[Rule Clarification] MS definition of spinner distances

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Topic Starter
DNR
So I've now had 2 maps unqualified for spinner reasons. Which is cool and all, I don't have a clue what I'm doing and probably should have everything I qualify unqualified, but most of the reason I've been given is "in some inconsistent undefined system, there is not enough space" which is super cool and all but uh there should probably be a defined number to establish this.

But passive agressiveness aside, there really should be 2 things

1) Make spinner space a rule rather than a guideline
2) Give a definitive number of milliseconds (or even beats) after a spinner.

So let's use this as a starting point and let's see where things go

EDIT:

Sieg wrote:

Maybe something like this can work.

Make sure that there is a reasonable time delay after a spinner to the next object. This will ensure that players have enough time to recover and react to the next object. In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
  1. Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
  2. Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
  3. Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
  4. Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.
Current point of the discussion

Choo choo.
Garven
Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
Low
support Garven
Topic Starter
DNR

Garven wrote:

Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
So, if we're dealing with various BPMs, should we be making our guidelines based off of by space within the timeline, or by ms?
Garven
Use the above as a guideline to help gauge whether the recovery time is adequate. For those that think better in numbers, the above is a good guide. For a quick glance for issues, the timeline is a good place to start. When you see that there isn't much time in the timeline, then check the ms to see if it really is ok or not.
those
Difficulty is not and should not be directly related to bpm of the music. Therefore, a millisecond amount of time as a basis is inappropriate.
Konei

those wrote:

Difficulty is not and should not be directly related to bpm of the music.
I agree with this, even a newbie should know that playing a map with a high BPM song is harder than a low BPM song. :3
Topic Starter
DNR
Even so, there still should be some sort of set in stone "This is too hard for this difficulty" rather than just having it as "uhhhh it's spacey enough i guess"
Konei

CDFA wrote:

Even so, there still should be some sort of set in stone "This is too hard for this difficulty" rather than just having it as "uhhhh it's spacey enough i guess"
Should this not be a thing that BATs have to decide?

Many mappers underestimate how heavy to handle Spinners are for newbies, that's why there should be a bunch of spacing before and after a Spinner on easier difficulties.

Also it might be hard to make a rule for this since this also depends on the length of the Spinner.
DakeDekaane
We shouldn't overthink this, Garven already gave a nice guide for notes after spinners and it can be applied to almost every BPM.

If you want to play safer, make the next note appear when the spinner is already finished when it comes to Easy difficulties and maybe it can be applied to Normal.
xxdeathx
I'm still of the opinion that lower BPM songs can have a little less beats after the spinner. Ultimately it translates into the same amount of the time.
KSHR
I personally agree with those and Konei. However probably that's not the point in this discussion.
The reason why this has been discussed is to prevent future unnecessary disqualifications that "a note too soon after spinner" will cause.
Clarifying / Having a hardline is the most effective way in my opinion.

Never let me disqualify a map with this reason.. Orz
Konei

KSHR wrote:

I personally agree with those and Konei. However probably that's not the point in this discussion.
The reason why this has been discussed is to prevent future unnecessary disqualifications that "a note too soon after spinner" will cause.
Clarifying / Having a hardline is the most effective way in my opinion.

Never let me disqualify a map with this reason.. Orz
That's actually a really good point but it's hard to make such a guideline. A rule will be quite impossible given the circumstances already clarified.
While a guideline might be good, a guideline is not a good point to unrank something in my opinion. I think the best thing to do for BATs is playing the safe card and give a lot of recovery time to Easy/Normal Spinners.
Kaguya Hourain

Garven wrote:

Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
This pretty much seals the deal.

One more thing we should actually consider though is the readability of the beats after a spinner, which is determined by the Approach Rate of the difficulty. Easy difficulties which might have AR 1 as a difficulty setting (1680ms reaction time iirc) will make the beat actually appear before the spinner has ended which will 100% confuse the player (speaking from personal experience), making them to hit the beat too early due to panic attack.
Topic Starter
DNR
Can this be official or
Kodora
It looks very nice as guideline, but I don't really think that it should be a hard rule. Such "iron" ms limitations may works badly with some songs, and having map unranked due to 1 ms less than required would be pretty unfair -imo, just leave this as guideline.
Topic Starter
DNR
I think people honestly won't give a shit if it's 1 MS off. Unless they're assholes which in that case I will personally help them write their letter of resignation from whatever team they are a part of.

Sort of like how 4:59 minute maps are still technically approvable, because it's like "yeah you know what it's almost there ok whatever i don't care hahahah"
Flower
If this get approved I want it be a solid hard criteria so that nobody confuses with it. (And add "Not even a 1ms exception" if necessary)
Charles445
The big problem with this is that it seems to be defining the distance needed from spinners based on the name of the difficulty, not how hard the difficulty actually is.
There's nothing to a name but an ideal. All of these spinner cases should be relative to the actual difficulty in question.

That being said, there is a point in just about every player's osu! career where they learn to stop spinning and prepare for the next note before the spinner finishes.
In that sense, it's extremely silly to put a minimum spinner distance rule on particularly difficult maps.
Also, the first time a player is caught off-guard by a circle close to the end of a spinner, they will make note of it for future plays of the game.
It works in the same way as circles under slider-ends: It messes you up the first time, then you never forget about the concept later.

So basically, this sort of spinner rule is really only to protect extremely early gameplay, if not the very first plays of a new player. There is no need to be so strict about this.
Topic Starter
DNR
can we tell that to the QATs that are like "3 1/2 beats isn't enough to recover from a spinner" while easy mode players can write the constitution in swahili in the time it takes for the next note to start
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