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PP calculations not making sense

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52
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China
Hi, I'm not sure if anyone else ever had this experience or if it's just me, but recently I started noticing that even though sometimes I was doing good on an insane song, I wouldn't get much rank, if any at all. This felt extremely weird as I used to get hundreds of ranks from insanes, some of them even with me having a lower accuracy or combo (all of this is in ppv2).
So I decided to try an experiment. I picked out one of my maps that had an easy, normal, hard and insane difficulty. On easy, I put HR on and got an SS along with +6 rank. On normal, I put HR on and also got SS, but only giving me +2 rank. I SS'd the hard with no mods, and it gave me +1 rank. I FC'd the insane (with about 98.5% accuracy) and got no rank at all. Actually my rank rose a number but I'm assuming that is because someone passed me in that short amount of time.
So I don't really understand this. The new PP system is supposed to give rank based on difficulty now, so I seriously doubt it considers a HR easy SS as being harder than a HR normal SS, or a HR normal SS being harder than a hard SS.
I also have a few friends in the 4 digit rank range, some of them being more than 10k higher than me, and our plays (and best performances) tend to be generally the same (or very close) in terms of accuracy, score and difficulty.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

China wrote:

Hi, I'm not sure if anyone else ever had this experience or if it's just me, but recently I started noticing that even though sometimes I was doing good on an insane song, I wouldn't get much rank, if any at all. This felt extremely weird as I used to get hundreds of ranks from insanes, some of them even with me having a lower accuracy or combo (all of this is in ppv2).
So I decided to try an experiment. I picked out one of my maps that had an easy, normal, hard and insane difficulty. On easy, I put HR on and got an SS along with +6 rank. On normal, I put HR on and also got SS, but only giving me +2 rank. I SS'd the hard with no mods, and it gave me +1 rank. I FC'd the insane (with about 98.5% accuracy) and got no rank at all. Actually my rank rose a number but I'm assuming that is because someone passed me in that short amount of time.
So I don't really understand this. The new PP system is supposed to give rank based on difficulty now, so I seriously doubt it considers a HR easy SS as being harder than a HR normal SS, or a HR normal SS being harder than a hard SS.
I also have a few friends in the 4 digit rank range, some of them being more than 10k higher than me, and our plays (and best performances) tend to be generally the same (or very close) in terms of accuracy, score and difficulty.
If play A gives you more rank than play B, that doesn't imply play A gave you more points than play B (it depends on the points of each player in the rankings).

Example:
You are player #10,003, you have 1995 points.
Player #10,000 has 2000 points.
Player #9,999 has 2010 points.

You play a map, and get 6 points, and you become rank #10,000 (3 ranks up)
Then you play another map, get 8 points, but you didn't rank up.

Also, when you get better plays in your top performance list, good scores tend to give you less points to your total.
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China

Full Tablet wrote:

If play A gives you more rank than play B, that doesn't imply play A gave you more points than play B (it depends on the points of each player in the rankings).

Example:
You are player #10,003, you have 1995 points.
Player #10,000 has 2000 points.
Player #9,999 has 2010 points.

You play a map, and get 6 points, and you become rank #10,000 (3 ranks up)
Then you play another map, get 8 points, but you didn't rank up.

Also, when you get better plays in your top performance list, good scores tend to give you less points to your total.
I read what you said so I went to do another little experiment, this time looking at the amount of PP as well. I played an easy DT SS, +4 ranks and 1 PP. Then I played a normal DT SS (of the same song), no ranks and no PP. The only possible explanation I have for this is that I might have had around 1868.9 PP before, and the easy score bumped it to around 1869.2 PP, and the normal might have bumped it to around 1869.7 so it looks like the easy gave me more PP (I'm assuming that PP is calculated in decimals). But that would also have to mean that me and the 4 people I passed in ranking had PP numbers extremely close, while the next person had their PP number farther than all 5 of us combined. I also keep noticing that I seem to get more (or similar) rank by playing easy and normals with mods than I do from playing hards and insanes without mods, so all these factors combined would make my "possible explanation" very unlikely I think.
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
Do you already have scores on these maps you are 'experimenting' on prior to the test?
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China

Bauxe wrote:

Do you already have scores on these maps you are 'experimenting' on prior to the test?
I picked specific maps that were short in length, had an array of multiple difficulties, and ones that I never played before/never gotten a score on.
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
Then no idea.

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China

Bauxe wrote:

Then no idea.

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
Haha that's a good way to put it.
Yeah ultimately I do play for fun/to get better, I don't really obsess over rank or try to farm it or anything (no more farming since ppv2 :P). But it is a little difficult to see my improvement when I can't really depend on the numbers to give me accurate info. Of course this doesn't happen all the time, sometimes I play an insane and do get +10 or +20 rank (though I used to get +50 or +100 not too long ago) but sometimes I'll play an insane with a similar difficulty, score and accuracy and get absolutely nothing at all. It's not very stable, but then I realized playing easier diffs with mods was very stable cuz it always gave me similar amounts of PP and rank every time (around +4 rank). It's rare that these easier diffs with mods give me none at all, whereas it seems to happen all the time with the harder diffs, more often than not.
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China
Oh I thought I should also mention: About a month and a half ago, I (very stupidly) did something with my osu files on both computers (I play osu on a desktop and a laptop). On my desktop I unprofessionally altered the location of the files and on my laptop I messed something up in options. I reinstalled osu on the desktop and it worked fine since, but recently I've been playing on my laptop and those "experiments" I did were all on my laptop. After messing up that option on my laptop, osu had really bad problems and I couldn't even start it, plus a huge amount of other things were bad (major lag, no input recognized, audio/video desync, and a bunch of corrupted beatmaps). However I never reinstalled it, I just tried to fix it and since then it has worked pretty well, although some problems never went away (osu senses my tablet input only like 10% of the time, still some corrupted maps, and it lags like no tomorrow when processing videos and effects to the point when the video and audio even get desynced, and sometimes osu goes negative color) and these problems never existed before I messed that option up. Could it be because of my osu problems that I'm getting weird calculations? I once got #15 on a song (during the time my osu was messed up) and when my friends checked the in-game rankings, I wasn't even on the top 50 list on their screens even though on my screen it was showing me in #15. Then I went to the website rankings for the map and the web rankings were just as my friends described, I wasn't even on the list.
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
Calculations don't even happen on your computer. Your scores are sent, and then calculated on the osu! servers. So no.
China
18 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
China

Bauxe wrote:

Calculations don't even happen on your computer. Your scores are sent, and then calculated on the osu! servers. So no.
But if my osu was messed up, or the maps I play on slightly corrupt, wouldn't that affect the outcome of my scores in some way? If my osu/maps were corrupted, might the data sent to the osu servers be a little warped? Because I can find no explanation as to why the whole world's monitors except for mine show that I have no rank on that song that I got #15 in. My monitor clearly shows my score and what I did to get it, but apparently on osu's servers, the specific combination of numbers that makes up my score just does not exist.
ElykColdster
22 posts
Joined October 2013
ElykColdster
If your map is messed up then it wouldn't be ranked at all. I doubt that's the reason you're not getting rank for your insane scores. Chances are that your insane songs weren't difficult enough for the system to consider it a significant improvement to give you pp. As for your experiments, your conclusions seem valid since some songs only give you a fraction of pp so it's very likely that when you DT SS'd an easier song it gave you just enough of a fraction to get your next performance point (and extra ranks).

All in all, if you FC harder songs you will get more pp. Think of this as osu! telling you that you're already past this skill level and it wants to see you do better on harder songs before it rewards you again.
hehe
1,960 posts
Joined November 2012
hehe

Bauxe wrote:

Then no idea.

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
grinding pp helps with accuracy though.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

tastystew wrote:

Bauxe wrote:

Then no idea.

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
grinding pp helps with accuracy though.
Not necessarily and you can get better accuracy without needing to FC anything in the first place.
Icyteru
535 posts
Joined August 2011
Icyteru
I agree.
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas
There is something wrong, I played like 10 maps:

~7 Hard's+DT

- 1 Insane+DT

- 1 Lunatic

- 1xEasy-1xNormal(to check if there is someting wrong)+DT+HR

So... I lost 1 rank each for 1 of those maps. Few minutes later I randomly lost 1 rank even tho I didn't even play a ranked. 5 Minutes Later testet it agian with a normal, nothing happened(and btw. I got 0,00pp for all of those maps).

5 Minutes later played a Easy+DT+HR and got 200 ranks, then tried a Insane+DT again lost ranks~

+Yesterday I played a another+dt map, had 1495pp, tried to increase everything on the map and I did, I got a higher score, better accuracy(5-7% I think) and got a B instead of a C, but I lost 10pp for it~ 100% something wrong with this.


Edit: Only thing I learned is that I get moe ranks/pp for a Easy-Normal with Mods, then playing any hard-Insane with DT and increasing a score(overall) makes your rank and pp go down, logics -1.
Noobsicle
674 posts
Joined October 2013
Noobsicle
believe it or not, people surpassing your rank results in you losing your rank :o

the loss of pp on the other hand is a different story
AmaiHachimitsu
1,639 posts
Joined May 2011
AmaiHachimitsu
Don't look at ranking, look at your PP. There is a massive competition in rankings 5k+ and people just keep playing, getting good score whilst you are playing too. Also PP is rounded down and when players are tied at the same amount of PP, they often shuffle in the rankings.


@edit: also wtf I never cared about rank when I was like #279827238736423623423827764846, why would anyone care? The gap between the players' skills in rank 1k+ is a lot thinner than in top 50
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94

China wrote:

Hi, I'm not sure if anyone else ever had this experience or if it's just me, but recently I started noticing that even though sometimes I was doing good on an insane song, I wouldn't get much rank, if any at all. This felt extremely weird as I used to get hundreds of ranks from insanes, some of them even with me having a lower accuracy or combo (all of this is in ppv2).
So I decided to try an experiment. I picked out one of my maps that had an easy, normal, hard and insane difficulty. On easy, I put HR on and got an SS along with +6 rank. On normal, I put HR on and also got SS, but only giving me +2 rank. I SS'd the hard with no mods, and it gave me +1 rank. I FC'd the insane (with about 98.5% accuracy) and got no rank at all. Actually my rank rose a number but I'm assuming that is because someone passed me in that short amount of time.
So I don't really understand this. The new PP system is supposed to give rank based on difficulty now, so I seriously doubt it considers a HR easy SS as being harder than a HR normal SS, or a HR normal SS being harder than a hard SS.
I also have a few friends in the 4 digit rank range, some of them being more than 10k higher than me, and our plays (and best performances) tend to be generally the same (or very close) in terms of accuracy, score and difficulty.
The pp you get could also come from a previous score you did which didn't get counted previously, potentially because it was on a very new map. Don't assume, that the pp / rank you gain or lose are coming only from your own score and everything else is frozen. So another possibility would be, that various people have passed you while you did the normal + HR SS score, rendering your net gain lower.
Making assumptions based on rank gains from a play only works in the very high ranks where there is little fluctuation.

Judging from your best performance list I don't see any grave errors (for instance easys or normals) in the weighting.

Also I'm going to gracefully ignore Venumidas until he provides sensible data to work with instead of unfounded accusations and flame. :P
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas
1. http://puu.sh/7deT8

2. http://puu.sh/7dftQ

3. http://puu.sh/7dfDk

4. @Tom94, I only said what happened to me, I went into this thread to tell the OP that the same thing happened to me, I really start disliking you, shouldn't you be able to read? + There was 0 "flame" in my comment, this one might be a "flame" for you... atleast if you are a little kid.

Edit: Here is another one http://puu.sh/7cuTs , but my ranked jumped back because I didn't play for few hours, what is normal, not that important tho.

Edit2: Those are the Maps I played, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/142300 / http://osu.ppy.sh/s/75606 both ranked beatmaps(not qualified).
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama
I kind of wish that the wiki article can be done first so that people have something solid to review, rather than making guesses...
Noobsicle
674 posts
Joined October 2013
Noobsicle

Venumidas wrote:

1. http://puu.sh/7deT8

2. http://puu.sh/7dftQ

3. http://puu.sh/7dfDk

4. @Tom94, I only said what happened to me, I went into this thread to tell the OP that the same thing happened to me, I really start disliking you, shouldn't you be able to read? + There was 0 "flame" in my comment, this one might be a "flame" for you... atleast if you are a little kid.

Edit: Here is another one http://puu.sh/7cuTs , but my ranked jumped back because I didn't play for few hours, what is normal, not that important tho.

Edit2: Those are the Maps I played, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/142300 / http://osu.ppy.sh/s/75606 both ranked beatmaps(not qualified).
are you seriously making a big fuss out of one or two people surpassing you in the #20k ranks?

Bauxe wrote:

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
----------------------------------
e: just wondering, is it possible to gain less than 1pp for a song? e.g 0.5pp for improving accuracy on one song from 98% to 98.7% (just an example)
Last edited by Noobsicle , edited 2 times in total.
iderekmc
368 posts
Joined April 2013
iderekmc

tastystew wrote:

grinding pp helps with accuracy though.
not for me xd
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas

Noobsicle wrote:

are you seriously making a big fuss out of one or two people surpassing you in the #20k ranks?

Bauxe wrote:

But instead of worrying about your rank, just work on improving and it will increase over time. That is the whole idea of PPv2.
----------------------------------
e: just wondering, is it possible to gain less than 1pp for a song? e.g 0.5pp for improving accuracy on one song from 98% to 98.7% (just an example)
I just showed that I lost ranks/pp(Performance points) for beating Hard-Insane-Lunatic maps, what you wrote makes 0 sense, also I wrote that I got 0,00= Nothing for increasing everything on a map, instead I lost pp/ranks, also I got 0,00pp for doing the other maps I showed, actualy I think I even lost pp.~

Looks like you didn't read 99% of the stuff I wrote, I guess instead you just looked at my name, thought you are cool and have to be more intelligent then me, even to you just showed that you can't even read~



Also I think the thread can be closed~ Cause I flamed Tom and the other guy, now they are sad :'(

Edit: So hard I didn't even know I flamed them.

Edit2: Just to show you that there are some people not using their braines(no names)

http://puu.sh/7dsLk.png
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i dont see a single pp loss in any of your pictures, they make perfect sense.
Noobsicle
674 posts
Joined October 2013
Noobsicle

Venumidas wrote:

I just showed that I lost ranks/pp(Performance points) for beating Hard-Insane-Lunatic maps, what you wrote makes 0 sense, also I wrote that I got 0,00= Nothing for increasing everything on a map, instead I lost pp/ranks, also I got 0,00pp for doing the other maps I showed, actualy I think I even lost pp.~

Looks like you didn't read 99% of the stuff I wrote, I guess instead you just looked at my name, thought you are cool and have to be more intelligent then me, even to you just showed that you can't even read~



Also I think the thread can be closed~ Cause I flamed Tom and the other guy, now they are sad :'(

Edit: So hard I didn't even know I flamed them.
yes, clearly you lost pp as shown on the screenshots you've provided

when people pass your rank, you rank down. how is that hard to understand? how does that make zero sense? do you get it? when someone gets a better pp score than you, they rank up, you rank down. do you get it now? if you stay on the forums, worrying about your pp "loss", you're not gonna rank up. do you get it?

it doesn't matter if you use HD+DT+HR+FL on a piss easy song that (you've already SS'd) with a crappy accuracy, if your accuracy is worse than your previous best score, you won't gain shit, deal with it and move on

Venumidas wrote:

Edit2: Just to show you that there are some people not using their braines(no names)

http://puu.sh/7dsLk.png
"hey everyone instead of actually trying to improve yourself in the game and potentially gain pp and ranks through effort and practice, let's just spam the forums with posts about "losing" pp and ranks, hoping that one day we will be able to receive some sort of pp compensation through tom94 and peppy-sama"
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas

Noobsicle wrote:

yes, clearly you lost[b] pp[/b] as shown on the screenshots you've provided

when people pass your rank, you rank down. how is that hard to understand? how does that make zero sense? do you get it? when someone gets a better pp score than you, they rank up, you rank down. do you get it now? if you stay on the forums, worrying about your pp "loss", you're not gonna rank up. do you get it?

it doesn't matter if you use HD+DT+HR+FL on a piss easy song that (you've already SS'd) with a crappy accuracy, if your accuracy is worse than your previous best score, you won't gain shit, deal with it and move on
I never said that I 100% lost PP, + if you lose ranks, you don't lose PP, cause PP= Performance Points, showing your "performance" and if it's not changing, then the PP also wont change.

+ Here u go, a better version of the other puush Link: http://puu.sh/7dt7H.jpg

Edit: @Noobsicle, yeah let's not use the ""!GAMEPLAY & RANKING!"" if we have any problem with our "GAMEPLAY OR RANKINGS"~ logics -3+2

Edit2: @ Noobsicle, I never ever played those maps, also I said that I increased everything on a map and still lost 10pp+ alot of ranks, is it really that hard to understand for u? Or do you still don't read and just type?

Edit3: Here we got, the worst score you see in this was the one I had with 1495pp, with the only "B" one I lost 10pp and few hundred ranks. http://puu.sh/7aNb3

Edit4: @silmarilen, you can gain 0,01(or even 0,001pp not sure)pp also you can lose 0,01(0,001pp)pp.
Last edited by Venumidas , edited 1 time in total.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Lemme just ignore Venumidas and his childish rage, and address China's problem - or at least the part with the #15 score that doesn't show up on the online ranking boards.
My best guess is that you tied with a lot of scores. On tied scores, the oldest ones (those that were achieved the earliest) are shown at the top of the rankings when looking at the overall leaderboard. Ingame however, in the section that shows your online rank, it will display the highest rank that you tied next to your score. So it's entirely possible that everything from #15 to #50+ was tied (likely a spinnerless SS). If that's not the case, could you maybe give us the map where this happened and a screenshot of your score ingame?
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas
I explained everything, I showed everything they asked for, showed them proof that I'm right and still you think you are right, pretty stupid~ I'm not raging I just gave you everything you asked for, actualy this is the only thing that makes me the stupid one here, cause I try to explain something to stupid people and even tho I know they are not gonna listen to me showing everything they ask for, I still go on showing them everythign they ask for~

Still it won't get in my head why people have to do this, even tho the most people here are pretty much big a***oles, it'S still the best community~I think so atleast~ maybe u guys even wanna argue about that.....
Last edited by Venumidas , edited 1 time in total.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
You said you lost pp, your screenshots show you didn't.
How hard is it to accept that those scores were simply not good enough to earn pp?
Noobsicle
674 posts
Joined October 2013
Noobsicle
i don't understand what you're trying to show me with your LELELE HE MAD XD screenshot

Luna wrote:

How hard is it to accept that those scores were simply not good enough to earn pp?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94

Venumidas wrote:

Edit3: Here we got, the worst score you see in this was the one I had with 1495pp, with the only "B" one I lost 10pp and few hundred ranks. http://puu.sh/7aNb3
Can you show me how many misses you had on each of the 4 scores? Those are also considered, regardless of combo / accuracy. I know it's not a good solution, but there is no other way to stop ridiculously hard maps (for instance tag4 maps) from inflating as long as there is no per hitobject data available.
The reasons for only counting your best scores are of both technical and logical nature. We can't possibly store all scores ever made to always have the most pp-giving one available. Only storing the highest pp scores is also not a good idea, because the algorithm changes frequently and thus the stored scores would often become wrong. I can assure you, that we are doing everything we can to improve conditions, but - i hope you can understand - we can't work on the ranking system 24/7.

From the other screenshots you posted I don't see anything wrong. You didn't gain pp for a few plays, because they were not considered hard enough and meanwhile other people passed your rank.

Finally, what I'm calling flame are the offensive remarks you embed in almost every post of yours. Talking about the "logic -1", "if you are a kid", "do you even read" and so on things. I'm sure you'd get a lot friendlier responses, if you wouldn't make people feel offended. ;)
Venumidas
264 posts
Joined January 2013
Venumidas

Tom94 wrote:

Venumidas wrote:

Edit3: Here we got, the worst score you see in this was the one I had with 1495pp, with the only "B" one I lost 10pp and few hundred ranks. http://puu.sh/7aNb3
Can you show me how many misses you had on each of the 4 scores? Those are also considered, regardless of combo / accuracy. I know it's not a good solution, but there is no other way to stop ridiculously hard maps (for instance tag4 maps) from inflating as long as there is no per hitobject data available.
The reasons for only counting your best scores are of both technical and logical nature. We can't possibly store all scores ever made to always have the most pp-giving one available. Only storing the highest pp scores is also not a good idea, because the algorithm changes frequently and thus the stored scores would often become wrong. I can assure you, that we are doing everything we can to improve conditions, but - i hope you can understand - we can't work on the ranking system 24/7.

From the other screenshots you posted I don't see anything wrong. You didn't gain pp for a few plays, because they were not considered hard enough and meanwhile other people passed your rank.

Finally, what I'm calling flame are the offensive remarks you embed in almost every post of yours. Talking about the "logic -1", "if you are a kid", "do you even read" and so on things. I'm sure you'd get a lot friendlier responses, if you wouldn't make people feel offended. ;)
I'm not even saying the PP - System is shit(anymore), I just said that there could and prob. is/was something wrong at that moment, overall I think this system is extremly good.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet
@VenuThere may be an issue, but currently they're working on taiko and mania so you won't get results instantly. In the meantime, you could try improving your scores further and when they fix up the issues you're currently experiencing, just go S through all those maps you got B on. Easiest solution.

@China, it may be system delay if you have a bad network connection (like me). Sometimes if I retry instantly after finishing a map, the record doesn't have time to submit my first score before I finish it the second time, and only submits the second score. So when I finish a map with a result I like, I usually wait for my rank to show up on the song, and for my little square thingy with picture+pp+rank+level to flash, meaning that it has updated. Perhaps you have a similar issue.
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