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Developing Dan in osu!std

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VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT
Hello friends! I hope you all know what Dan Reform is (relevant in o!mania and o!ctb). For those who don't know, "dans" - meaning steps, are basically measurements of how good you are by measuring your average on 4 maps. In o!mania, it goes in the following order: Jack, Tech, Speed, Stamina, and to clear the maps, you need to score 96%.

So, I want to take on this task and over the course of six months create Dan Reform 1-10th (α, β, γ, δ, ε), with the following gameplay order: Jump, Stream, Tech, Speed Stamina. The rules for playing these dans will be developed later. For now, assumptions include playing in SV2 and needing a 95% clear. It's possible that playing tech maps with SV2 might be inconvenient, so everything will be adjusted later.

Since I'm not very experienced in the game mode myself, I would like your help in building a list of maps for each dan level. I would be very grateful, and I hope to create a good Dan Reform in osu!std. (For now, the list includes maps like "The Empress," "Volcanic," "Future Dominators.")
Wimpy Cursed
1,121 posts
Joined July 2021
Wimpy Cursed
I was actually thinking about this a few days ago.
Though, I don't have the mapping experience nor knowledge about technicity on higher levels
McEndu
1,161 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu
Name it something other than Reform. Only the word Dan is important. Think Reform as a trademark.

If possible maybe also use osu!lazer playlists.

Where should we put the 1st dan line at, and should we make Kyu courses?

For reference, beatmania IIDX goes from 7th kyu for the very beginners, up to 1th kyu for people knowing the basics, then 1st dan to 10th dan, then the two 伝s for the highest level players.
DM FOR MUTUAL
606 posts
Joined March 2021
DM FOR MUTUAL
Btw there was a similar thing that died called the osu!dan project

https://discord.com/invite/uZRdPEcZ8B

They had a different approach, where instead of passing one dan at a time of 4 maps from each skillset, there's 20 levels for each skillset and you can be different levels for different skillsets. Maybe you could look into continuing where they left off.

I couldn't find any other dan projects for osu standard after a quick google search, which was weird because I'd assume this would be something people would be really interested in.



Also instead of "stream" maybe it's better to go with "flow aim" as the term, and just have the last skill as "speed". The lowest we could probably go with star rating would be the 4 star range, because I feel like that's where these skills start being properly differentiated.

Other options for skills could be maybe reading, finger control, alt, and precision. Maybe even accuracy, consistency and passes like what the osu!dan project were planning.

And for skills like jumps, misscount is better than accuracy as an indicator of how well you can play the map imo. I think accuracy is better for the other skillsets though.



Another option could maybe be to pull from the tournament scene. I'm not well versed in tournaments but they already have this thing going on with defined skillsets where the Nomod 1 map is always an aim map, the Nomod 2 map is always a stream map, etc. I feel like it would be useful to get help from people experienced with creating map pools for tournaments, because I feel like what they do is similar to this.
Last edited by DM FOR MUTUAL , edited 2 times in total.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

DM FOR MUTUAL wrote:

Btw there was a similar thing that died called the osu!dan project

https://discord.com/invite/uZRdPEcZ8B

They had a different approach, where instead of passing one dan at a time of 4 maps from each skillset, there's 20 levels for each skillset and you can be different levels for different skillsets. Maybe you could look into continuing where they left off.

I couldn't find any other dan projects for osu standard after a quick google search, which was weird because I'd assume this would be something people would be really interested in.



Also instead of "stream" maybe it's better to go with "flow aim" as the term, and just have the last skill as "speed". The lowest we could probably go with star rating would be the 4 star range, because I feel like that's where these skills start being properly differentiated.

Other options for skills could be maybe reading, finger control, alt, and precision. Maybe even accuracy, consistency and passes like what the osu!dan project were planning.

And for skills like jumps, misscount is better than accuracy as an indicator of how well you can play the map imo. I think accuracy is better for the other skillsets though.



Another option could maybe be to pull from the tournament scene. I'm not well versed in tournaments but they already have this thing going on with defined skillsets where the Nomod 1 map is always an aim map, the Nomod 2 map is always a stream map, etc. I feel like it would be useful to get help from people experienced with creating map pools for tournaments, because I feel like what they do is similar to this.
Oh, I'm grateful, that's really insightful! I was thinking about flow aim, finger control, maybe something else we could incorporate. The guys have like 20 levels for each game option CS AR HP, but I still plan to do it similar to o!mania, even though the gameplay is completely different. But I still want to make it amazing.
DM FOR MUTUAL
606 posts
Joined March 2021
DM FOR MUTUAL
Now that I think about it, I'm going back and saying it's better to go with "stream" as the term instead of "flow aim". I feel like "flow aim" could be things that are different from streams, which I'm thinking would not really be the right thing to put in dan levels.

Also you have to note that these categories of maps also can be wildly different within themselves. For example, with jumps you can high large spacing jumps, high bpm jumps and awkward jumps, and I think it would be weird if the dans were inconsistent with this, so you'd need to keep this in mind. I'm no tech expert but tech can also be extremely varied, maybe it'll be good to go with tech maps which are more generic/all-encompassing over tech maps that only do one specific thing etc.

I'm thinking maybe for jump maps you could stick with generic nomod consistency type maps like beatmapsets/1211809#osu/2527582, same thing with stream maps beatmapsets/461744#osu/1031991, for tech maybe longer aim/slider intensive maps like this beatmapsets/855677#osu/1787848 instead of anything too complicated, and idk what to do with other types of maps. I think these 3 feel like the three main map styles, and everything else including speed is a more minor/niche style of map.

Putting these examples together I think it would also be fun to go with more popular, well known maps instead of super niche graveyarded ones if you wanted to make a mania style dan course for osu standard.
Last edited by DM FOR MUTUAL , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,917 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
that other project uploaded some packs here beatmaps/packs?type=theme (scroll down to "osu!dan") but yeah it died before really doing anything meaningful with the dans or making much of a presence
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

clayton wrote:

that other project uploaded some packs here beatmaps/packs?type=theme (scroll down to "osu!dan") but yeah it died before really doing anything meaningful with the dans or making much of a presence
Of course, thank you very much. We've already discussed these bitmaps before, but they have quite an outdated representation. Our goal is to bring them up to a modern standard, at least starting from 2014.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT
Basically, I've decided to add: flow aim/jump, finger control, tech, stamina/speed. Perhaps in the future, two categories might be removed for the balance of all maps, or use the word "sometimes" instead of "/"
DM FOR MUTUAL
606 posts
Joined March 2021
DM FOR MUTUAL

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

Basically, I've decided to add: flow aim/jump, finger control, tech, stamina/speed. Perhaps in the future, two categories might be removed for the balance of all maps, or use the word "sometimes" instead of "/"
What's the thinking behind flow aim/jump being one category? Also I'd be interested in helping put this together if you wanted someone to help.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

DM FOR MUTUAL wrote:

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

Basically, I've decided to add: flow aim/jump, finger control, tech, stamina/speed. Perhaps in the future, two categories might be removed for the balance of all maps, or use the word "sometimes" instead of "/"
What's the thinking behind flow aim/jump being one category? Also I'd be interested in helping put this together if you wanted someone to help.
flow aim/jump will indicate a 50% ratio, meaning 50% jump and 50% flow aim, or sometimes. I’ve started putting together a collection of maps on my own. In Epsilon, it turned out to be stamina/speed: beatmapsets/1780135#osu/3645570. I'm thinking of adding beatmapsets/643448#osu/2624331, but I’m not sure which category it should go into:
Jump:
Finger Control:
Tech:
Speed/Stamina:

I would be glad if we could team up and do this together, as in the future there will still be time needed for cutting mp3 files, transferring maps through a text editor, and setting timings.
Last edited by VIRUS666_YT , edited 1 time in total.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT
Eng:I noticed that on the "Mameosu" server, there are dans not only for mania but also for o!taiko, o!ctb, and o!std. Specifically in o!std, they have it set up like this:



As you can see, they account for combo, misses, and accuracy (the maximum star rating for the 10th level is around 7-8 stars). They only have 3 maps instead of 4. If I'm not mistaken, all of them are alternates without any specific designations for streams, jumps, etc. So I thought that with SV2, it would indeed be difficult to play tech. I decided to exclude it. I don't plan to rely on misses or combo, so I'll keep accuracy as it was originally intended.

Now, I'm not sure whether to keep 4 maps as before or reduce it to a category of 3 maps (jumps, streams, tech) by removing finger control.
Last edited by VIRUS666_YT , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Now, I'm not sure whether to keep 4 maps as before or reduce it to a category of 3 maps (jumps, streams, tech) by removing finger control.
Maybe 4th category can be for generic note overlap/low ar/finger control/high cs type maps
Last edited by abraker , edited 2 times in total.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

abraker wrote:

Now, I'm not sure whether to keep 4 maps as before or reduce it to a category of 3 maps (jumps, streams, tech) by removing finger control.
Maybe 4th category can be for generic note overlap/low ar/finger control/high cs type maps
If only it were possible, but the thing is, as I mentioned earlier, changing AR or the size of notes isn't feasible. The most you can do is use a storyboard, but that's even more complicated work. It would be cool to play, but finger control is a better fit.
reffty_gag
322 posts
Joined July 2023
reffty_gag
LESGOOOO

anyway, pls name it other than reform, only "DAN" word is enough
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

abraker wrote:

Now, I'm not sure whether to keep 4 maps as before or reduce it to a category of 3 maps (jumps, streams, tech) by removing finger control.
Maybe 4th category can be for generic note overlap/low ar/finger control/high cs type maps
If only it were possible, but the thing is, as I mentioned earlier, changing AR or the size of notes isn't feasible. The most you can do is use a storyboard, but that's even more complicated work. It would be cool to play, but finger control is a better fit.
Ah that somehow did not occur to me.. then may be just generic note overlap/finger control
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

abraker wrote:

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

abraker wrote:

Now, I'm not sure whether to keep 4 maps as before or reduce it to a category of 3 maps (jumps, streams, tech) by removing finger control.
Maybe 4th category can be for generic note overlap/low ar/finger control/high cs type maps
If only it were possible, but the thing is, as I mentioned earlier, changing AR or the size of notes isn't feasible. The most you can do is use a storyboard, but that's even more complicated work. It would be cool to play, but finger control is a better fit.
Ah that somehow did not occur to me.. then may be just generic note overlap/finger control

I always wanted to add this 1.4 rating card to the very last level for stamina: beatmapsets/1929702#taiko/3985931
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

reffty_gag wrote:

LESGOOOO

anyway, pls name it other than reform, only "DAN" word is enough
how about it "Dan Evolution"?
McEndu
1,161 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

reffty_gag wrote:

LESGOOOO

anyway, pls name it other than reform, only "DAN" word is enough
how about it "Dan Evolution"?
I am thinking 「リズムの武道を極めろ！応援力測定！」 (Master the art of rhythm! Ouen Dan!)

need a Japanese to actually figure out the right wording though.

(pun semi-intentional)
Last edited by McEndu , edited 1 time in total.
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT

McEndu wrote:

VIRUS666_YT wrote:

reffty_gag wrote:

LESGOOOO

anyway, pls name it other than reform, only "DAN" word is enough
how about it "Dan Evolution"?
I am thinking 「リズムの武道を極めろ！応援力測定！」 (Master the art of rhythm! Ouen Dan!)

need a Japanese to actually figure out the right wording though.

(pun semi-intentional)
can you help me with this? (I'm just making a google sheet for the map sheet)
VIRUS666_YT
49 posts
Joined April 2021
Topic Starter
VIRUS666_YT
Here’s approximately how I envision the table (the "difficulty" tab will be removed):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gqv5qMq57S-nWI9RXn4ZERr8FbMAjOjG/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114485971392460276791&rtpof=true&sd=true
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