebreaker served its purpose and that player was simply outplayed by an unknown.
I personally think the OWC maps are starting in a good place this year. Don't miss, and don't get 100s if they're so easy.
I personally think the OWC maps are starting in a good place this year. Don't miss, and don't get 100s if they're so easy.
Did people really complain about them o-o?Lach wrote:
With NAT this year people complained about the round 2 tiebreaker being too easy, and that being the reason for one of the favorites being eliminated early. When in reality the tiebreaker served its purpose and that player was simply outplayed by an unknown.
"it's too easy, change pls"
^sums up about 1/4 of the posts
But quite frankly it has been the same everywhere else, I really don't know what's so wrong with having an "easier" mapset on group stages °°.
(Despite DT but yeah I think they got it already)
[edited because apparently I pressed "post" button way too soon]
^sums up about 1/4 of the posts
But quite frankly it has been the same everywhere else, I really don't know what's so wrong with having an "easier" mapset on group stages °°.
(Despite DT but yeah I think they got it already)
[edited because apparently I pressed "post" button way too soon]
Does OWC need to be with a crazy maps like d.m.c + DT ????
yes.Ex-Rei wrote:
Does OWC need to be with a crazy maps like d.m.c + DT ????
I agree, that the maps generally are bit too easy. I do see where the arguments from the pickers of the pool come from, but I feel like most of the arguments for harder maps which were mentioned in this thread overweight. In my opinion the current group stage pool favors consistency and the ability to play when nervous too much over other relevant osu! skills. (And I am saying this as an I think relatively consistent player who is used to stage performances irl, so I do not have an underlying incentive to win.)
I also have to re-emphasize, that DoubleTime maps should focus on speed more.
Lastly I am very happy with the planned difficulty curve. Hopefully we will see nobody (or almost nobody) FCing in the later stages of the world cup. That would be very interesting to watch and to play since it will show what seperated the most skillful players from the rest. I would even go as far as suggesting maps where there is a realistic risk of failing and which some players might not be able to pass at all.
I also have to re-emphasize, that DoubleTime maps should focus on speed more.
Lastly I am very happy with the planned difficulty curve. Hopefully we will see nobody (or almost nobody) FCing in the later stages of the world cup. That would be very interesting to watch and to play since it will show what seperated the most skillful players from the rest. I would even go as far as suggesting maps where there is a realistic risk of failing and which some players might not be able to pass at all.
I don't see how having a discussion where both sides lay open their arguments is "ridiculous". Furthermore I think, that generalizing every person that expresses his or her opinion like that can be perceived as insulting for those who actually care and invest effort to try to make their point clear.KRZY wrote:
[...]
I am at a point where I am inclined to believe people are just willing to slash out at the most ridiculous things just so they can express their discontent at the OWC without having 20 pages deleted. That just isn't right.
[...]
Why is breaking the habit necessarily a bad thing?KRZY wrote:
[...]
This isn't our first OWCs. We know how it goes. Why are we acting like this is our first?
Lach wrote:
No matter what you do, people are going to complain about the map pools. With NAT this year people complained about the round 2 tiebreaker being too easy, and that being the reason for one of the favorites being eliminated early. When in reality the tiebreaker served its purpose and that player was simply outplayed by an unknown.
I personally think the OWC maps are starting in a good place this year. Don't miss, and don't get 100s if they're so easy.
Are you gonna tell me that nijigen natteke hr map was a good pick :V
No, but I don't think near distant future was a bad one, exactly.Azer wrote:
Lach wrote:
No matter what you do, people are going to complain about the map pools. With NAT this year people complained about the round 2 tiebreaker being too easy, and that being the reason for one of the favorites being eliminated early. When in reality the tiebreaker served its purpose and that player was simply outplayed by an unknown.
I personally think the OWC maps are starting in a good place this year. Don't miss, and don't get 100s if they're so easy.
Are you gonna tell me that nijigen natteke hr map was a good pick :V
I learned something from NAT, and that is to never leave things until the last minute, because it's very very easy to fuck up. Let us hope these guys have everything planned ahead and not just throwing things together at the last minute because everyone else is MIA
finished this in case people are interested in some numbersBlue Dragon wrote:
I know PP rating isn't the absolute truth, but this may come in handy.
Just made it for fun, you can get some interesting numbers out of it. May be probably broken due to GDocs glitching crap up.
Well...Tom94 wrote:
Lastly I am very happy with the planned difficulty curve. Hopefully we will see nobody (or almost nobody) FCing in the later stages of the world cup. That would be very interesting to watch and to play since it will show what seperated the most skillful players from the rest. I would even go as far as suggesting maps where there is a realistic risk of failing and which some players might not be able to pass at all.
Wow you guys are kind of exaggerating how easy these maps are...Plenty of people will miss on these maps with OWC nerves.
In my opinion, saying that currently picked maps are too hard and that the map pickers should seriously reconsider re-picking the maps are ridiculous. At the very least, such complaints had better be voiced AFTER the group stages IF the results are indeed as these people insist. I do not mean to suggest however that the method of having a discussion is ridiculous, just the content.Tom94 wrote:
I don't see how having a discussion where both sides lay open their arguments is "ridiculous". Furthermore I think, that generalizing every person that expresses his or her opinion like that can be perceived as insulting for those who actually care and invest effort to try to make their point clear.
You are correct about generalization however, and although I had no intent to generalize everyone voicing their concerns about the map pool if my posts seemed like I was then I apologize. Please understand that I had no such intentions, and I understand that almost everyone participating in the discussion is going about it in a civil and actually care about the tournament.
I think you misunderstood this part, I was referring to the fact that in all previous OWCs, people have not performed on a level that their records/solo play suggests. This is bound to be the same for this year's OWC, and it's not a matter of breaking the habit.Tom94 wrote:
Why is breaking the habit necessarily a bad thing?
I don't know why people are even mentioning SSing maps as a point to support their argument. The skill cap for these maps are so low that even the bottom half of the teams that play on them can have the same consistency as the top teams which is where RNG results come in. Also is why putting a map in the finals where some players in the match would even have trouble passing is just inappropriate. You would be putting a map with such a ridiculous difficulty into the mappool where no players can consistently perform on it (inverse case to what this group mappool is currently) and you end up with some more RNG results.
the fun part is that most of the people who say "I can SS these maps easily" are #5k+ and don't even have a FC on most of them
What I meant was not putting maps which nobody can perform consistently on but maps on which only the very very best can perform consistently on. Difficulties in the ballpark of Chipscape, Big Black and Airman come to my mind. Freedom dive would in all likelihood already be too much as would be Rainbow Dash likes Girls. (I'm just calling examples, feel free to imagine equivalent AR10.3 DT maps or HR ones.)JappyBabes wrote:
I don't know why people are even mentioning SSing maps as a point to support their argument. The skill cap for these maps are so low that even the bottom half of the teams that play on them can have the same consistency as the top teams which is where RNG results come in. Also is why putting a map in the finals where some players in the match would even have trouble passing is just inappropriate. You would be putting a map with such a ridiculous difficulty into the mappool where no players can consistently perform on it (inverse case to what this group mappool is currently) and you end up with some more RNG results.
Thanks for clarifying, I indeed misunderstood your point.KRZY wrote:
I think you misunderstood this part, I was referring to the fact that in all previous OWCs, people have not performed on a level that their records/solo play suggests. This is bound to be the same for this year's OWC, and it's not a matter of breaking the habit.Tom94 wrote:
Why is breaking the habit necessarily a bad thing?
If you do it like that then one person will win against the other team (ex. rrtyui on freedom dive) and I don't think it's a good idea for a team tournamentTom94 wrote:
What I meant was not putting maps which nobody can perform consistently on but maps on which only the very very best can perform consistently on. Difficulties in the ballpark of Chipscape, Big Black and Airman come to my mind. Freedom dive would in all likelihood already be too much as would be Rainbow Dash likes Girls. (I'm just calling examples, feel free to imagine equivalent AR10.3 DT maps or HR ones.)
Literally in the section you quote from my post I stated that stuff like Freedom Dive would already be too hard for that very reason.Kert wrote:
If you do it like that then one person will win against the other team (ex. rrtyui on freedom dive) and I don't think it's a good idea for a team tournamentTom94 wrote:
What I meant was not putting maps which nobody can perform consistently on but maps on which only the very very best can perform consistently on. Difficulties in the ballpark of Chipscape, Big Black and Airman come to my mind. Freedom dive would in all likelihood already be too much as would be Rainbow Dash likes Girls. (I'm just calling examples, feel free to imagine equivalent AR10.3 DT maps or HR ones.)
I dont see why people complain about the Red Like Roses map.
Yes, it has its slow parts, but thats just how the song is. The map itself has nice jumps, awesome patterns ans isnt just your typical Random-Curve-Slider-Map. I can see this being a top pick.
Other than that, yea, the Tiebreaker feels too easy for what it should be. Singletapping aint all that hard, if you ask me.
Yes, it has its slow parts, but thats just how the song is. The map itself has nice jumps, awesome patterns ans isnt just your typical Random-Curve-Slider-Map. I can see this being a top pick.
Other than that, yea, the Tiebreaker feels too easy for what it should be. Singletapping aint all that hard, if you ask me.
primrose
oh god.. really..Fangslash wrote:
Overall I think the maps are great . However, as a viewer, I really want to say that the maps are way too easy. Yes, you can say constancy is a skill, but the difficulty on these maps are BELOW SOMETHING THAT NEEDS CONSTANCY. Like nevereverland. it's OD7. I cant really imagine anyone above rank 500 to get even 1x100 on it because THE OD IS THAT LOW AND THE SONG DOESN'T HAVE CONTENT THAT IS HARD TO ACC (well unless things unfortunate happens).
I wouldn't be surprise if some top seeded team lose because they can't do spinner. Yes I am serious about this because even a noob like myself can 1pc fc these maps easily.
Hopefully the map selectors will at get at least 1 or 2 harder maps for this mappool and the difficulty curve they promised will be there.
I would have quoted you on this earlier but I mustn't have read your post or something until Fallist quoted you. I would really like to see you 1pc fc at least 5 maps in a row if it's supposedly easy.Fangslash wrote:
even a noob like myself can 1pc fc these maps easily.
Not to mention you'd be under absolutely no pressure which is nothing like the owc.
if one of the admins came around and told him his account would be deleted if he even got 1x miss then it would be similar pressure.
no insta-retries allowed.
no insta-retries allowed.
First ever chance to delete your account in osu! completely legitimately!!!
Surely you won't back down from this?
Surely you won't back down from this?
nononono, it's only to give you some pressure, ofcourse your account wont be deleted afterwards.KRZY wrote:
First ever chance to delete your account in osu! completely legitimately!!!
Surely you won't back down from this?