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[Rule Clarification] MS definition of spinner distances

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D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Kodora wrote:

D33d wrote:

DEEDIT: Also, in my experience, spinners in easy and normal become much easier to recover from by simply ending them on the downbeat, as this makes their ends easier to anticipate and it grounds the player a lot better. Thoughts on this as well?
Sadly it's not always possible, for example see my easy/normal here (talking about osu://edit/00:20:288%20(1), as following note hardly can be ignored - it sounds so bland without it D:)
There are certainly times when it's a lot harder, but you've actually shown me a case where all problems can be avoided. The spinner can end on the downbeat, then mapping can resume at the end of the bar where the beat comes back in.

In other cases, spinners can be simply replaced with a long slider or pattern. In my Touhou map, I placed a spinner at 01:51:810 - in Hard and Insane, which ended on beat 4. For Normal, I used a repeat slider that ended on the beat and for Easy, I even inserted a break. In hindsight, they were needless compromises, since I could've just ended all spinners in a different place and left an appropriate amount of space to suit the music.

This is getting wordy, but there is usually a solution to this problem that would work just fine. iNiS took somewhat unusual approaches to the problem that the player likely wouldn't have missed during gameplay. It's all about experimenting and being unafraid to change or remove something drastic.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Giving this one week before I either bubble/flame. If there are any comments/suggestions/wordings, please give them before then!
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I suggest this be set as a guideline due to the nature of variable BPM, song intensity, and mapping styles. As you have all seen, it is enforced very strictly already and you can't really define something like this in stone.

As for consecutive spinners, I don't see any detriment to having no restriction of when the next spinner can start, but having the second one fairly long is a good fail safe for lower level players since after the first one ends, it'll be good to give them some time to realize there's another spinner there.

Suggested wording:

Give ample time after spinners before placing new hit objects so that players can recover depending on the level of difficulty.
Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.

In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I prefer MS definition tbh.

Mostly because for low BPM songs, a measure can be a VERY long amount of time

And what about for songs that are different time signature?

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/290733

When handling an out of time thing like a spinner, players do not think in terms of beats afterwards, they think in terms of abstract time. They think of "Phew! I did that! Onto the next one!"
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
MS definition is completely unworkable for the reason that this needs to be a guideline, not a hard rule. We don't want people taking out the technicality wand to wave away issues. This isn't something you can just draw out with a solid line and say, "do not pass." What I wrote up is the easiest workable reading that I can come up with for a guide for a reasonable amount of time for the respective levels of difficulty. How would you suggest we word it so that it's easy to understand without drawing a strict defining line?
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I'd see it as something like "You should have close to this amount of space between the end of your spinner and your next note". The word should will leave it as a guideline of how much space there should be, instead of being like "hurr durr you only have 1499 MS time to unrank"
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
"This amount of space" = 1 measure, 1/2 measure, 1/4 measure, etc. Using the stanza as a guide also helps keep the rhythmic stability with the song itself.

Remember I am pushing for this to be set as a guideline so it has wiggle room for alternative stanzas and BPMs.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani

Garven wrote:

I suggest this be set as a guideline due to the nature of variable BPM, song intensity, and mapping styles. As you have all seen, it is enforced very strictly already and you can't really define something like this in stone.

As for consecutive spinners, I don't see any detriment to having no restriction of when the next spinner can start, but having the second one fairly long is a good fail safe for lower level players since after the first one ends, it'll be good to give them some time to realize there's another spinner there.

Suggested wording:

Give ample time after spinners before placing new hit objects so that players can recover depending on the level of difficulty.
Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.

In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
So I'm feeling like this will probably be the best workable ruling. While I still personally prefer a set MS thing, I feel that this works easier if we're deciding this is a guideline.

RIP Lust so uhhh hopefully someone else comes around to bubble this
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
[list:1337]
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Garven wrote:

[list:1337]
and where is the rule? it should be contained in the bubble post
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani

Garven wrote:

Give ample time after spinners before placing new hit objects so that players can recover depending on the level of difficulty.
Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.

In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
I'd edit it into Garven's post but like I can't do that
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
poorly formatted. try again.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Anything happening here? Anyone who is going to formate it again?
Maybe conclusion in how to handle it has been found, but stuff still must be worded. Popped (since loctav gave his comment already) until new format is found.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
Maybe something like this can work.

Make sure that there is a reasonable time delay after a spinner to the next object. This will ensure that players have enough time to recover and react to the next object. In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
  1. Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
  2. Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
  3. Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
  4. Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Better say it in ms
A 300BPM 4/1 is the same as 150 2/1
Or 200 is much faster then 130
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Once again, I'd like to remind you guys that it makes no sense to use an amount of time in milliseconds. I'll even go as far as to show an example.

150 beats per minute means 2.5 beats per second, or 400ms for each beat. 1/4 at 150bpm would mean 100ms between each 1/4.
If we set an amount of time in milliseconds as a rule (e.g. 100ms), then suddenly, at 151bpm, or even 150.1 bpm, you would have to end the spinner 1/2 before the next object, instead of 1/4 as you were allowed at 150bpm.

A rule would only be fine if it can equally apply to all songs, regardless of bpm.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
please people don't make this a rule.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

Sieg wrote:

Maybe something like this can work.

Make sure that there is a reasonable time delay after a spinner to the next object. This will ensure that players have enough time to recover and react to the next object. In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
  1. Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
  2. Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
  3. Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
  4. Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
it's been 6 months and I'm not entirely sure what issue Loctav had with the previous post but for the time being I'll update the thread title with Sieg and see if this can be enforced

Especially because QAT are already heavily enforcing it already
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
This should never be a set rule. It completely depends on how the spinner and patterns are set up etc. It should be a guideline at best.

Also the Criteria Council will discuss about appropriate / recommended gameplay elements for the different difficulty levels so creating guidelines for this topic will surely be included.
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