Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Are odd map stats a skill?

posted
Total Posts
52
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt
I'm curious as to what people think.

For examples...I mean pretty much anything on like Circle Size 3 or maps that are 4.5-5 stars but only like AR7 OD6...you know...odd stuff. A lot of these I've noticed are old(2+ years), and I'm curious if people think it's ok for the songs to stay this way or if we should perhaps push for songs to be more standardized(which would probably have to be handled on a case-by-case basis with maybe a one time pass by an automated system that catches extreme outliers) or even just allowing us to force a minimum stat on each of the difficulty stats(but not a maximum, so I could force everything to play on CS5 that's less, but can't bring a CS7 down). I know these odd stats can throw me for a loop at times, but I'm not sure if it's...um..."real" difficulty? Community opinion?
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
there doesn't need to be any change
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

B1rd wrote:

there doesn't need to be any change
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
its almost like your inexperience makes things seem harder than they are
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt
Well clearly you guys think these odd maps are some type of skill. Though like I said, I've noticed that most if not all of them are old maps. Are there still a few gems like these being made?

its almost like your inexperience makes things seem harder than they are
It's almost like you're trying to contribute but turning out to just be a jackass.

Now insults aside, it's like when a mapper intentionally changes a commonly used pattern in one spot of the song for the sole purpose of causing the player to not get a fc on their first run, even though, chances are this modified pattern will never be seen in another map again, and it won't trip them up again beyond that first run. In the case of the stats though, it's a matter of trying to put more onto the screen at one time in an attempt to overload the player's senses, which last time I glanced through some map threads...is against what they try to do these days.


Now since the community apparently agrees on that nothing should change, then I'll leave it alone. Which is why I asked for opinions and didn't just throw it up in the suggestion section. So we can just move on now~
Illkryn
269 posts
Joined November 2012
Illkryn
I don't get it? Aren't things already pretty standardized?
CS4/OD7-8/AR8-9????

Your post confuses me.
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt

Illkryn wrote:

I don't get it? Aren't things already pretty standardized?
CS4/OD7-8/AR8-9????

Your post confuses me.
Well right now if we took CS for an example, most songs fall into CS4, and the majority of what remains fall into CS5. As such the "standard" is CS4-5, but you can find songs like this which uses CS3, which by all means is an easier CS than the previous ones. So what I was originally suggesting was to refine the standardization to the point that it forces the standards onto all songs. CS3 is ok for the very easy(sub 1 star) maps, but anything beyond that, should be 4+. At least in my book.

For another example, see this map. CS3 AR7 OD7 4.43 stars. By forcing standards onto it, it would change to something like CS4 AR8 OD7-8(hell if I know the stars rating after that change). And honestly I think it would improve the song, as opposed to detract from it. But that's my opinion, and apparently I'm the minority.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl
No.
Varetyr
794 posts
Joined December 2011
Varetyr
Putting aside the fact I disagree with you about the reasons why you would "standardize" beatmaps (I see your main reason as a "personal preference which fits the majority of the community"... I'm too lazy to debate on that, since my next point pretty much sums up why debating on it is worthless), such standarisation won't happen for at least one reason : People already have set scores on those maps, it would be an unfair (dis)advantage to change settings now.
piruchan
753 posts
Joined October 2013
piruchan
Those weird stats are what make old maps fun to play.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Illkryn wrote:

I don't get it? Aren't things already pretty standardized?
CS4/OD7-8/AR8-9????

Your post confuses me.
standard for easy insane
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
yes, let's enforce standardisation and ban maps that are unique/creative. Sounds fun.
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt

B1rd wrote:

yes, let's enforce standardisation and ban maps that are unique/creative. Sounds fun.
I didn't say that at all.

Variety may be the spice of life, but there's a reason standards exist.

Think I'll go make a CS1 AR1 OD10 HP9 6 Star and attempt to get it ranked just on the principle of the matter. But then, there's probably something in place for new maps hm?

Varetyr wrote:

Putting aside the fact I disagree with you about the reasons why you would "standardize" beatmaps (I see your main reason as a "personal preference which fits the majority of the community"... I'm too lazy to debate on that, since my next point pretty much sums up why debating on it is worthless), such standarisation won't happen for at least one reason : People already have set scores on those maps, it would be an unfair (dis)advantage to change settings now.
Thank you for being the only person that gave me a reason >.>
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe

Wildcolt wrote:

B1rd wrote:

yes, let's enforce standardisation and ban maps that are unique/creative. Sounds fun.
I didn't say that at all.

Variety may be the spice of life, but there's a reason standards exist.

Think I'll go make a CS1 AR1 OD10 HP9 6 Star and attempt to get it ranked just on the principle of the matter. But then, there's probably something in place for new maps hm?

Varetyr wrote:

Putting aside the fact I disagree with you about the reasons why you would "standardize" beatmaps (I see your main reason as a "personal preference which fits the majority of the community"... I'm too lazy to debate on that, since my next point pretty much sums up why debating on it is worthless), such standarisation won't happen for at least one reason : People already have set scores on those maps, it would be an unfair (dis)advantage to change settings now.
Thank you for being the only person that gave me a reason >.>
There isn't some sort of god that sets all of the map settings. Whoever creates the map chooses the settings, and will use whatever settings they want (until told to change them). If mappers want to create generic maps, that's what they'll do.

Nothing stopping you from creating maps with some original settings.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
in the ideal case, a mapper decides what to use based on the map in question, not based on whatever the "standard" is supposed to be.
Yes, there are still maps with low AR and high CS being created. one example would be https://osu.ppy.sh/b/365128
there's also mappers like kiddly that go for a straighter movements, which chanegs the feel while playing fundamentally, example https://osu.ppy.sh/b/365128

to answer yoour inital question about whether or not being able to play such maps is a skill: yes and no. The skill required to play such maps, the reading skill, is a very basic necessity for a lot of maps. If you can read high note density (i.e. low AR in relativity to map BPM) that's indeed considered a skill.
Another thing to note is the fact that "old" maps did at some points tend to have weird spacing and were at some points rather unfitting to the song. That's
obviously not an issue that's limited to old maps, but combined with the difficulty settings, it might make some really hard to play consistently.

about whether maps should be standardized: No. Mappers have different ideas about what to do with the song they map and enforcing any kind of settings will just fuck them over
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
the links are the same.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
I wish dragonforce maps were all ar10 cs5 but if I wasn't a trash tier player I'd be able to play them anyways since this is a RHYTHM GAME and just happens to have circles to click. Mind blowing, isn't it?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

chainpullz wrote:

I wish dragonforce maps were all ar10 cs5 but if I wasn't a trash tier player I'd be able to play them anyways since this is a RHYTHM GAME and just happens to have circles to click. Mind blowing, isn't it?
i wish dragonforce maps came in ar9 cs4 tv size variations
then id be able to fc them
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Riince wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

I wish dragonforce maps were all ar10 cs5 but if I wasn't a trash tier player I'd be able to play them anyways since this is a RHYTHM GAME and just happens to have circles to click. Mind blowing, isn't it?
i wish dragonforce maps came in ar9 cs4 tv size variations
then id be able to fc them
Don't forget to toss on HD DT because if you bash your head against the keyboard enough times you might magically hit the right keys in the right combination accurately enough for a minute straight.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
na make it ar8 if its gonna be a dt map
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt
in the ideal case, a mapper decides what to use based on the map in question, not based on whatever the "standard" is supposed to be.
Yes, there are still maps with low AR and high CS being created. one example would be https://osu.ppy.sh/b/365128
there's also mappers like kiddly that go for a straighter movements, which chanegs the feel while playing fundamentally, example https://osu.ppy.sh/b/365128
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the problem is as bad when the stats are too high(other than hp drain pushing for damn near perfection just to pass). This was more about just enforcing minimum standards. Like enforcing CS4+ on anything over 1 star, or AR8 onto anything over say 4-4.2 stars. But since you've said...
to answer yoour inital question about whether or not being able to play such maps is a skill: yes and no. The skill required to play such maps, the reading skill, is a very basic necessity for a lot of maps. If you can read high note density (i.e. low AR in relativity to map BPM) that's indeed considered a skill.
...that eliminates my original reasoning.

There isn't some sort of god that sets all of the map settings. Whoever creates the map chooses the settings, and will use whatever settings they want (until told to change them). If mappers want to create generic maps, that's what they'll do.
And who is telling them to change them? ;p



As for you kids mocking me back and forth...jokes on you, I think Lesjuh's Dragonforces do need their stats raised. Not to make it hard to fc them, but to make it harder to pass them in the first place, as it's far too easy to pass them. I'm pretty sure they're like the only maps above 4 stars that you can pass with a D and one of the very few above 3.5 stars. Now that change wouldn't be to increasing AR/CS/OD but rather HP to 7-8 instead of 3-6. (though I'd like to see them all on CS5-6, AR 9, OD8...but that's for other reasons ;p )
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

Wildcolt wrote:

And who is telling them to change them? ;p
The QAT, modders, contributors, and anyone else involved in the process of getting a beatmap ranked.

Wildcolt wrote:

As for you kids mocking me back and forth...jokes on you, I think Lesjuh's Dragonforces do need their stats raised. Not to make it hard to fc them, but to make it harder to pass them in the first place, as it's far too easy to pass them. I'm pretty sure they're like the only maps above 4 stars that you can pass with a D and one of the very few above 3.5 stars. Now that change wouldn't be to increasing AR/CS/OD but rather HP to 7-8 instead of 3-6. (though I'd like to see them all on CS5-6, AR 9, OD8...but that's for other reasons ;p )
There is no good reason for everything to have to be a certain AR/CS/OD, it just happens to be that AR9, CS4, and OD7 are the most common. It doesn't mean that a map isn't allowed to use unusual ones. If you want a harder/more standard map or a harder/more standard version of a map, either go find that map, or make it yourself and get it ranked, because unfortunately, as nice as it would be, not everyone is there to tend to your needs and desires. There are enough "standard" maps out there as it is, I'm sure you could be playing those instead of complaining about the unusual ones.

Lesjuh is known for having different styled maps.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Wildcolt wrote:

I'm pretty sure they're like the only maps above 4 stars that you can pass with a D and one of the very few above 3.5 stars.

Riince wrote:

its almost like your inexperience makes things seem harder than they are
just because YOU want every map to be the same, doesnt mean anyone else does. post it in feature requests instead so deadbeat or nathaneal can insta-invalid it, you aren't going to make a decent case here because it's absurd.. most people who aren't also new and self entitled are going to agree with the notion that maps should all have standardized settings to fit their specific comfort zone and skill level.

This is about as rational as someone who only plays EZ mod and therefore is only good at EZ mod saying all maps should be AR3 and CS3 because thats what hes good at. Your justification might be a little different because you want all maps to follow the 'usual way' most other maps are mapped, but the reason is because you have an issue with anything else (inexperience at work) or this wouldn't have been proposed. The benefits of doing this are none and the downsides are many.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
And what happens for people whose skillset isnt limited to what tillerino bot recommends? the players who can play older unique maps just get one less way to enjoy the game just so 2014 players can play the map without having to go out of their comfort zone.

personally, i enjoy playing older maps time to time, and often work my way onto top 50's for older Hards when i can, it's refreshing from the usual ar8dt/ar9 grind.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

Riince wrote:

This is about as rational as someone who only plays EZ mod and therefore is only good at EZ mod saying all maps should be AR3 and CS3 because thats what hes good at.
Oh god... if every map was ar3 cs3...

Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt
Riince, I've already admitted defeat multiple times in this thread, I don't know what you want from me at this point.

Though it seems like quite a few people are defending different just because different and are trying to pretend like there are literally 0 standards on anything presently. Feel free to try and submit something that has circles to a beat that's not there, or has circles that overlap the healthbar, etc. You can try to defend that people are "limiting your creativity" by not letting you do that, but...those are standards that won't be bent at this point.

And just to remind...I'm not trying to force absolutely every song in the game to be AR8DT friendly or AR9 HR friendly or what have you.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

cheezstik wrote:

Riince wrote:

This is about as rational as someone who only plays EZ mod and therefore is only good at EZ mod saying all maps should be AR3 and CS3 because thats what hes good at.
Oh god... if every map was ar3 cs3...

Millhiore is so underranked its ridiculous.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

Wildcolt wrote:

Feel free to try and submit something that has circles to a beat that's not there, or has circles that overlap the healthbar, etc. You can try to defend that people are "limiting your creativity" by not letting you do that, but...those are standards that won't be bent at this point.
The difference between those "standards" and the standard of ar9/cs4/od7 is that kinda shit is unrankable. It's not creativity, it's dumb and makes a map bad. (Well, overmapping can be done well, see: DJ Okawari - Luv Letter, any map by val0108). If you did anything to make a map unrankable, of course they are gonna enforce that standard, as it is part of the ranking criteria, which can be found here:https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_criteria

No where in that wiki page does it state that a map has to be ar8-9, cs4-5, and od7-8.



Riince wrote:

Millhiore is so underranked its ridiculous.
Yeah, I heard being inactive and adding EZ and HT to half your songs does that to you. Still though, one of the most impressive plays ever in this game imo is his freedom dive 4D HT EZ SS.
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt

cheezstik wrote:

The difference between those "standards" and the standard of ar9/cs4/od7 is that kinda shit is unrankable. It's not creativity, it's dumb and makes a map bad. (Well, overmapping can be done well, see: DJ Okawari - Luv Letter, any map by val0108). If you did anything to make a map unrankable, of course they are gonna enforce that standard, as it is part of the ranking criteria, which can be found here:https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_criteria

No where in that wiki page does it state that a map has to be ar8-9, cs4-5, and od7-8.
Actually it's not different at all. Someone came up with those rules the same way what I've done here was suggested. Feel free to compare that rule list to some of the older ranked songs, they break quite a few of those rules because they weren't rules when they were submitted.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

Wildcolt wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

The difference between those "standards" and the standard of ar9/cs4/od7 is that kinda shit is unrankable. It's not creativity, it's dumb and makes a map bad. (Well, overmapping can be done well, see: DJ Okawari - Luv Letter, any map by val0108). If you did anything to make a map unrankable, of course they are gonna enforce that standard, as it is part of the ranking criteria, which can be found here:https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_criteria

No where in that wiki page does it state that a map has to be ar8-9, cs4-5, and od7-8.
Actually it's not different at all. Someone came up with those rules the same way what I've done here was suggested. Feel free to compare that rule list to some of the older ranked songs, they break quite a few of those rules because they weren't rules when they were submitted.
The rules were changed to ensure and improve quality of ranked maps, it's a pretty well known fact that older beatmaps tend to be lower quality. I'm sure the rules were changed after a great amount of care and consideration.

I can guarantee you that they won't be ranking any maps with hitcircles overlapping the the hp drain, or sliders overlapping each other or spinners, it's common sense, that rule won't be changed ever. Just like they won't be introducing a rule saying a map has to be ar8-9, cs4-5, or od7-8 ever.

But anyway, like riince said, feel free to test that and submit a thread to the feature requests.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
A unique map does not equate to a good map.
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt

cheezstik wrote:

The rules were changed to ensure and improve quality of ranked maps, it's a pretty well known fact that older beatmaps tend to be lower quality. I'm sure the rules were changed after a great amount of care and consideration.

I can guarantee you that they won't be ranking any maps with hitcircles overlapping the the hp drain, or sliders overlapping each other or spinners, it's common sense, that rule won't be changed ever. Just like they won't be introducing a rule saying a map has to be ar8-9, cs4-5, or od7-8 ever.

But anyway, like riince said, feel free to test that and submit a thread to the feature requests.
They clearly won't change something if the majority of the community isn't pushing for it. And this thread was made to find out the community opinion on the subject, which you guys are pretty fervently against it...even if I do feel the reasons for being so are wrong /shrug
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
In most cases the Ranking Criteria has rules that, if broken, would result in a technically flawed map, such as two hitobjects on the same tick, offscreen hitobjects etc. Basically that you do something not intended to be part of the gameplay, like hitting half a circle or something, or to ensure that a map is SS-able, such as the auto 1000 points rule on a spinner.

The problem with standardizing AR, OD and HP is that using "non-standard" settings won't result in non-SSable maps, and in some cases probably would result in a worse map if standardized. For example, most slower songs would not work well with AR9, and sometimes not AR8 either, and forcing the map to use one of these settings would result in a map with lower quality than before.

Similarily, in some cases where CS5 is used, the map might play, look and feel better with CS4, and would be better off changing the settings towards the "easier" side.

And the "standard" changes over time with mapping. Around 2009-2010 for example, the most common CS for the hardest difficulty was 5, and the most common AR and OD was 7-8. As mappers and players have evolved, so has the "standard" moved onto CS4 with AR9 and OD7-9. Where this will lead us in the future is hard to say, maybe we'll move to all difficulties being CS4 as the norm, or maybe AR9.5 or even AR10 might become more common, but putting a limit like this would only halt such a process.

Edit: As for your AR1 whateverthesettings were and trying to rank it, feel free to try; as long as you manage to make it readable, playable, and argue why these settings are the optimal ones for your map and whatnot, you probably could get it ranked. The chances are pretty slim though, as common sense is also a part of what goes into ranked and what doesn't, and unless it's a REALLY good reason, your map probably won't get ranked.
Wildcolt
32 posts
Joined November 2013
Topic Starter
Wildcolt
CXu, I'm curious. Are there any maps out there that you'd say function better on CS3 as opposed to CS4? And what exactly do you deem as "slow" with this reference...
For example, most slower songs would not work well with AR9, and sometimes not AR8 either, and forcing the map to use one of these settings would result in a map with lower quality than before.
?
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 52