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[Rule Clarification] MS definition of spinner distances

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62
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
So I've now had 2 maps unqualified for spinner reasons. Which is cool and all, I don't have a clue what I'm doing and probably should have everything I qualify unqualified, but most of the reason I've been given is "in some inconsistent undefined system, there is not enough space" which is super cool and all but uh there should probably be a defined number to establish this.

But passive agressiveness aside, there really should be 2 things

1) Make spinner space a rule rather than a guideline
2) Give a definitive number of milliseconds (or even beats) after a spinner.

So let's use this as a starting point and let's see where things go

EDIT:

Sieg wrote:

Maybe something like this can work.

Make sure that there is a reasonable time delay after a spinner to the next object. This will ensure that players have enough time to recover and react to the next object. In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
  1. Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
  2. Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
  3. Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
  4. Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.
Current point of the discussion

Choo choo.
Last edited by Shohei Ohtani , edited 3 times in total.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
Low
2,006 posts
Joined July 2011
Low
support Garven
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani

Garven wrote:

Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
So, if we're dealing with various BPMs, should we be making our guidelines based off of by space within the timeline, or by ms?
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Use the above as a guideline to help gauge whether the recovery time is adequate. For those that think better in numbers, the above is a good guide. For a quick glance for issues, the timeline is a good place to start. When you see that there isn't much time in the timeline, then check the ms to see if it really is ok or not.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Difficulty is not and should not be directly related to bpm of the music. Therefore, a millisecond amount of time as a basis is inappropriate.
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

those wrote:

Difficulty is not and should not be directly related to bpm of the music.
I agree with this, even a newbie should know that playing a map with a high BPM song is harder than a low BPM song. :3
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
Even so, there still should be some sort of set in stone "This is too hard for this difficulty" rather than just having it as "uhhhh it's spacey enough i guess"
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

CDFA wrote:

Even so, there still should be some sort of set in stone "This is too hard for this difficulty" rather than just having it as "uhhhh it's spacey enough i guess"
Should this not be a thing that BATs have to decide?

Many mappers underestimate how heavy to handle Spinners are for newbies, that's why there should be a bunch of spacing before and after a Spinner on easier difficulties.

Also it might be hard to make a rule for this since this also depends on the length of the Spinner.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
We shouldn't overthink this, Garven already gave a nice guide for notes after spinners and it can be applied to almost every BPM.

If you want to play safer, make the next note appear when the spinner is already finished when it comes to Easy difficulties and maybe it can be applied to Normal.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
I'm still of the opinion that lower BPM songs can have a little less beats after the spinner. Ultimately it translates into the same amount of the time.
KSHR
osu! Alumni
1,668 posts
Joined July 2010
KSHR
I personally agree with those and Konei. However probably that's not the point in this discussion.
The reason why this has been discussed is to prevent future unnecessary disqualifications that "a note too soon after spinner" will cause.
Clarifying / Having a hardline is the most effective way in my opinion.

Never let me disqualify a map with this reason.. Orz
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei

KSHR wrote:

I personally agree with those and Konei. However probably that's not the point in this discussion.
The reason why this has been discussed is to prevent future unnecessary disqualifications that "a note too soon after spinner" will cause.
Clarifying / Having a hardline is the most effective way in my opinion.

Never let me disqualify a map with this reason.. Orz
That's actually a really good point but it's hard to make such a guideline. A rule will be quite impossible given the circumstances already clarified.
While a guideline might be good, a guideline is not a good point to unrank something in my opinion. I think the best thing to do for BATs is playing the safe card and give a lot of recovery time to Easy/Normal Spinners.
Kaguya Hourain
514 posts
Joined October 2012
Kaguya Hourain

Garven wrote:

Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Hard: 1 beat recovery time -> 375 ms
Insane or higher: Any (within musical reason)

Having a hardline is unreasonable due to varying BPM however, so having a little leeway is fine, but this as a guideline should give sufficient recovery time for players of the respective difficulty levels.
This pretty much seals the deal.

One more thing we should actually consider though is the readability of the beats after a spinner, which is determined by the Approach Rate of the difficulty. Easy difficulties which might have AR 1 as a difficulty setting (1680ms reaction time iirc) will make the beat actually appear before the spinner has ended which will 100% confuse the player (speaking from personal experience), making them to hit the beat too early due to panic attack.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
Can this be official or
Kodora
Kodora
It looks very nice as guideline, but I don't really think that it should be a hard rule. Such "iron" ms limitations may works badly with some songs, and having map unranked due to 1 ms less than required would be pretty unfair -imo, just leave this as guideline.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I think people honestly won't give a shit if it's 1 MS off. Unless they're assholes which in that case I will personally help them write their letter of resignation from whatever team they are a part of.

Sort of like how 4:59 minute maps are still technically approvable, because it's like "yeah you know what it's almost there ok whatever i don't care hahahah"
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower
If this get approved I want it be a solid hard criteria so that nobody confuses with it. (And add "Not even a 1ms exception" if necessary)
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
The big problem with this is that it seems to be defining the distance needed from spinners based on the name of the difficulty, not how hard the difficulty actually is.
There's nothing to a name but an ideal. All of these spinner cases should be relative to the actual difficulty in question.

That being said, there is a point in just about every player's osu! career where they learn to stop spinning and prepare for the next note before the spinner finishes.
In that sense, it's extremely silly to put a minimum spinner distance rule on particularly difficult maps.
Also, the first time a player is caught off-guard by a circle close to the end of a spinner, they will make note of it for future plays of the game.
It works in the same way as circles under slider-ends: It messes you up the first time, then you never forget about the concept later.

So basically, this sort of spinner rule is really only to protect extremely early gameplay, if not the very first plays of a new player. There is no need to be so strict about this.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
can we tell that to the QATs that are like "3 1/2 beats isn't enough to recover from a spinner" while easy mode players can write the constitution in swahili in the time it takes for the next note to start
ego_17
525 posts
Joined August 2011
ego_17
that's special about spinners ?
i think "Auto must achieve at least 1000 bonus points on spinners and the object following the spinner must not be visible before the spinner starts."
is more than enough//
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
Can we get Ephemeral or Loctav to add this in?

This has been already unofficially been followed, and I've had to deal with a lot of mappers who refuse to change stuff because this isn't officially in the ranking criteria
fergas
769 posts
Joined August 2013
fergas

Garven wrote:

Using these settings as criteria:

BPM 160

Easy: 1 full measure of recovery time -> 1500 ms
Normal: 2 beats recovery time -> 750 ms
Imho, its should somewhere mentioned about mapset witn normal diff as easiest one.
Exp:
Easy: -> 1500 ms
Normal: if easiest diff -> 1000ms, other case -> 750 ms
smth like that.

ego_17 wrote:

that's special about spinners ?
i think "Auto must achieve at least 1000 bonus points on spinners and the object following the spinner must not be visible before the spinner starts."
is more than enough//
Maybe add line of ms based on maximum AR of diffuclts or even for every AR?
Exp
Easy: most easy use 3~4 AR. Object start to appear around -1500(for 3)~-1300(for 4) ms before it actually tapped.
Took same time object's appearance for every AR and use it as official guide? At least sometimes it would fit better for diffuclt mapsets.

Also can add strick lane for every ar: (time object's appearance)-300 ms. Idk.
sry for bad enlgish ._.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
It would really be nice if there was some further clarification.. I keep getting messages if the spinner distance is acceptable, and I'm honestly clueless.
Bara-
11,976 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

CDFA wrote:

Sort of like how 4:59 minute maps are still technically approvable, because it's like "yeah you know what it's almost there ok whatever i don't care hahahah"
Is 4:56 also approvable?
Back to topic
I use this (as most songs I map are 130-170 BPM)
Easy - 2 or 4 beats (fast parts I use 2, on slpw parts I use 4)
Normal - 1 or 2 (same as easy)
Hard - 1/2 or 1 (same as easy)
Insane - 1/4 or 1/2 (depends on song. If it fits, I'll always go for 1/4)
Extra(+) - as little as possible, which sometimes means 1/8 on 200+ bpm
This seems fine for me, but it might be too fast
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually it's more like
Easy - 4 beats
Normal - 2 beats
Hard - 1 Beat
Insane+ - Anything goes.

Edit: Oh wait that's what Garven said anyway, weeell i derped orz
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Yeah, defining this by beats would be better as it's easy to apply and to check, measuring this in ms makes no sense as songs are defined by BPM, not by ms (sounds kinda contradictoty, but I think you'll get my point).

But I can see this more as a guideline, as sometimes 3 beats and a half can still be acceptable in an Easy imo.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Yeah, besides... faster BPM = harder overall anyway so i dont see why we can't measure it by beats instead.
ego_17
525 posts
Joined August 2011
ego_17
spinners is good element to map easy/normals - they easy to clear and get 300 on them/
but with 4 beats - i feel like not using spinner on easy anymore - mb only in the end
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
so uh
Maruyu
742 posts
Joined July 2013
Maruyu
Eh, can we actually reach a conclusion here? I'd say Garven's guidelines, plus a bit of tweaking around according to BPM are more than enough, and as long as something like this isn't approved questions will be made and issues with unqualifications and such could be avoided by just approving this.
Kyouren
5,656 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
But is be sad for BPM 142 and rhythm is fun, example for this map in my diff:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/221295


:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


EDIT:
So, i agree with those and Konei~

1. Is be sad if a lower vokal is not have a spinner
2. Is not BPM, but rhythm for playing a song, so is easy for playing and listening is good
Last edited by Kyouren , edited 1 time in total.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
W. . . What?
Broccoly
1,359 posts
Joined May 2012
Broccoly
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/225704&p=3557179#p3557179

Actual DQ due to spinner distance
Go check it out if anyone wants a real example as it is the exact same bpm that garven used
Funny how TicClick complains that the gap after spinner should be mapped in Easy when he or she disqualified the map because of that exact reason.

Also, is this discussion even finalized and implemented as of now? Why did this DQ happen if it's not in the rule yet.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
WOW ACTUAL REAL DQ!!!! Wow check this out.
Kodora
Kodora
I wondering why DQs over this already happens, even without this rule being finalized yet. This rule limiting usage of spinners a lot, especially for Easy diffs - 2/1 gaps is too much in cases like lowbpm. I'd prefer this be more like guideline, since we should judge actual difficulty, not just MS distance.
OSUjanaiKATSURAda
390 posts
Joined December 2012
OSUjanaiKATSURAda
don't create rules depending on ur tastes and how u see things ... pls ( i ll agree in easy and easy normals )
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Sakura wrote:

Actually it's more like
Easy - 4 beats
Normal - 2 beats
Hard - 1 Beat
Insane+ - Anything goes.
Basically this however as a guideline this sounds much better.
Broccoly
1,359 posts
Joined May 2012
Broccoly

Kurokami wrote:

Sakura wrote:

Actually it's more like
Easy - 4 beats
Normal - 2 beats
Hard - 1 Beat
Insane+ - Anything goes.
Basically this however as a guideline this sounds much better.
Agreed
Kodora
Kodora
Agreed with posts above, it sounds much better as guideline.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I think that Garven's suggestion is the closest to a happy medium. I'd personally say that you should always leave ample space before or after a spinner in every difficulty, so that it feels more potent.

Depending on the mapset's tier, I believe that two fastish beats in an easy can be reasonable, as long as the following combo's close to the centre. As such, it'd be easy in such a case to give enh consistent spinners. Thoughts on this?

DEEDIT: Also, in my experience, spinners in easy and normal become much easier to recover from by simply ending them on the downbeat, as this makes their ends easier to anticipate and it grounds the player a lot better. Thoughts on this as well?
Kodora
Kodora

D33d wrote:

DEEDIT: Also, in my experience, spinners in easy and normal become much easier to recover from by simply ending them on the downbeat, as this makes their ends easier to anticipate and it grounds the player a lot better. Thoughts on this as well?
Sadly it's not always possible, for example see my easy/normal here (talking about osu://edit/00:20:288%20(1), as following note hardly can be ignored - it sounds so bland without it D:)
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Kodora wrote:

D33d wrote:

DEEDIT: Also, in my experience, spinners in easy and normal become much easier to recover from by simply ending them on the downbeat, as this makes their ends easier to anticipate and it grounds the player a lot better. Thoughts on this as well?
Sadly it's not always possible, for example see my easy/normal here (talking about osu://edit/00:20:288%20(1), as following note hardly can be ignored - it sounds so bland without it D:)
There are certainly times when it's a lot harder, but you've actually shown me a case where all problems can be avoided. The spinner can end on the downbeat, then mapping can resume at the end of the bar where the beat comes back in.

In other cases, spinners can be simply replaced with a long slider or pattern. In my Touhou map, I placed a spinner at 01:51:810 - in Hard and Insane, which ended on beat 4. For Normal, I used a repeat slider that ended on the beat and for Easy, I even inserted a break. In hindsight, they were needless compromises, since I could've just ended all spinners in a different place and left an appropriate amount of space to suit the music.

This is getting wordy, but there is usually a solution to this problem that would work just fine. iNiS took somewhat unusual approaches to the problem that the player likely wouldn't have missed during gameplay. It's all about experimenting and being unafraid to change or remove something drastic.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Giving this one week before I either bubble/flame. If there are any comments/suggestions/wordings, please give them before then!
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I suggest this be set as a guideline due to the nature of variable BPM, song intensity, and mapping styles. As you have all seen, it is enforced very strictly already and you can't really define something like this in stone.

As for consecutive spinners, I don't see any detriment to having no restriction of when the next spinner can start, but having the second one fairly long is a good fail safe for lower level players since after the first one ends, it'll be good to give them some time to realize there's another spinner there.

Suggested wording:

Give ample time after spinners before placing new hit objects so that players can recover depending on the level of difficulty.
Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.

In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I prefer MS definition tbh.

Mostly because for low BPM songs, a measure can be a VERY long amount of time

And what about for songs that are different time signature?

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/290733

When handling an out of time thing like a spinner, players do not think in terms of beats afterwards, they think in terms of abstract time. They think of "Phew! I did that! Onto the next one!"
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
MS definition is completely unworkable for the reason that this needs to be a guideline, not a hard rule. We don't want people taking out the technicality wand to wave away issues. This isn't something you can just draw out with a solid line and say, "do not pass." What I wrote up is the easiest workable reading that I can come up with for a guide for a reasonable amount of time for the respective levels of difficulty. How would you suggest we word it so that it's easy to understand without drawing a strict defining line?
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I'd see it as something like "You should have close to this amount of space between the end of your spinner and your next note". The word should will leave it as a guideline of how much space there should be, instead of being like "hurr durr you only have 1499 MS time to unrank"
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
"This amount of space" = 1 measure, 1/2 measure, 1/4 measure, etc. Using the stanza as a guide also helps keep the rhythmic stability with the song itself.

Remember I am pushing for this to be set as a guideline so it has wiggle room for alternative stanzas and BPMs.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani

Garven wrote:

I suggest this be set as a guideline due to the nature of variable BPM, song intensity, and mapping styles. As you have all seen, it is enforced very strictly already and you can't really define something like this in stone.

As for consecutive spinners, I don't see any detriment to having no restriction of when the next spinner can start, but having the second one fairly long is a good fail safe for lower level players since after the first one ends, it'll be good to give them some time to realize there's another spinner there.

Suggested wording:

Give ample time after spinners before placing new hit objects so that players can recover depending on the level of difficulty.
Easy level maps should give a full measure of recovery time.
Normal level maps should give at least 2 beats of recovery time.
Hard level maps should give at least 1 beat of recovery time.
Anything higher level can be shorter, but keep it within reason.

In the case of consecutive spinners, make sure that the next spinner gives adequate time to account for a lower reaction time for new players.
So I'm feeling like this will probably be the best workable ruling. While I still personally prefer a set MS thing, I feel that this works easier if we're deciding this is a guideline.

RIP Lust so uhhh hopefully someone else comes around to bubble this
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