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[resolved] [Clarification] Usage of "(Game Ver.)" and "(Movie Ver.)" w/o existing marker

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Topic Starter
tilda
The way this part of the Metadata Ranking Criteria is written currently makes it look like you can only use "(Short Ver.)" for official cuts with no marker, as it's the only one that specifies the following:
Usually used to signal that a longer version actually exists.
There are a lot of cases where this can cause friction with what marker we're supposed to apply. An example is Smiley Contrast which has both an official cut used in-game as well as a full version. Me and the mapper both agreed that "common sense" should dictate that "(Game Ver.)" is the correct marker to use in this instance - however, there is no indication of us being allowed to do this. With the current wording, we felt kind of forced into using "(Short Ver.)" for this purpose.

I'd appreciate any discussion on whether this is something that is allowed already, or if some wording changes can be pushed out to make it more obvious.
Drum-Hitnormal
agree that Game Ver. would be the common sense.

i think both Game Ver. and Short Ver. should be allowed
AJT
Previously, (Short Ver.) was only used when the metadata indicated such, similar to (Game Ver.). Since they're now practically mandating (Short Ver.) to be used even with no marker in the primary source, I don't see why they wouldn't at least open up the same option for (Game Ver.).

That being said, the current rule's wording doesn't even force you to use (Short Ver.) when there's no marker present in the primary source, yet I understand that was the intention of the rule - so it seems like in any case there is more clarification to be done.
Okoayu
I think game ver should be fine for such cases, wonder how we can package that into wording to make that clear though
Serizawa Haruki
It actually does say (Short Ver.) shouldn't be used if (Game Ver.) or (Movie Ver.) would apply:

Use this when there is an existing length marker such as -Short Ver-, Short Ver., ~Short Version~. This does not apply to Movie or Game Ver. markers.
It's just not explained well though.
AJT

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

It actually does say (Short Ver.) shouldn't be used if (Game Ver.) or (Movie Ver.) would apply:

Use this when there is an existing length marker such as -Short Ver-, Short Ver., ~Short Version~. This does not apply to Movie or Game Ver. markers.
It's just not explained well though.
The problem being that they don't have a source saying "Game Ver." or some variant so as per the rules "Game Ver." isn't allowed. Now that I look at it, the wording is the same for "Short Ver." i.e. it says use when there is an existing marker (when that's apparently not the intent), so a functional change of wording is probably needed.

The easiest way to align the purported intent of the rules with the wording may be to change the 2nd bullet point to "If there are no markers, you should add them when there are multiple versions of a song to indicate the correct version."



Then change "This does not apply to Movie or Game Ver. markers." to something else that implies that if either of those would be applicable then it takes priority over Short Ver.
Noffy
This ended up with more words and sentences than I prefer but it seems unavoidable---

tried rewriting it like 5 times

how about:

_______________________________________________________________________________________


If there are similar markers in a song's title, replace them with the relevant marker form the list below.
When multiple length versions of a song would otherwise share the same exact metadata, add the most appropriate marker from the list below to the shorter version of the song. Do not add these markers if a track is the only known version of a song.


(Short Ver.)
Used to mark the shorter version when both long and short versions of a song exist. Examples to replace include: -Short Ver-, Short, ~Short Version~.

(Game Ver.)
Used to mark game versions of songs. Examples to replace include: ~Game Size~, (Game Size), game OP edit, OP Version for tracks used in games.

(Movie Ver.)
Used to mark movie versions of songs. Examples to replace include: Movie EDIT, ~movie size~, Movie Cut, (Movie Version).
Drum-Hitnormal
When multiple length versions of a song would otherwise share the same exact metadata

is confusing.

i like AJT wording more clear
Noffy
Issue was that's worded as a guideline and implies both versions would get a marker, when we're currently not adding them to the longer versions.


Tried to combine them, how about:

_______________________________



If there are similar markers in a song's title, replace them with the relevant marker from the list below.

If there are no markers, add one to the shorter version when there are multiple versions of a song. Use the most appropriate option from the list below. This is to help indicate the correct version.


(Short Ver.)
Used to mark the shorter version when both long and short versions of a song exist. Examples to replace include: -Short Ver-, Short, ~Short Version~.

(Game Ver.)
Used to mark game versions of songs. Examples to replace include: ~Game Size~, (Game Size), game OP edit, OP Version for tracks used in games.

(Movie Ver.)
Used to mark movie versions of songs. Examples to replace include: Movie EDIT, ~movie size~, Movie Cut, (Movie Version).
Drum-Hitnormal
sounds much better
Topic Starter
tilda
agree, that is much better
AJT
Yep sounds good
Serizawa Haruki
What if a song has a (Long Ver.) and a "normal" version that is shorter and has no markers? In that case you wouldn't add (Short Ver.) I assume, but that's not clear based on this wording.

Another thing to consider (although rare) is that game and movie versions of a song may not always just be a shorter version but could also be a different arrangement with the same length as the original song, in which case adding the marker would still make sense and should probably be accounted for in the wording as well.
Okoayu
> What if a song has a (Long Ver.) and a "normal" version that is shorter and has no markers? In that case you wouldn't add (Short Ver.) I assume, but that's not clear based on this wording.

the basic premise is that you have two things with identical metadata and we want to label one to signify what version it is so i would figure it wouldnt apply to begin with. if this should be clearer we should change stuff i guess

> Another thing to consider (although rare) is that game and movie versions of a song may not always just be a shorter version but could also be a different arrangement with the same length as the original song, in which case adding the marker would still make sense and should probably be accounted for in the wording as well.

fair, but i'd hope common sense wins there? not sure - as you've said the movie and game versions would likely get different markers in that scenario anyways
AJT

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

What if a song has a (Long Ver.) and a "normal" version that is shorter and has no markers? In that case you wouldn't add (Short Ver.) I assume, but that's not clear based on this wording.
This is something I was thinking about earlier but forgot.

Maybe after "This does not apply to Movie or Game Ver. markers." also add "If a song's longer version contains a marker indicating so, a marker for the shorter version is not required." or words to that effect

I also felt slightly conflicted about (Short Ver.) being the priority in cases where both vers have no marker and the "Short Ver" was actually the original ver and it was extended later, the question being why you'd have to add Short Ver to one instead of Long Ver to the other, but maybe this will have to be collateral damage.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Another thing to consider (although rare) is that game and movie versions of a song may not always just be a shorter version but could also be a different arrangement with the same length as the original song, in which case adding the marker would still make sense and should probably be accounted for in the wording as well.
Noffy's rewordings don't really make explicit reference to length being the only thing that would constitute a Game Ver or Movie Ver so I feel like this is covered.
Serizawa Haruki

Okoratu wrote:

> What if a song has a (Long Ver.) and a "normal" version that is shorter and has no markers? In that case you wouldn't add (Short Ver.) I assume, but that's not clear based on this wording.

the basic premise is that you have two things with identical metadata and we want to label one to signify what version it is so i would figure it wouldnt apply to begin with. if this should be clearer we should change stuff i guess
In the 2nd wording suggested by Noffy this information gets lost unfortunately, so yes adding something about only applying it in cases where two different versions have the same metadata is necessary.

Okoratu wrote:

> Another thing to consider (although rare) is that game and movie versions of a song may not always just be a shorter version but could also be a different arrangement with the same length as the original song, in which case adding the marker would still make sense and should probably be accounted for in the wording as well.

fair, but i'd hope common sense wins there? not sure - as you've said the movie and game versions would likely get different markers in that scenario anyways
There's no such thing as common sense when it comes to metadata, and while some artists label different versions of their songs differently, not everyone does.


AJT wrote:

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

What if a song has a (Long Ver.) and a "normal" version that is shorter and has no markers? In that case you wouldn't add (Short Ver.) I assume, but that's not clear based on this wording.
This is something I was thinking about earlier but forgot.

Maybe after "This does not apply to Movie or Game Ver. markers." also add "If a song's longer version contains a marker indicating so, a marker for the shorter version is not required." or words to that effect
Yes, that's the idea, but putting it this way sounds a bit convoluted, I suggest something more similar to what was there originally (about only applying it when in cases where two different versions have the same metadata).

AJT wrote:

I also felt slightly conflicted about (Short Ver.) being the priority in cases where both vers have no marker and the "Short Ver" was actually the original ver and it was extended later, the question being why you'd have to add Short Ver to one instead of Long Ver to the other, but maybe this will have to be collateral damage.
Technically this could be accounted for by making the rule say that for the version which was released first no markers are added, and the one released later would get a marker to distinguish it from the original. This would also have the advantage of avoiding conflicts when a song gets ranked before the other version is released - right now if the short version is released first without markers, someone ranks a map of it and later the full version is released, the longer one would also not get any markers and the problem of having identical metadata persists. However, if markers are added to the version released afterwards, no matter if shorter or longer, this could be avoided. The only downside is that it probably makes explaining the rule a little complicated and hard to understand.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Another thing to consider (although rare) is that game and movie versions of a song may not always just be a shorter version but could also be a different arrangement with the same length as the original song, in which case adding the marker would still make sense and should probably be accounted for in the wording as well.

AJT wrote:

Noffy's rewordings don't really make explicit reference to length being the only thing that would constitute a Game Ver or Movie Ver so I feel like this is covered.
In the description of (Game Ver.) and (Movie Ver.) itself not, but the main bullet point above says "If there are no markers, add one to the shorter version when there are multiple versions of a song. Use the most appropriate option from the list below.", so if the (Game Ver.) is equally long or even longer than the original, the whole rule wouldn't apply in the first place.



My suggestion is this:

  1. If there are similar markers in a song's title, replace them with the relevant marker form the list below.
  2. If there are no markers and multiple versions of a song have the same metadata, add the most appropriate marker from the list below, unless it's the original version of the song. Do not add these markers if a track is the only known version of a song.
  3. (Short Ver.)
    Used to mark shorter versions of songs when both a long and a short version exist. Examples to replace include: -Short Ver-, Short, ~Short Version~.
  4. (Game Ver.)
    Used to mark game versions of songs. Examples to replace include: ~Game Size~, (Game Size), game OP edit, OP Version for tracks used in games.
  5. (Movie Ver.)
    Used to mark movie versions of songs. Examples to replace include: Movie EDIT, ~movie size~, Movie Cut, (Movie Version).
Aditionally, this would have to be moved/included in the rule above:

(#### Ver.)
When song titles already have a length / version marker not covered above, it should be changed to a descriptive (#### Ver.) marker using title case. For example:
(Extended Version) -> (Extended Ver.)
(Long) -> (Long Ver.)
But I don't see why (Extended Ver.) and (Long Ver.) should only be examples for (#### Ver.) instead of own bullet points like the other version markers, so I'd add them to the list above as separate points.
Basensorex
hi i was gonna write a proposal for something similar due beatmapsets/2233876/discussion/-/generalAll#/4613935 but it seems this has already been discussed and id reaaaaaaaaaaaaally like it to be applied

not only should game ver and movie ver be usable replacements for short ver when the context allows for it, but the markers should always be used when there are multiple versions of a song

i agree with noffy's rewording of this rc section and want it to be applied +1
Noffy
I made an updated version as a pull request which can be read with the comparison here:
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/12290

Will update when it's merged. You may also leave wording feedback on the github page as well, if neccessary.

Since my previous posted draft, added bullets to make explicitly clear not to add to sole versions of a song, and that meta has to be identical between multiple versions to apply markers.

_________

Breaking extended long ver etc into their own bullets seems pointless imo, the entire point of #### ver is to cover less common cases as a general group, with the most common (but still uncommon) of these as an example. If we covered every single thing that hardly comes up as its own bullet point we'd end up with it growing too too too unwieldishly long. If that is still a point of discussion I think it's different enough it would need its own thread.


_______

E: and about cases where game or movie versions are longer... This needs some real examples to worry about, otherwise it seems too what if or not relevant to what's getting mapped, so I did not make any changes regarding that scenario
Serizawa Haruki

Noffy wrote:

Breaking extended long ver etc into their own bullets seems pointless imo, the entire point of #### ver is to cover less common cases as a general group, with the most common (but still uncommon) of these as an example. If we covered every single thing that hardly comes up as its own bullet point we'd end up with it growing too too too unwieldishly long. If that is still a point of discussion I think it's different enough it would need its own thread.
Yes, I get the point of it, but
1. (Long Ver.) and (Extended Ver.) are at least equally common as (Movie Ver.) which has its own bullet point.
2. It's inconsistent to treat these differently compared to (Short Ver.) etc. when they have the same function. Under the current rules, -Short Ver- must be standardized, since it's a rule, but -Long Ver- only should be, since it's a guideline. And if there is a longer version of a song that is released at a later date and for some reason doesn't have a marker in the original metadata title and is therefore identical to the original song regarding metadata, it won't be subject to this rule which seems to defeat its purpose.

Noffy wrote:

E: and about cases where game or movie versions are longer... This needs some real examples to worry about, otherwise it seems too what if or not relevant to what's getting mapped, so I did not make any changes regarding that scenario
It's quite rare but there are cases like that, for example
beatmapsets/1615177/discussion/-/generalAll#/3242135
beatmapsets/1370456/discussion/-/generalAll#/2172676
beatmapsets/1461436/discussion/-/generalAll#/2733597
beatmapsets/1466116/discussion/-/generalAll#/2443843

Sometimes these versions are labeled differently by the artist, but not always.
Okoayu
long ver would fall under the guideline to standardize to (Long Ver.) tho, if the marker is there, and the #### Ver. guideline remains a guideline as applying it is mandatory, but the format is up for debate and should be debated before it is settled on, i think

that being said https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/12290 is merged now!
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