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HR & HD Score Multiplier Discussion

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Mother Nature
Topic Starter
Mother Nature
I've been playing with HD for a short time and I consider it nearly as satisfying as NM, with the only difference being the reading. For some people it's a problem, for others it's not, but for me it's not a big deal.

However, I also tried HR for a bit and I never realized how special it is. It keeps the approach circles like NM, but buffs the difficulty settings and flips the map. I had a really hard time learning this mod because it makes the map more difficult to combo or to obtain good accuracy. The only thing that makes HR easier than NM and HD is on easy and normal maps, when the circle size and approach rate are low.

Once again, I'd like to have the community's opinion based on something very obvious in the game: Score Multiplier.
I often question myself if HR should worth more than HD for its complexity. I find it quite crazy to see insane HR scores (especially on 7 stars tech maps) in the middle of HD scores. Plus, I see a lot of players setting scores with HDDT and getting them in the global ranking nowadays, which is why it's extremely rare to see DTHR scores in the leaderboards from 5 stars maps, as well as the fact that they are AR11 and OD11.
What's your opinion on this?
KS Wicher
601 posts
Joined March 2019
KS Wicher
HD - changes reading
HR - changes reading (ar), precision (cs), tapping (od)

Idk why the multiplers are the same honestly, the same thing with dt scores having same multiplier as hdhr scores

Everyone just Got used to it Ig and its not a big deal
Naiad
614 posts
Joined May 2019
Naiad
You're right and I believe the general community consensus is in agreement.

IMO these score multipliers would make sense:

HD: 1.06x

HR: 1.12x

DT: 1.24x

There is no doubt that on the vast majority of maps DT is harder than HDHR.

FL is a lot harder to deal with. Personally I'd honestly rather have +DT be more score multiplier than +HDHRFL, but I think that most people would disagree with me and that would also require +DT to be worth at least 1.4x in all likelihood, and I don't think that would fly either.
Last edited by Naiad , edited 1 time in total.
Nanofranne
692 posts
Joined May 2018
Nanofranne
HD makes you need to adapt on how you pass/fc the map. You need to pay more attention to the music and patterns by adapting to circles only appearing briefly. This is engaging with your reading skillsets. Maps are the same regardless.

HR elevate whole difficulty, forcing you to play much better to pass/fc the map than you would without mods. You need to tap and aim much more precisely due to OD 10 and higher CS, react and process patterns faster by basically AR 10, Quickly adapting to some awkwardness of flipped axis, perhaps even memorise a bit if you're a slow reader like me. And above all, you can't get a leeway out on some sleazy diff spike or you're dead.

for this reasoning, Personally HR definitely should be more rewarding than HD. If I were peppy, I'd keep HD to 1.06x score and make HR 1.09x
Last edited by Nanofranne , edited 5 times in total.
Joon Yorigami
1,009 posts
Joined September 2020
Joon Yorigami
I genuinely think that HD multi == HR multi is fine actually, while generally HR will be harder than HD on most maps, by weighting HR more it will just devalue HD in low AR/reading maps. And it's not like the lower HR score multiplier kills the incentive to use HR either, HR gives higher PP so naturally those who seek higher PP plays will use HR, maybe even be used in conjunction with HD.

Anyway with difficulty adjustment mods coming in the future I think this discussion will be much more complicated (but interesting), I guess only time will tell when osu!lazer becomes the standard
Naiad
614 posts
Joined May 2019
Naiad

Joon Yorigami wrote:

I genuinely think that HD multi == HR multi is fine actually, while generally HR will be harder than HD on most maps, by weighting HR more it will just devalue HD in low AR/reading maps. And it's not like the lower HR score multiplier kills the incentive to use HR either, HR gives higher PP so naturally those who seek higher PP plays will use HR, maybe even be used in conjunction with HD.

Anyway with difficulty adjustment mods coming in the future I think this discussion will be much more complicated (but interesting), I guess only time will tell when osu!lazer becomes the standard
How is HD multi = HR multi fine when be your own admission HR is harder on most maps? It seems to me that you're placing inherently more importance on low ar/reading maps than other maps.
Mother Nature
Topic Starter
Mother Nature

Naiad wrote:

You're right and I believe the general community consensus is in agreement.

IMO these score multipliers would make sense:

HD: 1.06x

HR: 1.12x

DT: 1.24x

There is no doubt that on the vast majority of maps DT is harder than HDHR.

FL is a lot harder to deal with. Personally I'd honestly rather have +DT be more score multiplier than +HDHRFL, but I think that most people would disagree with me and that would also require +DT to be worth at least 1.4x in all likelihood, and I don't think that would fly either.
What about we don't touch HD and DT, but just increase the HR score multiplier by a bit? I would have preferred that as the first change to avoid confusion among players. It's important to note that too much change can have a negative rather than a positive impact on the community.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to put DT above HDHRFL. This change would be a huge disadvantage for non-DT players because they will have to make more effort in memorization and precision in order to reach the leaderboards. Just imagine a HDHRFL SS getting sniped by a DT A rank on an 3 stars map, do you think it will make sense?
KS Wicher
601 posts
Joined March 2019
KS Wicher
If someone is willing to grind 1k playcount on a single map just to get #1 on a leaderboard then someone will for sure adapt their skillset for the same reason but i see your point, dt doesnt need a buff but hr for sure does (multiplier buff ofc)
Naiad
614 posts
Joined May 2019
Naiad

Mother Nature wrote:

Naiad wrote:

You're right and I believe the general community consensus is in agreement.

IMO these score multipliers would make sense:

HD: 1.06x

HR: 1.12x

DT: 1.24x

There is no doubt that on the vast majority of maps DT is harder than HDHR.

FL is a lot harder to deal with. Personally I'd honestly rather have +DT be more score multiplier than +HDHRFL, but I think that most people would disagree with me and that would also require +DT to be worth at least 1.4x in all likelihood, and I don't think that would fly either.
What about we don't touch HD and DT, but just increase the HR score multiplier by a bit? I would have preferred that as the first change to avoid confusion among players. It's important to note that too much change can have a negative rather than a positive impact on the community.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to put DT above HDHRFL. This change would be a huge disadvantage for non-DT players because they will have to make more effort in memorization and precision in order to reach the leaderboards. Just imagine a HDHRFL SS getting sniped by a DT A rank on an 3 stars map, do you think it will make sense?
I never said that a HDHRFL SS should get sniped by a DT A rank, but regardless on many maps the DT A rank (FC) would in fact be the better score.

If we increase the HR score multiplier only, DT will be even more overshadowed than it already is by HDHR scores.
Last edited by Naiad , edited 1 time in total.
Fxjlk
1,207 posts
Joined July 2014
Fxjlk
I don't think HR is a lot harder for most maps, there are a lot of low star maps (<4 star) with low AR where HR makes the map way easier compared to HD. Low star maps make up way more maps than people realize, for me 8100/18300 of my beatmaps are AR 8 and below and I don't specifically choose maps based on AR, only whether I like the song or not.

Given this the multiplier of HR should be higher but not by that much
Joon Yorigami
1,009 posts
Joined September 2020
Joon Yorigami

Naiad wrote:

Joon Yorigami wrote:

I genuinely think that HD multi == HR multi is fine actually, while generally HR will be harder than HD on most maps, by weighting HR more it will just devalue HD in low AR/reading maps. And it's not like the lower HR score multiplier kills the incentive to use HR either, HR gives higher PP so naturally those who seek higher PP plays will use HR, maybe even be used in conjunction with HD.

Anyway with difficulty adjustment mods coming in the future I think this discussion will be much more complicated (but interesting), I guess only time will tell when osu!lazer becomes the standard
How is HD multi = HR multi fine when be your own admission HR is harder on most maps? It seems to me that you're placing inherently more importance on low ar/reading maps than other maps.
I don't think that necessarily because HR is harder it should give more score generally, like I said before there is still an incentive to use HR, and if you desire higher score anyway: in most cases if you can HR you can also likely HDHR it, while if you can HD it, it does not mean that you can HDHR.

However DTHR vs DTHD is a more apparent issue and I can see why you would want HR to have a higher base multiplier
One Autumn Leaf
27 posts
Joined November 2020
One Autumn Leaf

Naiad wrote:

Joon Yorigami wrote:

I genuinely think that HD multi == HR multi is fine actually, while generally HR will be harder than HD on most maps, by weighting HR more it will just devalue HD in low AR/reading maps. And it's not like the lower HR score multiplier kills the incentive to use HR either, HR gives higher PP so naturally those who seek higher PP plays will use HR, maybe even be used in conjunction with HD.

Anyway with difficulty adjustment mods coming in the future I think this discussion will be much more complicated (but interesting), I guess only time will tell when osu!lazer becomes the standard
How is HD multi = HR multi fine when be your own admission HR is harder on most maps? It seems to me that you're placing inherently more importance on low ar/reading maps than other maps.

Tbh I think HD multi = HR multi is actually justifiable. For example, there are maps like biri biri [eringiRa’s Hidden expert diff, beatmapsets/2103460#osu/4413426] where that map just become way easier to play because the map was originally AR 6. Ofc that’s only special case because fundamentally HR is harder because of the aim control, finger control, and HP drain. But I believe if you master your precision, playing HR will be playing like NM. The same argument can be made for HD, HD is hard because you have to read stacked circles, trust your timing, and hope you don’t randomly shit miss. My stupid brain can’t understand HD but some people play it like NM because they mastered their reading and sense of rhythm.

Now there is a topic I thought about why there’s more HD players than HR players and the reason is pretty simple. There are more fun reading maps than precision maps. I don’t hear much players showing cool 6.5+ cs maps in multiplayer lobbies.
Last edited by One Autumn Leaf , edited 1 time in total.
Naiad
614 posts
Joined May 2019
Naiad

Joon Yorigami wrote:

Naiad wrote:

Joon Yorigami wrote:

I genuinely think that HD multi == HR multi is fine actually, while generally HR will be harder than HD on most maps, by weighting HR more it will just devalue HD in low AR/reading maps. And it's not like the lower HR score multiplier kills the incentive to use HR either, HR gives higher PP so naturally those who seek higher PP plays will use HR, maybe even be used in conjunction with HD.

Anyway with difficulty adjustment mods coming in the future I think this discussion will be much more complicated (but interesting), I guess only time will tell when osu!lazer becomes the standard
How is HD multi = HR multi fine when be your own admission HR is harder on most maps? It seems to me that you're placing inherently more importance on low ar/reading maps than other maps.
I don't think that necessarily because HR is harder it should give more score generally, like I said before there is still an incentive to use HR, and if you desire higher score anyway: in most cases if you can HR you can also likely HDHR it, while if you can HD it, it does not mean that you can HDHR.

However DTHR vs DTHD is a more apparent issue and I can see why you would want HR to have a higher base multiplier
So what should reward you with more score, if not the increased difficulty of the map due to the mods you applied? And your secondary argument basically boils down to "yeah HD mod multiplier is broken, so if you can't beat them join them".
Last edited by Naiad , edited 1 time in total.
Mother Nature
Topic Starter
Mother Nature

Fxjlk wrote:

I don't think HR is a lot harder for most maps, there are a lot of low star maps (<4 star) with low AR where HR makes the map way easier compared to HD. Low star maps make up way more maps than people realize, for me 8100/18300 of my beatmaps are AR 8 and below and I don't specifically choose maps based on AR, only whether I like the song or not.

Given this the multiplier of HR should be higher but not by that much
That's what I think too. As I said in the original post, HR is easier than HD on low stars maps because of the low AR. I just can't read anything below AR7 with HD properly so I'll be less tempted to use this mod in these star ranges.

However, I also took into account harder maps with high AR and CS with NM concluding that we could discuss this decision. The higher you go in the SR, the harder it is to see HR scores in the leaderboards because it's just so damn hard. Something like x1.07 or x1.08 would be good to me, but I'd like to make it clear that it won't impact the score multiplier of HDHR.
Joon Yorigami
1,009 posts
Joined September 2020
Joon Yorigami

Naiad wrote:

So what should reward you with more score, if not the increased difficulty of the map due to the mods you applied? And your secondary argument basically boils down to "yeah HD mod multiplier is broken, so if you can't beat them join them".
HDHR > HR >= HD no? or am I misunderstanding

anyway I think that because not all of the time HR is harder than HD essentially groups both of them into being "similar" difficulty mods. The way I look at it is that of the 4 main mods of osu, two makes the map mechanically harder (HR/DT), and two that make reading harder (HD/FL). DT is harder than HR and FL is harder than HD (duh) so they (DT/FL) get a higher multiplier than HR and HD. the case with FL and DT is similar to HR, not all maps are harder with FL than with DT and vice-versa. (for me at least) this is enough to justify DT ≈ FL, and I guess I just use the same logic when it comes to HR vs HD.
Naiad
614 posts
Joined May 2019
Naiad

Joon Yorigami wrote:

Naiad wrote:

So what should reward you with more score, if not the increased difficulty of the map due to the mods you applied? And your secondary argument basically boils down to "yeah HD mod multiplier is broken, so if you can't beat them join them".
HDHR > HR >= HD no? or am I misunderstanding

anyway I think that because not all of the time HR is harder than HD essentially groups both of them into being "similar" difficulty mods. The way I look at it is that of the 4 main mods of osu, two makes the map mechanically harder (HR/DT), and two that make reading harder (HD/FL). DT is harder than HR and FL is harder than HD (duh) so they (DT/FL) get a higher multiplier than HR and HD. the case with FL and DT is similar to HR, not all maps are harder with FL than with DT and vice-versa. (for me at least) this is enough to justify DT ≈ FL, and I guess I just use the same logic when it comes to HR vs HD.
But DT isn't always harder than HR. It just is most of the time, just like HR is harder than HD most of the time.
Last edited by Naiad , edited 2 times in total.
Sublime
49 posts
Joined August 2013
Sublime
As KS Wicher mentioned HR changes reading (ar), precision (cs), and tapping (od). The only similarity it shares with NM is that you can see incoming approach circles.

I feel like HR and DT should provide a greater score multiplier than HD. Clearly HD is easier when you see more of those on the leaderboards.

Something to consider is that even with the slightest multiplier changes you'd still get shuffled leaderboards.

For example, the reason why you see many HDHR scores higher than DT scores of the same acc or better is because technically HD HR provides a larger score multiplier.

HD 1.06 x HR 1.06 = 1.1236x (the game only shows two digits after the decimal point)
whereas
DT = 1.12x

Imo, I think a fair change would be
HD 1.06x (unchanged)
HR 1.08-1.10x
FL 1.18x
DT 1.18-1.24x

Reasoning is that HD is clearly the easiest of these mods, HR is usually more challenging, and DT and FL arguably the most challenging.
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