For clarity, the following is used in the Oni rules:


With a few rewording adjustments, this proposal aims to add this to the Inner Oni guidelines as follows:


Unsure if the ending part should be reworded further, but note the changes from "must" -> "should" and "readability" -> "playability", since this seems more appropriate as the target audience is more experienced.

Reasons for this addition include:

1. Finishers with complex placements are still quite uncomfortable for a lot of players even as you go into the bottom of the 3 digit range (#999+).
2. They are a unique skillset that a lot of maps and songs do not provide.
3. Many mappers, especially without much playing experience, struggle to make their usage natural and comfortable.

Therefore, I think discouraging their use, whilst leaving the option open to people who can really make it work (as is now) is beneficial. I see a ton of new mappers not know about the points raised, so including it in the ranking criteria seems like a solid idea.

Feel free to propose other workarounds or wording suggestions too amongst the regular discussion!

is this kind of thing actually getting ranked unknowingly by new mappers such that it has to be disallowed by RC? I don't think I've ever seen an unintentional dD or mid-stream finisher before in a ranked map

Nao Tomori wrote:

is this kind of thing actually getting ranked unknowingly by new mappers such that it has to be disallowed by RC? I don't think I've ever seen an unintentional dD or mid-stream finisher before in a ranked map

People weren't ranking the Oni finishers anyway, but it was added for clarity's sake. Think this works fine for that purpose too.

Might be helpful to include when those weird finisher placements are acceptable (for example, low BPM, convert style, etc.)

I agree with everything else

works nicely as a pointer for less experienced mappers who are still figuring things out, so i don't see any harm in adding this

I'm neutral on this one in it's current form.

While I do think this advice is good to follow 99% of the time for most conventional maps, allow me to play devil's advocate for why we might not want to codify this yet:


This reason was cited for why we should implement it:

aceticke wrote:

Many mappers, especially without much playing experience, struggle to make their usage natural and comfortable.

Basically this is just stating the current situation regarding this - right now only more experienced mappers know how to use 1/4 monofinishers effectively and it usually does not work very well in the average map - true. But I think codifying this advice as a guideline actually makes this situation very self-perpetuating, and basically digs us deeper into this state of things of not seeing these interesting types of maps, by discouraging them altogether.

Nao Tomori wrote:

is this kind of thing actually getting ranked unknowingly by new mappers such that it has to be disallowed by RC? I don't think I've ever seen an unintentional dD or mid-stream finisher before in a ranked map

Also to Nao's point, I just don't see cases of these unknowingly coming up in ranked so I don't think there is a strong need to fix anything. In fact (speaking as a relatively newer BN), I pretty much never even see these for pending maps submitted to my queue (even when I was a non-BN). The addition of this guideline doesn't feel like something that makes my life any better as a mapper, modder, or BN.

Also I'd imagine a map which has 1/4 monofinishers usually will have other glaring issues that will probably make it extremely unlikely to reach ranked anyway. Either that or it's a blunder, in which case I don't know how much a guideline would help with that.


Last point: The way this sits alongside other guidelines just doesn't feel in-line with the others. Usually for other guidelines, I see exceptions for them being made when the mapper's back is against the wall, and there is no other choice besides breaking it to make a decent map. However, usage of 1/4 monofinishers feels more like something that is much more easily avoidable, and (from what I've seen) tends to only be broken very deliberately (looking at convert style maps especially), where the mapper is basically going out of their way to do so.


I think perhaps, some wording adjustments, perhaps like what Moly mentioned, could sway my opinion toward agreement. In fact, MV does already warn about these in Inners, but the wording there simply calls them "abnormal". I know I only talked about the cons of this guideline, but obviously there are also many pros to it (which have already been mentioned by others).

I agree, but hopefully in the future this won't lead to the mapping community seeking to destroy maps that want to use patterns like `xX` and `XX`.

I super agree that this will help beginner mappers stop mistakenly using `xX` moments. Such patterns from beginners don't push in the ranked section, but if we're talking about maps that don't aspire to ranked, but are made just for learning mapping (such as "my first map in the editor"), mapper almost always has to explain separately why you can't use `xX` patterns, which is tiring if there are a lot of such mappers

But as I said at the beginning, I hope that adding such guideline in the future won't lead to modders telling to abandon such ideas/solutions to mappers