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[added] [Metadata] Removing Cut Ver exception when recreating other versions

posted
Total Posts
27

Should we keep this idea around or remove it?

Keep
61
81.33%
Remove
14
18.67%
Total votes: 75
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,940 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
Crossposting from https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/11122

From Ranking Criteria / Metadata / Standardisation

Songs that are shortened in ways that nearly match their official versions, and songs that are a full loop of a looping track will not be considered cut.

peppy wrote:

Any user edits should be explicitly mentioned regardless of "how close" they match.

So if anything, the other weird clause should be removed?
What do you think about this?

Full current wording:
Unofficial cut versions of songs must add a (Cut Ver.) marker at the end of the current title. If a length marker is already in the title of the track, (Cut Ver.) would replace it. This is to distinguish unofficial cuts of a song from full length versions. Songs that are shortened in ways that nearly match their official versions, and songs that are a full loop of a looping track will not be considered cut.
  1. Note: If an unofficial cut contains matching sections in the same order and is roughly the same length as an official TV size, short version, or game version, it will instead count as an official cut and use the appropriate marker. Covers and remixes do not count.

Colored Red is the part that would be affected by this opinion.

I'm making this a poll to gauge opinions, depending on the outcome, the metadata draft in community/forums/topics/1894663?n=1 will need major adjustments.

Please leave opinions if you have them!

To make this clearer, the most common thing affected by this would be recreating a (TV Size) version from a Full Version would require a different marker, because a different version of the song was edited over using the (TV Size).
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 1 time in total.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,676 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
Yeah uh, I think removing this clause is a horrible idea. A TV size remake done well, you can't tell the difference, that's the point.

By removing it and calling these remakes cut, you're just confusing players by calling it something differently, and implying it's different, when for all intents and purposes, it's supposed to be the same.

And making it harder for bns to check because you'd need fairly good audio equipment and trained hearing for that to tell if there's subtle mixing differences.

I think there's a good reason it was heavily requested and has remained in RC for over 6 years.

This would only encourage people to use crappy TV rip audio when the TV size doesn't have its own release
SaltyLucario
1,317 posts
Joined June 2015
SaltyLucario
basically what noffy said, the whole point of it is that it's not supposed to be an edit, it's supposed to be the same as original release that can't be used directly for some reasons (mainly bad audio quality because of no proper release)
Ryu Sei
2,885 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
Strongly disagree with this removal. A recreation that faithfully reproduces the intended target should count as the same version it's trying to recreate.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
189 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Got told to mirror what I said elsewhere.

Despite voting to remove it for the sake of simplicity, I believe there are better reasons to keep it than to remove the exception.

Those reasons being:
- A faithful remaster or recreation of an existing cut/audio/version isn't really a user's own creation.

- Attributing the replica to somebody other than the original authors (or implying it is not the "same") feels disingenous, and to some degree takes away credit from the original work.

I understand though that user edits — if meaningful enough — should be clearly shown one way or another. But some "common sense" should be used as to avoid minor, quality of life edits to be forced to use any given marker.
Monoseul
Elite Nominator
67 posts
Joined January 2020
Monoseul
+1 to basically everything everyone said here. There are no benefits to removing the clause, all it does is add unnecessary confusion to basically everyone involved (the players, mappers, and BNs) and labels the wrong credit and information involved with the song.
-Flashlight-
Beatmap Nominator
546 posts
Joined February 2017
-Flashlight-
completely agree with everyone else it should be kept.

at most i can see some clarification being added as to what is considered close enough (it is not clear what "nearly" means). however removing the rule implies that even an exact replica, where no difference can be noticed between the recreation and actual TV Size, should receive Cut Ver., which doesn't make any sense.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,940 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu

peppy wrote:

Can I just make a call of common sense here?

Any song, edited in ANY WAY from the original content, NEEDS A MARKER of some kind in the title saying it has been edited.

End of story. Adjust rules as required for this to happen.
I'm against this. It makes deciding which marker to use harder. Makes checking if people were sneaking "their own edits or whatever" in harder (and unreasonable for bns) and obscures which version the map is supposed to be

It ignores the old discussion that got us to the rule (https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/4181)

the community opinion should mean something.
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 1 time in total.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
189 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
The thing is that, while that's not impossible to do, it'd either mean making different markers for different ways to edit a track or give a generic (UserName edit) marker for any kind of edit done. So it's not technically impossible.

However, in both cases some important information is lost. Or as it would happen with the Cut ver. issue, we'd potentially be misleading users into thinking that's not the "original" version even when it's trying to closely ressemble it.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,940 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu

RandomeLoL wrote:

The thing is that, while that's not impossible to do, it'd either mean making different markers for different ways to edit a track or give a generic (UserName edit) marker for any kind of edit done. So it's not technically impossible.

However, in both cases some important information is lost. Or as it would happen with the Cut ver. issue, we'd potentially be misleading users into thinking that's not the "original" version even when it's trying to closely ressemble it.
Yeah, definitely doable, but there were reasons for not doing it

and we haven't been doing it for the better part of half a decade....

it just doesn't add much and isn't worth it in my opinion
Shii
374 posts
Joined October 2016
Shii
I'm not a huge fan of cuts or unofficial edits (extensions or otherwise), and I can kind of understand where peppy's coming from.

But as pretty much everyone's said, proper edits are indistinguishable from an official version, and should be treat as such. In particular, I share noff's concern that things such as TV Size songs that do not have a proper release will either end up being worse quality or (imo incorrectly) marked as Cut Ver.

Further, I can see this greatly inconveniencing mappers and BNs alike. There's a distinct possibility that *any* audio that is used in a map is edited (even if only to change the fade in/out a little) by a 3rd party. Does peppy expect people to be able to spot these as well and also mark them as edited?

I'd MUCH rather we just require that people include a remark in the map description, or something in tags, to indicate that its an edit matchign an official version.
Ryxliee
Beatmap Nominator
295 posts
Joined December 2019
Ryxliee
If we remove that, audio checking becomes hell
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
189 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
Yeah, definitely doable, but there were reasons for not doing it
Agree, which was kinda my (very vague) point. It can be done, but the negatives may be more than the positives.

Suffice to say, any change that's done shouldn't result in users needing to do an Internet scavenge hunt to be 100% sure whether their audio was edited from the original. And if so how, or who did it.

It just adds an unnecessary layer of complexity that was not really necessary before, as the new direction requires any modder, BN, or mapper to be on their tip toes on how they address the title of their songs.

And TBH that goes against the simplicity we're trying to look up for with the new changes. This just seems like an extra plaster on a problem we didn't use to have.
Last edited by RandomeLoL , edited 1 time in total.
Harbyter
Beatmap Nominator
1,368 posts
Joined October 2011
Harbyter
I understand peppy intention here, but i still think that keeping it is way better and simple.

Personally i already edit some higher quality full version audio and make them into TV size and the differences are nearly close to 0
Serizawa Haruki
1,664 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
I also think removing this clause would do more harm than good for reasons already stated by other people.

The only thing that may need to be considered are self-made cuts that are very similar to an official release but still noticeably different. For example, I remember making a GD for this mapset which uses a slight modification of the official TV Size version due to the extended section around 1:14 (see this mapset which uses the actual TV Size version for comparison). Both have been ranked with the (TV Size) marker due to the rather small difference, however in this case it's an intentional edit that does not have the purpose of faithfully and accurately recreating the official version, so I think this should've been labeled as (Cut Ver.) instead to indicate that it's an unofficial cut.

The current wording implies something different, and I'm not sure if that's intended or not but it's probably for this reason that the aforementioned example was treated like the official release in terms of metadata. If the goal is to only allow practically identical recreations, the wording would probably have to be adjusted to make this clear.
Krimek
Featured Artist
544 posts
Joined February 2013
Krimek
I agree with peppy that the proposal to remove "Cut Version" and solely focus on the "TV Size" version in the metadata regulations for songs from shows is a bad idea. One of the key reasons is that edited versions often do not represent the original composition. Official TV versions are typically produced differently and can significantly differ from edited versions. Additionally, labeling a cut version as "TV Size" implies an official status that it does not actually possess. In my view, the term "Cut Version" serves as a clear indicator that the piece has been modified. I also do believe it's important to maintain transparency regarding the source and alterations made to the music.

Moreover, the focus on TV shows in the discussion might overlook other genres where songs are shortened. This raises questions about consistency in terminology across different contexts. If we shorten a game OST to match in-game lengths, what marker should we use? Introducing a new term that explicitly denotes editing, like "Edited Version," could indeed be a viable option. However, implementing such a change may introduce its own set of challenges and potential confusion. Considering it, just sticking with Cut Version seems to be the best option to me.

I think that a marker like a cut version has no impact on player numbers and it won't reduce interest in the song/map. This being said, I think that we need a decision to reflect the diverse needs within the community, beyond just anime openings.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,940 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu

Krimek wrote:

I agree with peppy that the proposal to remove "Cut Version" and solely focus on the "TV Size" version in the metadata regulations for songs from shows is a bad idea. One of the key reasons is that edited versions often do not represent the original composition. Official TV versions are typically produced differently and can significantly differ from edited versions. Additionally, labeling a cut version as "TV Size" implies an official status that it does not actually possess. In my view, the term "Cut Version" serves as a clear indicator that the piece has been modified. I also do believe it's important to maintain transparency regarding the source and alterations made to the music.
If the version would differ significantly it would require another marker. If you're matching their official versions closely enough you should match the original metadata, that's the whole idea here

The example you list would probably not be reproducable in that way and would need a different marker
Krimek
Featured Artist
544 posts
Joined February 2013
Krimek
I understand the point, but I would still disagree. “Closely enough ” is not an original. We are not in a position to call products original if we have modified them independently. Of course we don't call it original mix or anything like that, but we imply a source where the song came from. If we are all fully aware that we have shortened a long version/original version to resemble a TV size, then we are also fully aware that it is not the source from which the song comes from. Of course, in theory, TV size just means that it is similar to the length of the TV version, but it is something that most people will not understand as such and will believe that this is the source, therefor implying it would be the original version.

I would also go so far as to say that many mappers don't have the expertise to create a perfect replica. Many TV versions have additional or modified content. Even implementing a fade out straight away is extremely unlikely. Mappers rely on their hearing and don't have access to the artists workflow or project file. Corrections are adjusted by further changes, such as changing the lyrics, etc. All of this distorts the result and should not be referred to as such. Even if it comes "as close as possible", factually speaking, it's not the TV version.

I still doubt that the rule change will bring any benefits. But that's all just my opinion and I don't want to discredit the intention or possible advantages. The points above are my doubts on the subject.
Serizawa Haruki
1,664 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

Krimek wrote:

I understand the point, but I would still disagree. “Closely enough ” is not an original. We are not in a position to call products original if we have modified them independently. Of course we don't call it original mix or anything like that, but we imply a source where the song came from. If we are all fully aware that we have shortened a long version/original version to resemble a TV size, then we are also fully aware that it is not the source from which the song comes from. Of course, in theory, TV size just means that it is similar to the length of the TV version, but it is something that most people will not understand as such and will believe that this is the source, therefor implying it would be the original version.

I would also go so far as to say that many mappers don't have the expertise to create a perfect replica. Many TV versions have additional or modified content. Even implementing a fade out straight away is extremely unlikely. Mappers rely on their hearing and don't have access to the artists workflow or project file. Corrections are adjusted by further changes, such as changing the lyrics, etc. All of this distorts the result and should not be referred to as such. Even if it comes "as close as possible", factually speaking, it's not the TV version.

I still doubt that the rule change will bring any benefits. But that's all just my opinion and I don't want to discredit the intention or possible advantages. The points above are my doubts on the subject.
Following this logic, changing the audio bitrate from 320 kbps to 192 kbps is also a self-made modification and therefore the audio file is no longer the original, but that doesn't mean it should warrant a change in the metadata.

If the TV size version has different mixing, instruments etc. and recreating it from the full version is not possible, then yes, a simple cut should not count as official TV size. But if there are no perceivable differences, I don't see why the original metadata can't be kept.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 1 time in total.
-Flashlight-
Beatmap Nominator
546 posts
Joined February 2017
-Flashlight-
if the edited version has no noticeable differences from the TV Size to a point where I could even say I got the official TV Size when it's actually edited, and nobody would even notice the difference, using Cut Ver. in that case would be misleading instead of TV Size.

in that sense, I can see "nearly" in the rule being changed to "exactly" so only edited versions that match 100% receive the TV Size marker
Last edited by -Flashlight- , edited 1 time in total.
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