I have blacks and reds and prefer blacks. This is my opinion. I think I'm ok at streaming.

I'll be getting a mech keyboard soon. I have decided to go with the CM Storm Quickfire TK with MX Blues. I am going with blues since I have to type a lot for school work and I have read a heap of reviews and opinions about MX Blues. Most people that tried using MX Blues for gaming say they do the job nicely. In reality reds are only better for gaming if we are talking about light speed double taps.

On Topic: If you haven't already checked the trillions of threads concerning the best switch dilemma: Most players say that MX Reds are better for osu since they require the least force to actuate and therefore will allow you to tap/stream faster as a result. Some people like Jesus1412 argue that blacks are faster since they have a bigger force pushing upwards hence the 60g actuation compared to the 45g of the reds however, even though they are harder to press Jesus argues that the 15g is negligible and the faster reset allows for faster taping/streaming. Browns are mentioned more than blacks since their actuation force is the same 45g as reds and they have a slight bump so you feel when you press them.

Ultimately it's your choice on what you buy. In reality a red a black a brown or a blue doesn't make a player cookiezi, it's all about how you manage with the switch type and how much work you put into getting good in general. /thread.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the guy I was talking about GG WP Jesus

FlyingKebab wrote:

I'll be getting a mech keyboard soon. I have decided to go with the CM Storm Quickfire TK with MX Blues. I am going with blues since I have to type a lot for school work and I have read a heap of reviews and opinions about MX Blues. Most people that tried using MX Blues for gaming say they do the job nicely. In reality reds are only better for gaming if we are talking about light speed double taps.

On Topic: If you haven't already checked the trillions of threads concerning the best switch dilemma: Most players say that MX Reds are better for osu since they require the least force to actuate and therefore will allow you to tap/stream faster as a result. Some people like Jesus1412 argue that blacks are faster since they have a bigger force pushing upwards hence the 60g actuation compared to the 45g of the reds however, even though they are harder to press Jesus argues that the 15g is negligible and the faster reset allows for faster taping/streaming. Browns are mentioned more than blacks since their actuation force is the same 45g as reds and they have a slight bump so you feel when you press them.

Ultimately it's your choice on what you buy. In reality a red a black a brown or a blue doesn't make a player cookiezi, it's all about how you manage with the switch type and how much work you put into getting good in general. /thread.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the guy I was talking about GG WP Jesus

This is the best post I never made, hot damn I'm so glad I didn't bother typing a paragraph. GJ buddy.

I used a blue switch keyboard before switching to a red switch. At first, the red switch felt... 'Unique', but after a few minutes of playing, I realized how amazing and PERFECT red switches were for me. I have never tried brown switches, but I doubt I'll ever need to. By no means does this mean red switches are the best for you, you should decide by whether you want feedback, or not.

FlyingKebab wrote:

Jesus argues that the 15g is negligible and the faster reset allows for faster taping/streaming

It can't be negligible on the way down and meaningful on the way up, that isn't how logic works. In such a symmetrical system the benefits are always counteracted by equivalent detriments.

I use blue switches, and they seem to help a lot, even if you have low stamina, you can play freedom dive and get tired only at the very end. So yeah, blues or reds, or browns I think would all work.

I think Cookiezi used Red Switches so those have to be the best.

RedPanda wrote:

here we go again

lol

powerade

Narrill wrote:

FlyingKebab wrote:

Jesus argues that the 15g is negligible and the faster reset allows for faster taping/streaming

It can't be negligible on the way down and meaningful on the way up, that isn't how logic works. In such a symmetrical system the benefits are always counteracted by equivalent detriments.

your fingers are designed to go down, not come back up, for obvious practical purposes. So the 15g would be negligible for your stronger downward finger action but helpful to help bring it back up.

That's nonsensical. Cite a source or try again.

mx black master race

Since I only use Cherry MX Reds I can only recommend Reds.

Narrill wrote:

That's nonsensical. Cite a source or try again.

A person has control over how hard and fast he presses a key, yet he has absolutely no control on how fast the switch itself resets. A person can train himself to press the key faster and the limiting factor will always be the switch reset time. Although no one streams fast enough to worry about switch reset times.

Narrill wrote:

FlyingKebab wrote:

Jesus argues that the 15g is negligible and the faster reset allows for faster taping/streaming

It can't be negligible on the way down and meaningful on the way up, that isn't how logic works. In such a symmetrical system the benefits are always counteracted by equivalent detriments.

More stamina is required for streaming the same speeds(which is obvious since the switch is harder). Jesus only says it's not a very noticable change, and these are subjective terms anyway.

v this post down here is true though

you do have to realise that even tho blacks are the heaviest mech switches, they are still way more easy to press than a normal rubber dome keyboard. i dont think that someone who switches to mech for the very first time will really care about if it's 45g or 60g, in the end it's both a lot easier.

Going on with this talk of force required for pressing keys to play osu!, kinda gonna sidetrack from the topic for this thread.
I wonder if anyone has thought the total weight required to press at certain speeds and compare them. I guess I'll do that.

120 bpm * 4 = 480 key presses in a minute / 240 per finger. 10.8kg for red (24lbs). 14.4kg for black (32lbs).

Now with wrist flexors and extensor work outs with 15lbs of weight on each side to start with, which is 30lbs total Edit: forgot to state this is using a barbell with both arms, use half the weight listed above if you want to focus solely on one side. Do 1 lift in 1 second for 1 minute consecutively. Repeat for 5 sessions with about 1 minute break inbetween. Now in theory if you can manage this it should equate to being able to manage the STRAIN of moving your fingers at a relative speed. This of course still requires practice in technique, but having good healthy muscles to support your tendons to move faster in your fingers helps.

Let's say you want to stream 240bpm but can't seem to manage lasting even though you do lots of speed training. If you do wrist felxors/extensors at 50lbs total (25lbs with each weight on each side) in the exercise I described earlier then it should help you last longer.

The point of doing speed training is to strain your muscles which tears them eventually so you can build more muscle, but it's too difficult to use your fingers alone to do this, instead doing the workouts with weights and your wrist is a sort of fast track way of doing it. Again you still need technique and shit so this isn't me saying "lift and get gud at osu!" more as a "I have a theory that weights and shit equate to being able to move and shit".

Now whoever wants to try doing this and gets results please do tell me, because I've seen fit people be able to destroy streams like they're nothing at high speeds and this may relate to why this happens. Fap too, can't forget that

FlyingKebab wrote:

A person has control over how hard and fast he presses a key, yet he has absolutely no control on how fast the switch itself resets. A person can train himself to press the key faster and the limiting factor will always be the switch reset time. Although no one streams fast enough to worry about switch reset times.

You're not wrong, but this is irrelevant for reasons that both you and I have already stated. B1rd is arguing that our fingers are simply better at pressing than retracting, which is a nonsensical claim that needs to be supported by some form of evidence.

Hands and fingers are made to grasp things, it only makes sense that fingers would be better at flexing than extending. Also, reset times on keys are useless to fret about.

That's an oversimplification of the question.

A simple answer to a simple question When was one even asked...? wait what are you even asking about

Narrill and Ranefire the technicality duo.

Narrill wrote:

FlyingKebab wrote:

A person has control over how hard and fast he presses a key, yet he has absolutely no control on how fast the switch itself resets. A person can train himself to press the key faster and the limiting factor will always be the switch reset time. Although no one streams fast enough to worry about switch reset times.

You're not wrong, but this is irrelevant for reasons that both you and I have already stated. B1rd is arguing that our fingers are simply better at pressing than retracting, which is a nonsensical claim that needs to be supported by some form of evidence.

I'm not willing to spend $35 buying studies off of google scholar that are about finger extension to show such an obvious point. If you want to test it yourself while making the conditions as relevant to osu! as possible then curve one of your clicking fingers and push it as close to your palm as possible. Attempt to pull that finger up with your other hand and then compare it to when you hold the same finger up and try to pull it down. It's not hard to see which motion exerts more force. Asking for studies on this is just being awkward because there aren't many of finger extension but plenty on finger contraction.

Obviously less force pushing down will help in some ways but in my opinion it's not worth the trade off for the assistance in pushing up your finger.

I like reds

I have modified red switches to be even lighter by changing the spring in it... and i still prefer regular reds (the heavier option). It's all a matter personal preference.

oh and asking for scientific studies in the osu! forums... pls don't, specialy on this simple thread

jesus1412 wrote:

I'm not willing to spend $35 buying studies off of google scholar that are about finger extension to show such an obvious point. If you want to test it yourself while making the conditions as relevant to osu! as possible then curve one of your clicking fingers and push it as close to your palm as possible. Attempt to pull that finger up with your other hand and then compare it to when you hold the same finger up and try to pull it down. It's not hard to see which motion exerts more force. Asking for studies on this is just being awkward because there aren't many of finger extension but plenty on finger contraction.

What's obvious is the bias in the test you've described. And even if we assume fingers are naturally better at contraction (which we should not just assume), claiming that more force is better is still an oversimplification of the question.

Dexus wrote:

A simple answer to a simple question

Except it isn't a simple question. We're talking about a specific set of movements within a specific range of motion in a complex mechanical system with a very specific and time-sensitive goal. The question isn't as simple as "are fingers better at contracting or flexing?"

Narill is it this complicated to talk to you in real life?

EDIT: You remind me of how I talk with some people in my native language however, I tend to not get into complicated discussion online.

Only if you're trying to convince me of something. I don't generally try to convince other people of things outside forums (cause that's what forums are for, amirite?).

Fair enough.

Narrill wrote:

What's obvious is the bias in the test you've described. And even if we assume fingers are naturally better at contraction (which we should not just assume), claiming that more force is better is still an oversimplification of the question.

I think it's pretty obvious. Primate hands are naturally made to contract the fingers, so we can grip stuff. If you wanna prove it otherwise, then you are the one who has to come up with studies, not us.

Nobody has said that more force is better. What jesse said is that the 15g difference is negligible. I don't necessarily agree with him, because I think what he did wrong with reds was bottoming out with too much force, meaning it had nothing to do with key release, but at least I'm not misunderstanding his post.

I don't have to prove anything because I'm not making a positive claim.

Narrill wrote:

I don't have to prove anything because I'm not making a positive claim.

Actually, argument from ignorance works both ways. You're going to throw out any claims or methods of measuring the physical properties of finger extension/contraction as "biased" or lacking of evidence and then when I give you ways to test it for yourself and collect evidence you decline the methods for your own interpretation of bias.

It seems you're just incredibly awkward to deal with, provide a situation where more force can be applied by opening the hand than clenching it and I'll accept that you have a solid reason for your logic.

rekt

I'm not rekt, jesus just doesn't understand burden of proof. I'm not arguing that more force can be applied with flexion than with contraction, in fact I'm not arguing anything at all. I'm simply waiting for you guys to prove your claims with evidence and reminding you that you haven't. This isn't an argument from ignorance because it isn't an argument.

As for your "test," it's flawed because you're at both ends of it. It's like trying to figure out which of your hands is stronger by pushing them against each other; the one you think is going to win is going to win every single time.

place a 5 pound weight on your fingertips with the back of your hand flat on the surface
contract your fingers

wow that was effortless

now do the same, but close your hand and place it on the side of your fingertips with the nails
try to open your hand

wow that was significantly harder

my right hand is stronger than my left because i use it to masturbate

But that tests two totally different ranges of motion and potentially two different muscle groups.

And since it'll come up at some point, the amount of sustained force you can apply with flexion isn't relevant, what matters is how quickly that force can be applied.

Narrill wrote:

But that tests two totally different ranges of motion.

unless you tap with your fingers bent backwards and hand upside down, it doesn't really matter because of course the ranges of motion are different that's how fingers work.

let's make it a little more 'fair', go ahead and put your hand palm down and then put the weight on your fingertips and bend your fingers back. lo and behold, it's going to be harder than contracting and at the same time you're barely going to lift it because they don't bend that way.

the mechanical advantage the fingers have contracting because of the joints is a PART of why they're stronger.

the muscle is the other part, if you put your other hand on the base of your forearm when you contract your fingers you'll feel a much bigger bulge than when opening them with the same effort.

Red switches. rrtyui and cookiezi approves

That's not what I meant. Closing your hand and putting a weight on top of your fingers tests flexion from a closed position while putting a weight on your fingertips with an open hand tests contraction from an open position. Motion in osu! occurs at basically the same position both ways.

you can literally feel the difference in strength between opening in closing if you own a hand, i don't see why you're so adamant about this. just flex them both ways and feel the difference in muscle from the front and back of the forearms base near the elbow. it's not a small difference. it's like an ogre bicep compared to a midget dick