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I'm trying to get into mapping, but have no clue what to do.

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21
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow
I've basically binged Pishifat's entire playlist 5 times about osu mapping. (some concepts I understood, some might aswell be a different language to me.)

But ultimately felt kind of useless for me. I've made 2 real maps (one of which I've uploaded).

alot of maps sound wrong; like they're following arbitrary sounds and emphasize weird instruments I don't agree with.

I know this is only my 2nd map, but I quite literally can't place down objects, I have 0 clue what to put down without it seeming like it follows nothing and is compeletely unstructured.

How do I learn to map?
Jason X
1,077 posts
Joined July 2013
Jason X
Mapping is a learn by doing process, so if you keep mapping you will get the hang of it.
Mapping alone isn't the way though, you will also need feedback, so you don't imprint the wrong ideas into your mind as being "good", as this can lead to a lot of frustration later on.

I suggest to have a look as maps with the same genre/similar BPM to what you are mapping, to get a rough idea of how it should look.

Also, don't be over ambitious, learn the basics, then learn how to do it properly, before "reaching for the stars" (ranking a map).

I'd also like to quote lesski here, since this advice is good for learning.

lewski wrote:

  1. "Just make 100 different patterns." You don't even need to make a whole map, you can just do isolated exercises like this and maybe even come up with cool stuff can use in the future. You'll still probably learn something. Depending on what works better for you, you can make the patterns on top of complete silence, or you can map tiny parts of actual songs.

For the "how to do it properly" part feedback is very important.

You can get feedback from Mappers/Modders, mostly found in the Modding Queues, you can use the in-game #modreqs channel or if you need a testplay ask in #mapping, #osu or the other mode related channels.
There I suggest you mention that you are a beginner mapper, so people will actually take more time to explain certain things more thoroughly.

Also, these threads might have some usefull advise: community/forums/topics/1879414?n=1 , community/forums/topics/1876893?n=1

The Community Mentorship might also be interessting to you: community/forums/topics/1892036


If you got any questions let me know :)
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow
I appreciate your detailed response Jason, I do tend to take other mapsets as reference for the songs I'm mapping, just that I sometimes get lost while doing so as in not understand why the mapper did something or what it represents.

I was fully aware I'd have to keep mapping and throwing away my earlier maps before I can reach any level of standard,
this is something I always keep in the back of my mind.

I have read both threads you sent and came to the conclusion that I just have to force myself to do anything at all even if it's complete ass.

I will be participating in the Communter Mentorship program aswell, as something like it was exactly what I was looking for.

I'm grateful for your advice and making me aware of the Mentorship program.

Have a great day <3
Jason X
1,077 posts
Joined July 2013
Jason X

Shadeow wrote:

not understand why the mapper did something or what it represents.
There is always the option to ask, sure for older maps that might be a bit difficult, but nonetheless the option exists.

For example "Why did you map the vocals here (timestamp), instead of going with the drums?"
or "Can I ask why you have choosen to map this section in this way, with the short sliders?".

Sure might be a bit different for me, since I primarely map Taiko, but the situation stays the same.
You can always ask if you don't understand something, and if the mapper is not available you can always try to discuss this in the ingame chat #mapping, or even the Mapping Discussion forum / Mapping Techniques sub-forum.

We don't expect you to learn everything without help, cause that would be either impossible or very hard to do.
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow
That is completely fair actually, never really thought to do that for some reason.

I think I will wait for the Mentorship Cycle to start (since it's in 3 days anyways) and see how it goes from there first.
YayaBunWa
34 posts
Joined June 2010
YayaBunWa
This might not matter much & is kinda a given, but I'll say it anyway:

First week or two was kinda just frustrating, but once I felt I was learning stuff from my mistakes, or from concluding stuff from my own thoughts or through comparison to others' work, I started to just enjoy trying to imagine maps to songs I love & the process of actively attempting to make something resembling my ideal version of that map. At the very least, it ain't such a grind once it starts to become fun. Pretty relaxing, actually.

Point is, it doesn't feel bad sucking & just working on it when it's still fun regardless. :3 After all, ain't no substitute for experience & effort. Good luck!
[-Omni-]
868 posts
Joined July 2021
[-Omni-]
to start mapping id study peoples maps, try differnet things and have fun :)
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow

YayaBunWa wrote:

This might not matter much & is kinda a given, but I'll say it anyway:

First week or two was kinda just frustrating, but once I felt I was learning stuff from my mistakes, or from concluding stuff from my own thoughts or through comparison to others' work, I started to just enjoy trying to imagine maps to songs I love & the process of actively attempting to make something resembling my ideal version of that map. At the very least, it ain't such a grind once it starts to become fun. Pretty relaxing, actually.

Point is, it doesn't feel bad sucking & just working on it when it's still fun regardless. :3 After all, ain't no substitute for experience & effort. Good luck!
it's very very frustrating right now yeah, I still feel like I rely too much on other mapsets.

I will just have to keep grinding until I can do basic structure and start vomitting my ideas onto the editor.

[-Omni-] wrote:

to start mapping id study peoples maps, try differnet things and have fun :)
I do study other ranked mapsets of songs, however I just completely disagagree with alot of object placements, I've talked with 2 mappers about it and I think it's ultimately the perspective of a long time player vs long time mapper.

I look at a Mazzerin map and I'm like "Hell yeah exactly, there SHOULD be a 250 deathstream right there", I then look at a 5* demetori song and I'm like "Why isn't there a bajilion triplets followed by spaced streams here?"

My ideas of intensity are completely skewed because I came from playing.

So in the end I just loop back to square 1, where I disagree, come out not really sure why exactly we have such drastic differences.

but ultimately in the end both ways of mapping are right, because of how much subjective things there are to mapping.
Last edited by Shadeow , edited 1 time in total.
Peni
150 posts
Joined July 2020
Peni

Shadeow wrote:

I do study other ranked mapsets of songs, however I just completely disagagree with alot of object placements, I've talked with 2 mappers about it and I think it's ultimately the perspective of a long time player vs long time mapper.

I look at a Mazzerin map and I'm like "Hell yeah exactly, there SHOULD be a 250 deathstream right there", I then look at a 5* demetori song and I'm like "Why isn't there a bajilion triplets followed by spaced streams here?"

My ideas of intensity are completely skewed because I came from playing.

So in the end I just loop back to square 1, where I disagree, come out not really sure why exactly we have such drastic differences.

but ultimately in the end both ways of mapping are right, because of how much subjective things there are to mapping.
disagreeing with another mapper's choices is completely normal and valid a lot of the times. when looking at ranked maps for inspiration, ideally you want to find maps and mappers you like/agree with.
that said, the issue with this whole player's vs mapper's perspective thing is that, while yes - technically there is no right or wrong way to map, players/new mappers are usually unable to bring up any valid points backing up their disagreement with more experienced mappers, which is why a lot of mappers just disregard players' opinions entirely.
lewski
1,253 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

Shadeow wrote:

I look at a Mazzerin map and I'm like "Hell yeah exactly, there SHOULD be a 250 deathstream right there", I then look at a 5* demetori song and I'm like "Why isn't there a bajilion triplets followed by spaced streams here?"

My ideas of intensity are completely skewed because I came from playing.
idk based on this it kinda just sounds like u want every song to be mapped to its highest "potential" in terms of difficulty, which is a perfectly valid viewpoint but I can see how it'd make it hard to be inspired by maps that don't do that

so honestly what u should do is look at maps that do exactly that, i.e. the maps u wished u were looking at when u thought "why isnt there a bajillion triplets followed by spaced streams here", u can probably find those by thinking about which maps u usually enjoy playing

u also have some easier maps in ur favourites so if that section isn't out of date u could also try looking at those to see if they click for u

there's an argument to be made in favour of learning with easier maps since simplicity makes it easier to learn one thing at a time, but there's no point in mapping if it isn't fun for you so on the other hand who cares about optimal practice or whatever
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow

Peni wrote:

Shadeow wrote:

I do study other ranked mapsets of songs, however I just completely disagagree with alot of object placements, I've talked with 2 mappers about it and I think it's ultimately the perspective of a long time player vs long time mapper.

I look at a Mazzerin map and I'm like "Hell yeah exactly, there SHOULD be a 250 deathstream right there", I then look at a 5* demetori song and I'm like "Why isn't there a bajilion triplets followed by spaced streams here?"

My ideas of intensity are completely skewed because I came from playing.

So in the end I just loop back to square 1, where I disagree, come out not really sure why exactly we have such drastic differences.

but ultimately in the end both ways of mapping are right, because of how much subjective things there are to mapping.
disagreeing with another mapper's choices is completely normal and valid a lot of the times. when looking at ranked maps for inspiration, ideally you want to find maps and mappers you like/agree with.
that said, the issue with this whole player's vs mapper's perspective thing is that, while yes - technically there is no right or wrong way to map, players/new mappers are usually unable to bring up any valid points backing up their disagreement with more experienced mappers, which is why a lot of mappers just disregard players' opinions entirely.
I would find mappers I like/agree with if I could actually map in the first place. Usually the songs/mappers map really complex songs (Into the void/Chrostasis/ Dragonforce maps) and those aren't things I should be mapping at such a beginner level.

"players/new mappers are usually unable to bring up any valid points backing up their disagreement with more experienced mappers"

I feel like experienced mappers are already too tainted by basic fundamentals ingrained into them, that makes them unable to effectively see the more amateurish and "freeform"(doesn't think about it) view of players. might just be me being retarded tho


lewski wrote:

Shadeow wrote:

I look at a Mazzerin map and I'm like "Hell yeah exactly, there SHOULD be a 250 deathstream right there", I then look at a 5* demetori song and I'm like "Why isn't there a bajilion triplets followed by spaced streams here?"

My ideas of intensity are completely skewed because I came from playing.
idk based on this it kinda just sounds like u want every song to be mapped to its highest "potential" in terms of difficulty, which is a perfectly valid viewpoint but I can see how it'd make it hard to be inspired by maps that don't do that

so honestly what u should do is look at maps that do exactly that, i.e. the maps u wished u were looking at when u thought "why isnt there a bajillion triplets followed by spaced streams here", u can probably find those by thinking about which maps u usually enjoy playing

u also have some easier maps in ur favourites so if that section isn't out of date u could also try looking at those to see if they click for u

there's an argument to be made in favour of learning with easier maps since simplicity makes it easier to learn one thing at a time, but there's no point in mapping if it isn't fun for you so on the other hand who cares about optimal practice or whatever
if I don't go the "optimal" route I won't get taken seriously, hence I won't get proper feedback and struggle with improvement as a mapper.

also yeah my favourites is outdated and I don't really do anythign with it.
Last edited by Shadeow , edited 1 time in total.
lewski
1,253 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

Shadeow wrote:

if I don't go the "optimal" route I won't get taken seriously
citation needed

in my experience ppl take u seriously if it just looks like u care about what ur doing
Peni
150 posts
Joined July 2020
Peni

Shadeow wrote:

Usually the songs/mappers map really complex songs (Into the void/Chrostasis/ Dragonforce maps) and those aren't things I should be mapping at such a beginner level.
but that's exactly what lewski's point was about.

lewski wrote:

there's an argument to be made in favour of learning with easier maps since simplicity makes it easier to learn one thing at a time, but there's no point in mapping if it isn't fun for you so on the other hand who cares about optimal practice or whatever
of course, mapping simple songs is way easier than mapping complex songs, and theoretically you could probably be more efficient with learning how to map, but if that's not what you enjoy doing it's just counterproductive because you're gonna lose motivation.
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow

lewski wrote:

Shadeow wrote:

if I don't go the "optimal" route I won't get taken seriously
citation needed

in my experience ppl take u seriously if it just looks like u care about what ur doing
This was just the energy I felt in the mapping discord and was afraid of not taken seriously is all. Could've just been me being anxious for no reason

Peni wrote:

Shadeow wrote:

Usually the songs/mappers map really complex songs (Into the void/Chrostasis/ Dragonforce maps) and those aren't things I should be mapping at such a beginner level.
but that's exactly what lewski's point was about.

lewski wrote:

there's an argument to be made in favour of learning with easier maps since simplicity makes it easier to learn one thing at a time, but there's no point in mapping if it isn't fun for you so on the other hand who cares about optimal practice or whatever
of course, mapping simple songs is way easier than mapping complex songs, and theoretically you could probably be more efficient with learning how to map, but if that's not what you enjoy doing it's just counterproductive because you're gonna lose motivation.
I'm sorry I have no clue what you meant by that first sentence.


I enjoy things by improving at them, so to me I don't mind mapping 5* all that much if I have to do that to get better.
and you ALWAYS have to suffer at a skill before being able to hopefully enjoy it (exception if you're doing it with the boys ofc). and I believe mapping is similair and requires a lot of dedication at the start to achieve anything.
Peni
150 posts
Joined July 2020
Peni

Shadeow wrote:

and you ALWAYS have to suffer at a skill before being able to hopefully enjoy it (exception if you're doing it with the boys ofc). and I believe mapping is similair and requires a lot of dedication at the start to achieve anything.
i wouldn't say you have to suffer. you can still enjoy it. seeing yourself improve over time can be very rewarding and motivating, even if you're not very good at it yet. and how much dedication mapping requires to achieve something purely depends on what you want to achieve. if you set too ambitious goals, it's gonna be more difficult.
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow

Peni wrote:

Shadeow wrote:

and you ALWAYS have to suffer at a skill before being able to hopefully enjoy it (exception if you're doing it with the boys ofc). and I believe mapping is similair and requires a lot of dedication at the start to achieve anything.
i wouldn't say you have to suffer. you can still enjoy it. seeing yourself improve over time can be very rewarding and motivating, even if you're not very good at it yet. and how much dedication mapping requires to achieve something purely depends on what you want to achieve. if you set too ambitious goals, it's gonna be more difficult.
Perhaps living in a 3rd world country just made me pessimistic, it's solely that I feel excessively frustrated and vastly lost even relative to when I had tried to start learning any other skill (Basketball, Osu itself, football[soccer] and Billiards)

For my long term goals: just having a ranked map.

for my short term: making something that doesn't look like the equivalent of vomit on the editor, and potentially mapping higher SR (from 5* to 6* maps).
YayaBunWa
34 posts
Joined June 2010
YayaBunWa
It's fair to be pragmatic but it's also good to listen to optimistic people when you struggle with that motivational 'essence' yourself. In any case, I find practising new skills almost-always to be frustrating to begin with but a lot more rewarding for being so when I start to get anywhere. Be it an instrument, exercise, studies, work-related stuff, language, etc, for some people there will always be a gnawing sensation of futility whenever trying to approach new skills - or even trying to polish old ones, sometimes. I found with mapping that it was easier to just dumb down my thoughts & expectations during the process, cos you can always rely on good ol' practise to fill the blanks in the end. Even banging a wall with your head will eventually lead to a dint in something other than your head, ahaha.

Just keep at it and you'll eventually find it rewarding and cathartic. Could take a while, or maybe it won't - realistically, since I work n stuff, it probs took a few months for me to truly start enjoying the process (and I still think my stuff is dogsh*t over 1 year later, ahaha).

Keep it up!
Last edited by YayaBunWa , edited 2 times in total.
Shadeow
23 posts
Joined October 2018
Topic Starter
Shadeow

YayaBunWa wrote:

It's fair to be pragmatic but it's also good to listen to optimistic people when you struggle with that motivational 'essence' yourself. In any case, I find practising new skills almost-always to be frustrating to begin with but a lot more rewarding for being so when I start to get anywhere. Be it an instrument, exercise, studies, work-related stuff, language, etc, for some people there will always be a gnawing sensation of futility whenever trying to approach new skills - or even trying to polish old ones, sometimes. I found with mapping that it was easier to just dumb down my thoughts & expectations during the process, cos you can always rely on good ol' practise to fill the blanks in the end. Even banging a wall with your head will eventually lead to a dint in something other than your head, ahaha.

Just keep at it and you'll eventually find it rewarding and cathartic. Could take a while, or maybe it won't - realistically, since I work n stuff, it probs took a few months for me to truly start enjoying the process (and I still think my stuff is dogsh*t over 1 year later, ahaha).

Keep it up!
Your reponse is very strengthening. I agree that fullfillment comes from hard achievements otherwise it'd have no value.
I have found that my standards were definitely too high for a beginner such as me, which helped me move on to new sections instead of refining the same 5 seconds for 4 hours.

Real life will always interrupt and bring up new responsibilities, that's also what gives leisurely activity even greater taste. For now though Mapping is something to take the edge off and not make me go insane.

I wish you the best of luck for mapping in the future and more importantly your career and life.
YayaBunWa
34 posts
Joined June 2010
YayaBunWa

Shadeow wrote:

Your reponse is very strengthening. I agree that fullfillment comes from hard achievements otherwise it'd have no value.
I have found that my standards were definitely too high for a beginner such as me, which helped me move on to new sections instead of refining the same 5 seconds for 4 hours.

Real life will always interrupt and bring up new responsibilities, that's also what gives leisurely activity even greater taste. For now though Mapping is something to take the edge off and not make me go insane.

I wish you the best of luck for mapping in the future and more importantly your career and life.
Well said, and thanks! All the best too~ Hope mapping comes to be more of a leisure than a chore sooner than later - I mean, it's definitely one of the most unique ways I've found to immerse yourself in your favourite music, and a cathartic way after a long day too.

All the best
Last edited by YayaBunWa , edited 1 time in total.
lewski
1,253 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

Shadeow wrote:

you ALWAYS have to suffer at a skill before being able to hopefully enjoy it (exception if you're doing it with the boys ofc)
could be true for you if you can't enjoy stuff you aren't good at but definitely not something you can generalise

improvement definitely tends to take some amount of blood sweat and tears but simple enjoyment of the process isn't locked behind a skill requirement

having friends with the same hobby helps both enjoyment and improvement massively though i agree with that part
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