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Poll 5: Ranking guidelines

posted
Total Posts
44

What's your opinion on the ranking guidelines?

They pose unnecessary limitations on maps.
24
18.32%
They're pretty much fine.
95
72.52%
They need to be made stricter.
12
9.16%
Total votes: 131
Polling ended
Sinistro
osu! Alumni
1,412 posts
Joined January 2008
Topic Starter
Sinistro
Over time, the guidelines and criteria offered for making, modding and ranking maps have grown, evolved and been refined. Over my time in the staff, I've heard people opining that the rules can be too stifling and limiting on a map's creativity and fun factor, while others have been calling for more rules, stricter rules, and/or greater adherence to the rules to maintain playability and a high standard of quality in ranked maps.

What's your opinion? Do you think the existing guidelines are sufficient, insufficient, or over-sufficient? Or perhaps you think that the rules are ok, but the problem is that they are not taken into account?

For those unfamiliar, you can find the current ranking criteria here:
Official Ranking Submission Criteria
eee
692 posts
Joined January 2008
eee
They're pretty much fine.

I follow the criteria most of the time and have no problem at all. I would say some guidelines are insufficient, but they make maps simpler and more fun most of the time.
WhoAteFred
20 posts
Joined January 2010
WhoAteFred
They're fine. Making them stricter would make them less "ranking guidelines" and more "ranking requirements". While all beatmaps now need a BG, the guidelines can be shifted around to make maps more enjoyable.
yeahyeahyeahhh
osu! Alumni
2,850 posts
Joined December 2008
yeahyeahyeahhh
I think they're fine, but some parts might been to be refined. More specially the difficulty part.

"At least two difficulties per song is required. If your beatmap's difficulty is 4 or more difficulty stars (in the song selection screen), it is necessary that you also include an easier version with 3 or less stars. There are a lot of players who are not so skilled at rhythm games - and this is one of the more difficult ones to get used to, so we should look at providing beatmaps which are passable for even beginners!"

I'll admit, I don't really follow this as much as I should, but I'm trying to make easier difficulties. Too many [H][I][I] maps. The whole "well I can beat it so even though its a H at 4.2 and was intended to be a easy" is bullshit. I think a difficulty with AT LEAST a [N] tag should be required.
jmaeshawn
170 posts
Joined May 2008
jmaeshawn
The guidelines themselves are fine, the problem lies with BATs who make up guidelines based on their own personal preferences and refuse to bubble or rank a map due to those "guidelines".

I say that the guidelines should be stuck to and keep personal preferences (like whether a video is "ecchi" or not) out of the ranking process.
Vanmonky
986 posts
Joined June 2009
Vanmonky
Yes, they are fine.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I don't want to start this all over again, but in short, my opinion is:

They are fine as guidelines, but they shouldn't be rock solid rules. People should be allowed to cross them aslong as it feels right.
And to know if it is, I believe we should take into consideration the opinion of more than a single BAT, since people have different tastes.


EDIT:
@yeahyeahyeahhh: My way of seeing it is slightly different. Answer this:
How come it's completly fine for a map to have [E][E] or [E][N], but it's not allowed to have [H][H] or [H][I]?
It might sound normal to you, but when you look at it from another perspective, it's kinda wrong.
Of course, there are people who aren't good at the game, but there are also people who are good and want HARD beatmaps, and to be honest, there are FAR more easy beatmaps out there than really challenging beatmaps highrankers can actually enjoy and have a hard time beating.

And this is the only reasons I had arguments about the guidelines in the first place. I feel like they limit mappers in how hard of a beatmap they can make, and if we keep it this way, the skill level of the community will never increase. Us high rankers have the right to have difficulties we can enjoy too.
Randy96
1,113 posts
Joined August 2009
Randy96
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Doomsday
Featured Artist
1,961 posts
Joined July 2008
Doomsday
Personally, I have no problem with the current guidelines in place, since the things I like the play in maps and the things I put in my own maps don't really cause much of a fuss in that sense.
qlum
481 posts
Joined October 2008
qlum
The guidelines for the actual map are fine but custom skins are accepted to easily and nobody actually looks if the audio is actually removed from video files.
Gens
osu! Alumni
3,485 posts
Joined August 2008
Gens
~They're pretty much fine.

At first I thought that they were too strict (like most of the people here), but later I figured that they were for the best. I find that in most cases they make the map better, which is always good.

I could complain about the score guidelines, but I haven't reached those cases in my maps, so I guess I can't say something about it just yet. I think it's fine though, since it prevents easy-ranking up etc.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
About the official ranking criteria, i guess they're to prevent the maps from being broken (2 hitobjects on the same spot for example) so they're perfectly legit. The only thing i'd change a bit is the score/lenght limit, since standards are pretty much changed today.

But where did things like: Spinner Auto +2000, No jumps or stacks on Easy, must have a easier difficulty, no stack leniency to 0 and some other come from?
These are the things i don't like, because too many people follows them as rules when they are not and make a fuss over them, like: "You have to fix this accordingly to this rule or it won't be rankable" totally ignoring the fun factor in the map and ignoring that it's not a rule, since they're not in the official criteria, as i can see.
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock
I think that what's there is good for a start and covers a lot of good rules, but there's still a huge amount of subjectivity. I believe in withholding ranking because of things that are in every way a BAT's opinion; every fix shouldn't have to refer to some rock-solid rule somewhere. If it was all so strict a lot more of the modding process could be automated.

For example, jumps on an Easy map. Will I say "you can never do that"? No. You're free to try, but if you do it badly I'll tell you to change it. Whether you're bending the rules almost to the point of breaking them or mapping safely within all the guidelines, I'll probably find something that needs to be changed.

jmaeshawn wrote:

The guidelines themselves are fine, the problem lies with BATs who make up guidelines based on their own personal preferences and refuse to bubble or rank a map due to those "guidelines".

I say that the guidelines should be stuck to and keep personal preferences (like whether a video is "ecchi" or not) out of the ranking process.
This is the only post that I really disagree with. Are you saying that BATs should never be subjective? Or just less subjective than they sometimes are? And for the "ecchi video" issue, that's even somewhat more objective. We want to keep osu! content at a certain age-appropriate level, so when something comes up that's borderline it shouldn't be surprising that there's controversy.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
I hate the stack leniency rule.
I'm pretty neutral on spinner +2000, but it should at least be 300-able.
I agree with "should have a normal/easy difficulty"

The problem with most of these "guidelines" is that they are enforced in a completely inconsistent manner.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
To be honest, when modding a map you should be going through a checklist of all these guidelines, and for any where you can't tick it, asking yourself "does this seem correct? is the map better because of breaking this rule?".
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
The problem is that one's own judgment usually isn't acceptable to the community at large. "Is this map more fun because of these jumps?" Well, for me, maybe. Probably not for the BATs - the people who hold the power, for better or worse. Same thing with art or music - you can compose a few notes or whatever, but there are standards for what is "good" music and what is "bad" music, which may depend on the community you apply for.

The hardest lesson I learned from mapping was that what you think is fun and what others think is fun can be very different. Since you're applying to rank a map for the purpose of getting other peoples' approval, you should already go in with a mindset to change things. If you like your map the way it is, just play it yourself.
Aoitenshi
711 posts
Joined February 2009
Aoitenshi
They're fine, that's all I can say.
YGOkid8
osu! Alumni
2,729 posts
Joined February 2009
YGOkid8
ranking criteria seems fine to me... so far >w<
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Fine to me.
Skyripper
osu! Alumni
1,016 posts
Joined August 2008
Skyripper
Also fine for me.
jericho2442
osu! Alumni
1,918 posts
Joined March 2009
jericho2442
i have to admit it needs some refining, there is some completely stupid rules, and then there all the "made up" stuff ppl say just so that it suits there style more >_>

there should be the rules only, any preference what a bat/mat/modder has should be left out since "modding" is not about changing a song to suit what you like but its to get rid of "problems" what a map has

i could say more but....well i wont :P
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock

jericho2442 wrote:

there should be the rules only, any preference what a bat/mat/modder has should be left out since "modding" is not about changing a song to suit what you like but its to get rid of "problems" what a map has
I disagree; modding is "making the map better". Sometimes modding can get too strict and it can seem like they're trying to force you to map in their style, but any modder who realizes there are many ways to map a song is free to suggest changes that aren't based on rock-solid rules.

K2J wrote:

The hardest lesson I learned from mapping was that what you think is fun and what others think is fun can be very different. Since you're applying to rank a map for the purpose of getting other peoples' approval, you should already go in with a mindset to change things. If you like your map the way it is, just play it yourself.
Good way to think about it. Though remember, everyone, that you don't have to follow every suggestion you receive. Even as a BAT, I don't generally mind if some of my suggestions are rejected. You're still the one in charge of your maps; defend it when you feel the need to, and come to a compromise.
jericho2442
osu! Alumni
1,918 posts
Joined March 2009
jericho2442

CheeseWarlock wrote:

I disagree; modding is "making the map better". Sometimes modding can get too strict and it can seem like they're trying to force you to map in their style, but any modder who realizes there are many ways to map a song is free to suggest changes that aren't based on rock-solid rules.
ya i do agree with what your saying, but theres ALOT of time where ppl preference comes over commen sence even when what is being asked to do is totally not needed.

and ya a bat words can be agrued and not allways fixed ect. but obvly an new mapper to the game or ppl who want a fast rank will auto take everything a bat says as "the law" . it also makes it much easier to get a map ranked if you back down and just do everything what is said.

its too bad really because sometimes it can "feel" like theres 1million rules to mapping, i dont mind suggestions but when ppl post saying this MUST be fixed even though it really does not need to be it kinda iratates me, and im not singling anybody out here, im talking about all players bats/mats and normal modders alike

please ignore any typo's are spelling messups, i admit i aint the best at that kinda thing XD
Arusha Shuna
1,793 posts
Joined August 2009
Arusha Shuna
naaaaaah they're fine :D

but sometimes the mp3 is too large (10mb+) and anything lower than that will make the mp3 quality piece of crap, not much of a problem tho...
arien666
6,290 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
They pose unnecessary limitations on maps.

Actually, some jump patterns doesn't follow 'Distance Snap' :3
So, I think this one.
But? Some things must be taken by mappers :3... [Like Score or Unsnapped]
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
Modding as an activity, for me, is an attempt to make the map better in the modder's opinion. That way, with enough opinions in the mix, the mapper can make educated decisions on how to make a map that the general audience finds to be enjoyable.

Because of these varying opinions across the playerbase, I'm generally still willing to protobubble as long as there's been a reasonable amount of modding, any essential issues have been resolved, and it was a good playing experience overall. After all, you could probably build a very sophisticated AIMod to check all the essential things, but it's really the human touch that makes modding an effective measure to improve maps.

That's what I believe, at least.
Breeze
osu! Alumni
4,949 posts
Joined March 2009
Breeze
Also fine for me
btw, translated this into Chinese for more Chinese guys who don't understan English well to vote
I would post again the vote reslut if necessary
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=25691
ignorethis
osu! Alumni
1,885 posts
Joined August 2008
ignorethis
a good map only needs to make sense
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
I think the current guidelines are fine enough~
Remember that it's still a guideline but not a 100% firm rule -- strictness of the guidelines, in fact, can be adjusted by different modders, and this guideline is good enough to guide most of us.
Glancing thourgh the past maps, they don't follow those rules so strictly, and some of them are still popular, and some can be extremely inconvinence to play. Following the guidelines is efficient to bound the lowest quality of our map.

(of course, it's sure that many maps has quality much higher than the so called "lowest quality" =]
Jarby
2,963 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

K2J wrote:

The hardest lesson I learned from mapping was that what you think is fun and what others think is fun can be very different. Since you're applying to rank a map for the purpose of getting other peoples' approval, you should already go in with a mindset to change things. If you like your map the way it is, just play it yourself.
It's funny how strongly I disagree with this way of thinking.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
Interesting. Care to elaborate?
Mystearica
Mystearica
Between 1 and 2, no explanation needed on my part.
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
They are fine, I really don't see why players complain about them all the time.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
IMO, ranking guidelines are treating the symptoms, not the problem.

No matter what the rules are, stupid mappers will find stupid loopholes to continue to create stupid maps.
FurukawaPan
649 posts
Joined August 2008
FurukawaPan
There's no option for, "they need to be made more different".

On one hand, if a mapper does something creative, breaks the "rules", but it works, it *really* works, and provided the map is just good, then no way should that be held back on technicalities.

Conversely, if a mapper does something stupid, they should be called to task on it. There are lots of stupid things that happen from time to time, and they seem to keep getting ranked anyway, because somebody on the BAT thought the map was fun, or was by some popular mapper, and it didn't break any set rules.

If the map inflates the difficulties with -> hard to see hit objects, terrible placement that deliberately tries to obfuscate what you should be able to see, skins that trick the eyes into seeing things that are not there, those maps should be blocked from ranking until those problems are addressed. The difficulty of the map should stem solely from: complexity of rhythm and distance between hit objects. The approach circles should be as visible as possible, and lighting bursts should NOT look like bogus hitcircles. combo colors should NOT blend into the backdrop thus camouflaging the hit circle. These issues aren't creativity, they are just poor design choices. ><
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy
I say that they're fine, it's just those who find stupid loopholes that ruin it.

I am not necessarily happy with a lot of ranked maps, this is true. However, there are perfectly fine maps that exist in this environment. I do not wish to make the guidelines stricter, however, because I am honestly VERY hard to please when it comes to beatmaps. We have plenty of exemplary maps, and more people will complain if we make the guidelines stricter. As far as stifling creativity, keep in mind that we have guidelines for a reason. There is a difference between 'creative' and 'unintuitive, unplayable mess.' We have these guidelines so the latter can be avoided.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
I voted for "stricter" simply because there was no way to accurately get across what I was trying to say when voting. >.>; Where's the "I think they should just be rewritten to be clearer and more defined" option?

What I mean is that there are no examples of what is generally considered a good jump and what is generally considered a retarded jump, things like that, and most importantly...

...what's an acceptable slider and what isn't. Mappers have no idea what's acceptable in that regard until someone who knows what they are doing comes along, or if they have enough experience to know whether or not a slider is acceptable.

I think they are fine, but need to be clearer and more defined. Especially the "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THESE ARE FUCKING GUIDELINES" part.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
Creativity and fun are not ranking critera, so I think the guidelines need to be stricter.
Creativity and fun can not be evaluated systematically, so I think the guidelines won't be improved with increased strictness.

Actually I think the guidelines are fine and it's the mappers that need to be fixed.
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy

awp wrote:

Actually I think the guidelines are fine and it's the mappers that need to be fixed.
This. Times infinity.
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
OK, what do you want us to do differently?
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
Best two suggestions I could offer would be:

1 - Take your time. There's no rush.
2 - Don't strive for a ranked map. Strive for the best map possible. If you can think of a way to improve your map, then why not go for it? Who cares if it takes an hour or five. The end product'll be worth it.

but offfffffffff topic this is specifically about ranking criteria
Sure
4,220 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure
Fine for me :D
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Mostly fine, but I'd like to see a few changes made - at the very least, new combos for sliders with a different speed than the rest of the combo.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy

Ekaru wrote:

I voted for "stricter" simply because there was no way to accurately get across what I was trying to say when voting. >.>; Where's the "I think they should just be rewritten to be clearer and more defined" option?
Be my guest.

That said, I have brought the poll to an end. Please feel free to comment further via replying to this thread with your feedback. It will be read by concerned eyes as always.
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