A quick note that I am not an expert nor do I fully understand everything that I am talking about here (I don't have a Wooting myself), so I may get some things wrong or miss out on important things. Please point out these corrections/ommisions if you notice them.

For anyone who is unaware, the former rank 3 player chud son (also known as Cloutiful/Epic Gaming) has recently been restricted for cheating.

The way he cheated was that he use a feature on the Wooting software called Dynamic Keystroke (DKS). Using this feature he was able to set the key he pressed with his non-dominant finger to actuate on an upstroke, where usually a Wooting key is set to actuate on a downstroke. With these settings, by tapping both keys at once, instead of the two inputs occurring at the same time, one would occur when he pressed down and the other when he lifts up. In this way he was able to play high-bpm streams with good accuracy by effectively just doubletapping, leading to many high pp plays including a 2000pp choke, and a number 3 spot on the leaderboards.

From what others can tell, he would toggle these settings only when he were to play a stream, playing the rest of the map fully legitimately. I'm guessing he would've toggled this setting on/off with a keyboard shortcut or the pedals seen below his desk in his liveplay.

The reason I am making this thread is that I believe that this blurs the line significantly between what is cheating and what isn't. Cloutiful did not utilise any unnecessary software in order to cheat, nor did he set a macro or multiple actions to one keystroke. He simply used a setting which came packaged with the keyboard he had, a keyboard which many players have, including many top players, as well as a technique that is considered fair game if you ignore the keyboard settings (doubletapping itself isn't considered cheating).

However, it is clear that from the community response as well as the actions of the osu team that this method is considered cheating and a bannable offense.

The first thing I wanted to discuss is what exactly constitutes cheating and not cheating? What exactly is it about Cloutiful's method which makes it cheating, compared to rake-tapping which you are allowed to submit plays with, and also rapid-trigger/Wooting software which is widely accepted as the next evolution of the game, even though Cloutiful's method is just a slightly unconventional application of these things? Should Cloutiful's method even be considered cheating in the first place?

The next thing I wanted to discuss was where we should draw the line specifically? Perhaps we can say that you are not allowed to have one key bound to an upstroke while another is bound to a downstroke, while having both keys bound to the same stroke is ok. Or maybe we should make it so that any input which doesn't come from the downstroke of a key is illegitimate. Or maybe the issue is not the settings themselves but the act of toggling between them mid map. Or maybe something else? I think this is an useful thing to discuss so we can draw clear lines in the future.

Lastly, I wanted to discuss how this would be enforced. In Cloutiful's case, the most distinctive factor was the abnormal consistency in key hold times, maybe the osu anti-cheat could be programmed to detect such abnormalities. I think the real issue is that if what Cloutiful did was literally just changing the Wooting settings, there are likely many other people who have played around with this method, and even submitted plays with it. Another thing is that even though it is clear that Cloutiful himself viewed this as cheating, other players using this method might stumble upon it thinking it's just a creative way to use the Wooting keyboard, without actually intending to cheat. This is a view which Wooting holds themselves from this tweet they posted in response to this cheating case.

As technology and osu itself continues to evolve, we are sure to encounter more of these cases, where the lines between cheating and advancement are blurred. Although in this case it feels pretty cut and dry that Cloutiful was cheating, future cases may not be. I hope this discussion can prepare us for these future cases.

Also wanted to add that this is what the osu wiki says:

Play fair. Using third-party utilities of any kind to get any sort of advantage is not okay. This includes things like macro programs, aim-assist programs, timescale modification, and so on. If a program is doing something to help you play the game that you should be doing yourself, it isn't okay!

Also, from now on I will refer to this technique as "chudtapping" because it sounds funny. Credit to this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dilwik/petition_to_call_cloutifuls_dks_technique/

I don't have anything substantial to add, so uh,,,, thread very gut.

Personally I think Cloutiful's situation stems from a lack of clear definition surrounding matters of cheating.
Maybe he deserves what he got, but at the same time I can't help but think that this isn't really 'cheating'? At least, it doesn't seem as severe as other cases.

DM FOR MUTUAL wrote:

The first thing I wanted to discuss is what exactly constitutes cheating and not cheating? What exactly is it about Cloutiful's method which makes it cheating, compared to rake-tapping which you are allowed to submit plays with, and also rapid-trigger/Wooting software which is widely accepted as the next evolution of the game, even though Cloutiful's method is just a slightly unconventional application of these things? Should Cloutiful's method even be considered cheating in the first place?

I have a strong feeling that the definition of cheating in the osu! community has changed a lot over the years, especially since Wooting first appeared in the spotlight. Nowadays, something that is clearly an advantage for the game might not be considered as cheating. I am referring in particular to the rapid-trigger, as not everyone can afford a keyboard like this, which means they will have a disadvantage if they want to play speed maps.

All Cloutiful did was to use what was available in the Wooting settings, meaning that anyone with a Wooting could also use the Wooting's Dynamic Keystroke to improve their consistency on stream maps. If we consider the old definition of cheating, everyone who uses the rapid-trigger/Wooting could be considered a cheaters because it gives you a big advantage when playing osu!, which is no longer the case in 2024.

This topic has already been discussed heavily on reddit so I'm just gonna link a bunch of posts here if anyone wants to read them:



Posts with significant engagement (at the time of me posting this):

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1die4ea/where_do_we_draw_the_line_with_keyboard_features/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1die03l/so_where_do_we_go_from_here_on_dks/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dibb6z/is_there_any_reason_why_this_wouldnt_be_allowed/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1diauu5/future_of_keyboard_software_in_osu/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1difee0/should_using_dks_actually_be_considered_as/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dilr6l/actually_why_was_rapid_trigger_allowed_to_begin/



Posts with less engagement (at the time of me posting this):

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1diiqnn/do_we_need_new_official_osu_rules/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dijhu9/cloutifuls_tapping_technique/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dil24b/a_discussion_thread_on_dks_and_where_we_should/ (I wrote and posted mine before being aware of all these other posts)

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dil9r5/can_i_get_banned_for_this/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dilrmf/what_does_one_action_one_input_mean/

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dinfi8/what_happens_after_cloutifuls_cheat_gets_improved/




It would also be really nice to know the osu team's stance on this, and their exact reasoning behind why Cloutiful was banned.

To start out I also do not have a Wooting, but the DKS page on the Wooting website claims that "Dynamic Keystroke is a powerful feature to include multiple actions within one keystroke. It is quite similar to a macro, but without all the automations. You can set up 4 different actions on 4 different positions on your keystroke." With this being said I recall Peppy has said in the past that anything is allowed as long as one input has one output, DK does not follow this rule. I do think cloutiful's method should be considered as even though DKS isn't necessarily a macro, it still doesn't follow the one input for one output rule. You COULD set up DKS to only activate on an upstroke (which is what cloutiful did I think), but it still gives you can advantage that no one else has without a wooting which is clearly seen by his abnormal hold times.

Here is the liveplay that got taken down, it's clear that he's just double tapping yet he's still able to acc high OD speed streams.
https://alicemagic.s-ul.eu/TcWC0nQY

I honestly think the line should be drawn at one down-stroke should equal one input while having an up-stroke do nothing. This is something that membrane, mechanical, and rapid trigger keyboards all do. The only way you can even have an up-stroke register an input is by changing settings in a device's software (slippery slope I know since most gaming peripherals having their own software). Mapping m1 or m2 to a keyboard key should also still be allowed as it keeps in line with "one down-stroke should equal one input while having an up-stroke do nothing." A perfect example of this is Wario, and in the past peppy has said it's ok to do, especially since you've been able to do this in Lazer for years at this point. (So basically the exact same with DKS being explicitly banned)

As for enforcing it, I don't think programming for abnormal consistency in hold times would work as there could be rare cases that a legit player sets off the anti-cheat due to abnormal consistency in hold times (or just double tapping in general could set it off, idk). Honestly, I just think it's impossible to enforce as there really is no good way to detect it. Only way I think going forward is just check for abnormal consistency hold times and wait for a liveplay, if they refuse you can't really do anything.

TLDR: Cloutiful intentionally abused keyboard settings to gain and advantage, the stance I think should be one input for every down-stroke with no input being in the up-stroke (even if there is no input on the down-stroke). And DKS (chudtapping) is probably impossible to enforce, so you'll just have to look at abnormal consistency in hold times and hope the person makes a liveplay where either they use DKS (chudtapping) while doing a liveplay or they aren't able to replicate any of their scores whatsoever.



(I wrote this on like 4 and half hours of sleep, I hope I sound sentient in this.)

This post deserves more attention, the line between allowing software adjustable tools (a term I just pulled out of my ass, I mean softwares like wootility-lekker which allow to change quite some behaviors of your keyboard) like RT and not-allowed software adjustable tools needs to be more clarified.

All your keys should have same settings/switches on the same device (on the same flat plane) and actuation and release should happen when you move your button in separate directions per hand, the keys may not be physically connected such that pushing another releases another.

You could still use two differend devices to press keys if it's with separate hands (tapx or m1k2).

This isn't addressing the main point of your post, but I want to say that I personally find it highly unlikely that DKS was the only cheating software Cloutiful used. Cheaters almost never admit to all of their wrongdoings when first confronted. If we look at his achievements, Cloutiful easily has top 10ish raw DT skillcap aim in the entire game. That can't be explained with DKS. I know he was a good relax player, but it's not the same and other relax players of similar skill levels are generally nowhere near his aim on non-relax (also who knows if he cheats on akatsuki RX as well lol).

I find it much more plausible that cloutiful additionally used timewarp/aim-assist or some other similar form of cheating in conjunction with DKS, at least on some maps. Given his now known history of cheating I simply think it's more likely that he cheated his aim than that he actually happened to have top 10ish aim in the entire game.

Lastly, Cloutiful played TERRIBLY (by his cheater standards) in his (now deleted) liveplay. I believe this can be partially explained by the fact that he wasn't actually using all of the unfair advantages he usually afforded himself.

This is all about "unfair advantage". In my opinion, for a gameplay method to be considered illegit, analysis can be done by sequentially checking the following 3 conditions.

1. Unconventional gameplay

As MrSparklepants pointed out, there is an unspoken convention of how the circle clicking game is supposed to be played.

MrSparklepants wrote:

I honestly think the line should be drawn at one down-stroke should equal one input while having an up-stroke do nothing.

HyperX did not change the gameplay mechanism. RT is basically just another latency reducing technology. However, DKS introduced chudtapping, also known as doubletapping converted into alternating through software, which completely disrupts the convention. This unexpected innovation brings into question the conventional approach to gameplay. It is worth noting that playing with a tablet was initially in a similar situation, but tablet gaming has since become conventional, leading us to the next issue.

2. Discrepancy in the prestige of doubletapping a stream

And it's not over yet. Doubletapping streams is so unconventional, that it has been regarded as not deserving the scores that are normally achieved by alternating. This perception contributes to why chudtapping was deemed illegitimate, also known as "providing an unfair advantage." Therefore, this is not solely a technical issue – it is rooted in a prestige issue.

3. Lack of distinguished status

Since distinguishing gameplay performance solely by accusing people of cheating based on their ultra low UR is impractical, it may not be feasible to assign a score flag similar to TD, which is used for scores achieved on touch screen devices. This stops the follow-up measures to resolve the discrepency mentioned in the previous condition, which underscores the final aspect of the upcoming conclusion.

Conclusion

Based on the aforementioned points, we may draw the conclusion that an unconventional gameplay method, which yields scores of equal status but not the same prestige as those achieved by conventional gameplay, would be judged as illegit. For a verdict to be reached, all three conditions need to be simultaneously met.
Tablets and RT devices do not match the second condition, and touch devices are ruled out by the third condition.

I think wooting themselves said it best:

wooting(on twitter) wrote:

In this case, the DKS setting in question can give a clear unfair advantage by achieving high accuracy in streaming sections with a double-tap motion, which usually can only be achieved with alternating tap motion. Whereas an alternating tap motion requires a significantly greater level of skill to execute than the double-tap motion.

...

“If a program is doing something to help you play the game that you should be doing yourself, it isn’t okay”

DKS (a program) helps you imitate an alternating motion with high accuracy using a double-tap motion. An alternating motion you should be doing yourself.

I honestly didn't even know keyboards could have programming on up-strokes (aka as the key is being un-pressed). That is wild to me.

That being said, I think it would still fall under the purview of "one key doing two actions" and would be bannable. Nevermind that Cloutiful's hold distribution (as seen through a BTMC clip) was abnormally centered on 63 (or 42 NM) to the point there was consistently a single spire at or around 63ms holding time compared to other players that had a more clearly bell-curved spread of hold times, so in his case banning/restricting him is a clear and positive choice.

In any case, if it's an option that allows for multiple actions to be done with one keystroke, it shouldn't be allowed. It seems dks does this, so it shouldn't be allowed. Seems rather straightforward to me.

lmao reading about this is wild. I think it's a pretty grey area and if it's bannable then I don't know how it's going to be detected and enforced.

DM FOR MUTUAL wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/1dibb6z/is_there_any_reason_why_this_wouldnt_be_allowed/

This made me laugh. the youtube link posted in that thread to a similar concept was also interesting https://youtu.be/ar-Krx-U3lU?si=YIfQgkMDil67zgYU
It's technically still one input per key but you're doing 2 inputs in one tapping motion. They should probably expand on the rules concerning this, that's all I can say.

I personally got a wooting UwU keypad (https://wooting.io/uwu) some time ago because someone introduced it to me and rapid trigger alone really does feel like cheating at times. Unfortunately I got it way after I burned out from osu, but man I really could have used this back when I was still actively playing lol. Osu might need a new rule section specifically addressing wooting and analog keys, on what kind of settings are allowed and what aren't. And again, I don't know if they'll be able to detect and enforce such rules. We could also just ban analog keys altogether but I think that's going overboard

Uncouple stream BPM from PP calculations. Bam, problem solved.


(I am only half serious).

What if I were to build a custom keypad myself where the left key actuates on an upstroke mechanically? That would essentially archieve the same result as the way Cloutiful utilized the Wooting DKS function. And technically count the same as this contraption, which apparently is allowed:


Since it would be possible to replicate his playstyle on hardware only, the argument that he used software to gain an advantage would fall apart. The now only remaining ground of debate would be the argument that chudtapping requires less skill, which is also the case for lots of other techniques and rapid trigger itself.

With the baseline that the way Cloutiful utilized DKS, would be replicable only with hardware, it follows that before the point of Cloutiful getting banned, it was not clear, whether or not using DKS in this way was bannable and therefore one shouldn't have been banned from "innocently" using this, but rather given another chance after it has been made clear not to use DKS in the way Cloutiful did.
The actions I would've recommended are just wiping Cloutiful's Scores that are affected and not banishing him from the game, and to force him to not further utilize such a technique.

kevin0xf wrote:

What if I were to build a custom keypad myself where the left key actuates on an upstroke mechanically? That would essentially archieve the same result as the way Cloutiful utilized the Wooting DKS function. And technically count the same as this contraption, which apparently is allowed:


Since it would be possible to replicate his playstyle on hardware only, the argument that he used software to gain an advantage would fall apart. The now only remaining ground of debate would be the argument that chudtapping requires less skill, which is also the case for lots of other techniques and rapid trigger itself.

With the baseline that the way Cloutiful utilized DKS, would be replicable only with hardware, it follows that before the point of Cloutiful getting banned, it was not clear, whether or not using DKS in this way was bannable and therefore one shouldn't have been banned from "innocently" using this, but rather given another chance after it has been made clear not to use DKS in the way Cloutiful did.
The actions I would've recommended are just wiping Cloutiful's Scores that are affected and not banishing him from the game, and to force him to not further utilize such a technique.

Interesting points. You should reach out to osu! staff and ask about this tbh.

kevin0xf wrote:

What if I were to build a custom keypad myself where the left key actuates on an upstroke mechanically? That would essentially archieve the same result as the way Cloutiful utilized the Wooting DKS function. And technically count the same as this contraption, which apparently is allowed:


Since it would be possible to replicate his playstyle on hardware only, the argument that he used software to gain an advantage would fall apart. The now only remaining ground of debate would be the argument that chudtapping requires less skill, which is also the case for lots of other techniques and rapid trigger itself.

With the baseline that the way Cloutiful utilized DKS, would be replicable only with hardware, it follows that before the point of Cloutiful getting banned, it was not clear, whether or not using DKS in this way was bannable and therefore one shouldn't have been banned from "innocently" using this, but rather given another chance after it has been made clear not to use DKS in the way Cloutiful did.
The actions I would've recommended are just wiping Cloutiful's Scores that are affected and not banishing him from the game, and to force him to not further utilize such a technique.

This doesn't excuse the fact that he changed wooting profiles in his liveplay to hide the fact that he was using DKS. As for the device you mentioned, I'm going off the picture, the keyswitch is still operating at a down-stroke, not an up-stroke. Fundamentally DKS does not follow the one input for one output rule as even with cloutiful's settings he's doing 2 inputs for 1 output (press+release for a output). Not to mention I'm certain that you couldn't get the inhuman 63UR (42NM UR) consistently on that device.

I would say the situation of DKS is similar to bump fire stock: it is somewhat cheating since it fundamentally changes the way you use something more effectively (for example a keyboard to have more taps in a single frame or a semi-auto rifle to make it almost fully automatic), but it is only powerful to those who can master it and still needs a substantial level of skill, because DKS is flaky and unstable AF if you cannot time it right, and bump fire stock has terrible accuracy since it bumps back and forth due to recoil, it also hurts your arm when you initially use it.

BTW, Valve also decided to ban Snap Tap/SOCD in CS2. I think we can take some inspiration from it and justify what is okay and what is not as well.