Since there were cases that maps like Yamanoted heaven, pupa or Delusionist (has been removed) became unqualified/unrankable because of the draining time in some/all difficulties this cause problems in getting them qualified/ranked with a good solution. Currently we follow this rule:

The minimum draining (play) time for a map is 30 seconds (but the recommended minimum is 45 seconds). If your map is shorter than that, then try looping the song with an audio editing program. This is so each map gives a high enough score, and also so people do not try and cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song fully.

The line "This is so each map gives a high enough score, and also so people do not try and cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song fully." is for such cases completely irrelevant while these maps do bring enough points. On personal sight this is a case-by-case situation where we should not stick on a rule but as guideline.

I do understand why we have this rule and that it prevents people being super lazy and cutting openings, etc. But because there are one-two seconds missing these maps which are the original version and not cut version, etc. can't be ranked or they have to be extended awfully. In the example Yamanoted heaven (taking Another difficulty as example) you have a drain time from 00:00:077 until 00:30:690. That are 00:30:613 in total to play. But that's only by one way possible - because the spinner at the end has been extended to fill until 30 seconds. But the music already stops like one second before so the spinner ends in nowhere. And that is an awful way to solve this.

As said this should be treated as case-by-case guideline where people shouldn't cut songs to literally nothing and where we allow such songs without extending the maps with unnecessary spinners because there are one-two-three seconds missing. Because this is just nonsense to say that 31 seconds are fine and 30 as well but 29 isn't anymore. People won't even notice the difference from two seconds. That would be something different if we talk about 30 and 15 seconds, that's a way more significant difference.

how I would rename this:

The recommended minimum draining (play) time for a map should be between 30 ~ 45 seconds. If your map is shorter than that, then try looping the song with an audio editing program. If you consider to map something under the recommended minimum draining time, make sure that there is definitely no other option to elongate the song (e.g. by slowing the song down) or to use a longer version. If there is no such option, the BAT/QAT will discuss about the rankability of the specific map.

The main point in this change is that maps which have this problem currently can be ranked as long everything else is fine. Allowing people to map 10, 15 second beatmaps should still be disallowed and not supported. As guideline it ONLY should be ignored in cases like I've above explained.

(might be a bit long so feel free to make this shorter if possible)

So it removes the force of rule using a draining time of 30/45 seconds and considered it recommended and not a rule to use a draining time of 30-40 seconds?

If that is correct?

Sulker wrote:

So it removes the force of rule using a draining time of 30/45 seconds and considered it recommended and not a rule to use a draining time of 30-40 seconds?

If that is correct?

this is correct.

The expression "high enough score" already sounds kinda subjective. I'd like to be enlightened from which point you can say a score is "enough".

If there's a song that is just barely shorter than 30 seconds keep it that way. This should not be a criteria to not make it rankable anymore. I'd prefer if people keep an original version of a song instead of editing those to make them longer to play.

Stefan wrote:

If there is no such option, the BAT/QAT will discuss about the rankability of the specific map.

Just wondering if it's really necessary that BATs/QATs should discuss that always.
As an example: The song is some intro of a TV show and something like 25 seconds long. The mapper can't really loop the song to reach 30 seconds and this should be obvious already, simply because elongating a song 5 seconds long will probably sound awful and only work in very rare cases. I think this wouldn't even need to be discussed within the BAT/QAT, it should be allowed to be ranked even though there was no further discussion. Some songs can't be looped, and a proper BAT should recognize that with some rational thinking already. If the BAT really feels unsure she/he should maybe consult another BAT, BATm, QAT or similar by her-/himself and ask for assistance. But this should not be a must in my opinion.

All in all I appreciate not to see super-short draining time like 10 seconds. I guess this couldn't even be called a real beatmap anymore. But blinking with one eye on a 25 second song should be allowed even without looping the audio file.

iirc i think that score angle of the rule was only instituted when score was the primary method of gaining rank - as opposed to now where we have ppv2

30 seconds is a hard cap. 29 seconds is not rankable.
This rule is very old and I honestly think that it's still needed. No need to be swarmed under 15 seconds long maps.

Shiro wrote:

30 seconds is a hard cap. 29 seconds is not rankable.
This rule is very old and I honestly think that it's still needed. No need to be swarmed under 15 seconds long maps.

Sey wrote:

All in all I appreciate not to see super-short draining time like 10 seconds. I guess this couldn't even be called a real beatmap anymore. But blinking with one eye on a 25 second song should be allowed even without looping the audio file.

I think you missed my point I want in this change: I want that maps where one or two seconds are missing because of the rule can still be ranked when it's clear that everything else in the map is good in its rankability (Map spread, playability, etc.) and that we move this rule to guideline to not give people the freedom in mapping 10 or 15 second beatmaps - like you said. And I agree that would be plain stupid so I said this needs to be treated in case-by-case.

Then If this is rule is hope to be changed into this guideline, then shouldn't we must have to add a new rule or additional sentence to that guideline forcing mappers to not map anything that is 15 seconds or below draining

I dun goof'd

Shiro wrote:

30 seconds is a hard cap. 29 seconds is not rankable.
This rule is very old and I honestly think that it's still needed. No need to be swarmed under 15 seconds long maps.

I think the point is that if the official version of something is shorter than 30 seconds by 1 or 2 seconds, it should not be unrankable because of this rule, as it's not viable to extend it, and there might not be a "full version" that exists. For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxSkq1iDKo is 29 seconds long, and it's pretty dumb to deny a rank just because someone "think it's too short". I don't know if that song has an extended version, but you get the idea. Also, we're probably not seeing a swarm of 15 second maps, similarily to how there is no "swarm" of 30 second maps; there aren't that many around, and the point was the original, not cut versions of a song, so you can't just cut a animu TV saizu to 15 seconds with just the chorus or something.

Nice to see you mentioning pupa as it really was one of these cases. The original was 29 seconds and we had to extend a fade out in audacity to actually get the spinner end right for 30 seconds of draining time :/
If you can prove that your version which is just slightly under that border is the official ones there shouldn't be anything in the rank's
way. I also agree with Sey, I don't think many discussion would be needed as most of these cases should be obvious.
Have my support on this.

Stefan wrote:

And I agree that would be plain stupid so I said this needs to be treated in case-by-case.

Remember that this is really just for maps that are close to the border of 30 seconds. As Stefan said, maps shouldn't become shortened for no reason. This guideline should only be followed if there is no other solution. Not-cutting a song is a valid solution here. For example, I have a map, the song of the map only has 27 seconds. I mean, I could slow it down, but it really sounds odd like that. It's ending is really abrupt and can't be stretched by myself. Also, a spinner set to make the map longer is, like seen in the example of Yamanoted heaven, not a good solution. That would be a case in which it is considerable to allow a rank, even though it is shorter than the currently allowed draining time. But cutting a song to merely 30 seconds is something that should not be allowed, it is willingly shortened to make it as short as possible, means that, as said before, there is a solution to make it longer.

tl;dr: This should be a guideline for rare situations, in which there is really no other solution to be found, and not a guideline to make every song cuttable to a minimal amount of time, that would be absolutely pointless. (apart from being as lazy to map the song)

Thus I think Stefan's idea is reasonable and should be considered. Thank you.

Stefan wrote:

The main point in this change is that maps which have this problem currently can be ranked as long everything else is fine. Allowing people to map 10, 15 second beatmaps should still be disallowed and not supported. As guideline it ONLY should be ignored in cases like I've above explained.

..and then somebody will map song 23sec length which of course can't be looped, extended etc ...and you'll get another - why not to rank this awesome "just 2 sec shorter than that 25sec long map ranked earlier, nobody will notice" map, pointing on this guideline.

Hard cap is still needed imo.

Sieg wrote:

Stefan wrote:

The main point in this change is that maps which have this problem currently can be ranked as long everything else is fine. Allowing people to map 10, 15 second beatmaps should still be disallowed and not supported. As guideline it ONLY should be ignored in cases like I've above explained.

..and then somebody will map song 23sec length which of course can't be looped, extended etc ...and you'll get another - why not to rank this awesome "just 2 sec shorter than that 25sec long map ranked earlier, nobody will notice" map, pointing on this guideline.

Hard cap is still needed imo.

Give me current examples which would fit with the issue you've pointed above.

And now we see what's the definiton of guidelines:

Guidelines are important and should be followed in most maps. However, they are NOT rules, so they may be broken in special cases. If you want to break a guideline, ask yourself this: Does what I'm about to do make sense? Is it more fun to play like this compared to sticking to the guidelines? If you answer yes to both these questions, then it is probably okay.

I've marked the important lines in bold to clarify the point of a guideline and so that the current rule should be treated like that. I never ever said I want to support the idea to rank 25 second maps or below, I want that maps which can't be extended or being unnecessary or badly extended for the sake of rule can be ranked without these stupid options. Someone with a clear mind will understand that stuff like this should not be supported for rank and the examples in the OP without using spinners which ends nowhere.

Stefan wrote:

Give me current examples which would fit with the issue you've pointed above.

You saying like your examples provide sense to be by case discussed. :3 no offence (I mean they all can be adjusted to fit current rule)
What I suggest is just to remove words about scores from rule due to obsolete.

The minimum draining (play) time for a map is 30 seconds (but the recommended minimum is 45 seconds). If your map is shorter than that, then try looping\extending\slowing down the song with the audio editing program or use a longer version of the song. This is so people do not try and cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song fully.

Sieg wrote:

(I mean they all can be adjusted to fit current rule)

It can't be done always, see Yamanoted heaven.

Sala-'s post bring btw the exact points about the purpose of this change and how we don't allow some second beatmaps.

will something happen now

Nwolf wrote:

will something happen now

I hope.

agree absolutely 100% with this

there should be ZERO reason why a fight should be brought up over 500 ms under 30 seconds and have a map unranked and pushed out because of it

This rule started way back when so people wouldn't abuse short maps to get play-count up.
I don't know if the current team cares about play-count abuse, but if they don't, then it shouldn't be hard to make this more lenient.

Bump, lets get this moving fellas

Why would you even try to get something that's less than 30 seconds long ranked... can that even be still called a song?

Sakura wrote:

can that even be still called a song?

The question is why couldn't it be called a song if it's less than 30 seconds?

Sakura wrote:

Why would you even try to get something that's less than 30 seconds long ranked... can that even be still called a song?

Marisa Spark

Charles445 wrote:

This rule started way back when so people wouldn't abuse short maps to get play-count up.

Thought there are already some too short ranked maps where people can abuse this as well - current rule isn't really works well to prevent such stuff anyway. If someone is abusing short map to get higher playcount, it can be easily checked by his/her most played list.

Kodora wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Why would you even try to get something that's less than 30 seconds long ranked... can that even be still called a song?

Marisa Spark

Holy crap, what is this little gem of awesomeness lol


I think everything can be called as song as long it has a "build". You clearly can hear out what's a full song and what's just a sound file with some effects.

Bumping this, because I'd like to see this guideline approved in the case that songs can be slightly less than 30 seconds if it's the full song itself. Like Maeglwn was saying, It's stupid to have to worry about a second or two.

Recently there was a speedmapping contest for fun on a 31 second song. The drain only goes up to 29 seconds though. It is possible to add a short spinner at the end, but it really shouldn't come down to forcibly try and reach this 30 second mark. Yamanoted Heaven is also a perfect example of why this guideline should be added.

I was looking through the recent ranks and was reminded of this guideline.


Lanturn, you could say that the same happens for 1:30 songs.

Looks like there was some support for this yet didn't progress through sufficiently. Poke me with a more condensed/concise wording and I'll revive this.

Flaming for now.