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Relax minimum spinner requirements for Expert level difficulties

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Total Posts
12
apollodw
325 posts
Joined January 2017
Topic Starter
apollodw
Ranking criteria rules include:
Spinners must be long enough for Auto to achieve 1000 bonus score. Shorter spinners do not allow adequate spin time.
I think we should consider relaxing this rule to a "must be SSable by auto" for expert level difficulties to allow for more breathing room, and potentially move the 1000 bonus score clause to guidelines.

In the past this rule was implemented as a measure against ninja spinners, but I believe that maps with adequate care towards design could utilise such objects to provide interesting gameplay. These super short spinners are quite extreme however, and I feel like they should only be used in expert level difficulties.

At the forefront of what's currently rankable, one could take a look at Tsurupettan (Game Ver.) [Deppy's Secret Extra].
And to see what sort of gameplay is possible without this restriction, this Fatfan Kolek gimmick difficulty (video) could provide some insight (execution notwithstanding, but shows there's player interest in this)
AJT
551 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
I would agree if lag wouldn't force some players to not get a 300 on super-short spinners, as I'm generally a fan of spinners used in creative ways.

Also even if this were changed I feel like it should be a guideline (similarly to how CS8-10 falls outside of the CS guideline) as I don't think it would be appropriate for most maps and having people insert 1 random ninja spinner into a map that doesn't support it or is designed around it could lead to unnecessarily frustrating experiences.
Last edited by AJT , edited 2 times in total.
lewski
1,352 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski
I'm also a fan.

The lag issue sounds unfortunate, but I think adding this allowance could still be fine. It's somewhat comparable to how mania allows patterns that require a keyboard with n-key rollover in Expert diffs:

osu!mania ranking criteria > Overall > Rules wrote:

There must not be more than 6 notes pressed at any given moment in Insane or lower difficulties.
Granted, this is far more fundamental to the game at higher key counts than really short spinners would be. However, I think it'd be fairly reasonable to expect the spinners this proposal is targeting to only really show up in maps that are built around them, so the "paywall" would still only apply to a handful of maps. To support this, keeping the 1000 bonus limit around as a guideline sounds like the right play to me.

As for how to execute the change if the proposal is accepted, I think it might be best to move the current rule into the ENHI diff-specific sections and add the more lenient rule + guideline to the Expert section. The rule + guideline combo is a bit too convoluted for all of it to be in the Overall section like the mania example, I think.

My take:

PROPOSED osu! ranking criteria > Expert wrote:

Rules
  1. Spinners must be long enough for Auto to complete them. Shorter spinners do not allow adequate spin time.
...

Guidelines
  1. Spinners should be long enough for Auto to achieve 1000 bonus score. Shorter spinners may be impossible to complete for some players due to performance issues.
@AJT and anyone else who's knowledgeable on the subject: feedback on the non-bold part of the guideline would be greatly appreciated; I have no experience with the issue in question so I just wrote something that sounded right at face value
wafer
790 posts
Joined December 2016
wafer
i agree i think this sounds fun
Fatfan Kolek
592 posts
Joined January 2013
Fatfan Kolek
would be cool!! i always liked the thought of having ninja spinner diffs, other ones that come to mind are THIS IS SPARTAAA!!! and 8bit Princess

we should also fix fl spinner pp though, cause thats another problem with making them broken/unrankable right now lol
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze
+1

I always wished for this to be relaxed as the rule comes from a time when super short spinners were actually impossible to achieve a 300 on. Sometime in 2019, peppy changed spinner mechanics to fix this, making such spinners difficult but much more playable.

Since spinner leniency has become more forgiving, the rule should follow suit.
h3oCharles
1,503 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
one thing im worried about is by doing nothing +NF in a play can still hit spinners, even if it's a 50 or 100
Hollow Delta
793 posts
Joined March 2015
Hollow Delta
:thumbsUp:
quila
358 posts
Joined February 2016
quila

h3oCharles wrote:

one thing im worried about is by doing nothing +NF in a play can still hit spinners, even if it's a 50 or 100
you can already do this with nf + so :p
just tried it and got 114263 score with no inputs
score img
Ixcors
458 posts
Joined November 2017
Ixcors
hello! wanted to +1 bump this thread because i believe this can be a really nice addition to allow for more leeway with spinners. not just for spinner gimmick maps, but also i think a lot of regular maps can be made more interesting / express things better / provide a better playing experience with short spinners.

i've had 2 maps two maps that use "ninja" spinners to some extent to represent things in the song:

  1. this map uses 2 spinners, both to represent the reverse in the music. both are around the same length, but the first one 00:09:784 (1) - ends on a yellow tick 1/8 before the next circle and the other one 01:43:902 (1) - ends on a blue tick 1/4 before the next circle. sliders are not effective to represent this reverse here as they cannot dynamically change speed within the sliderbody as of the current RC.

    the first one is clearable by current RC rules as Auto will barely get 1000 bonus score, though the second one is not and is thus unrankable. both spinners are SSable. when this map was played by many players, many of them mentioned how it was much more likely to notelock on the first spinner than the second as the timing window was not lenient enough. so despite the first spinner being allowed by RC, the second spinner is more playable for players.
    ‌
  2. this map uses a single spinner at the very end 02:45:733 (1) - . it represents the high-pitched vocal here as it is the only vocal here with no instrumental backing it and it contrasted between the previous section and the next section which has the instruments come back in. a slider is not effective here as it would be blending in with the next section too much. while i could just not map this, adding a spinner here makes this part more unique and distinct since this is a very prominent part of the song (highest vocal pitch), so i believe it is acceptable.

    even if i move the spinner back to a 1/16 tick before the next slider, it is still unclearable by auto with 1000 bonus score. the spinner is very much SSable, and only requires 2 spins to complete. this is also an expert diff, and as such a short spinner like is justified to be challenging enough.

    this map is currently going for ranked as GD and the issue of this short spinner has been brought up already despite the fact i want to keep it for the reasons stated above.
both maps are not maps based off a spinner gimmick at all and would be completely regular maps even with the spinners removed. all 3 spinners are able to drop a 50 when not spun, however the SpunOut mod already exists and autocompleting spinners with SO hasn't been a problem since the mod's introduction. spinners are an integral part of the game and i hope they get the recognition they deserve in terms of both challenge and song expression! i really hope that something similar to lewski's proposal would be possible to implement.
McEndu
1,166 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu

lewski wrote:

Rules
  1. Spinners must be long enough for Auto to complete them. Shorter spinners do not allow adequate spin time.
...

Guidelines
  1. Spinners should be long enough for Auto to achieve 1000 bonus score. Shorter spinners may be impossible to complete for some players due to performance issues.
The first rule should probably not be difficulty specific. I am not sure if there is any language that requires Auto to be able to SS a map; if there are it is redundant. The guideline should also be in the general section imo.

I am fine with that difficulty specific rules for Insane and lower should enforce the 1000 bonus as a rule.
Last edited by McEndu , edited 1 time in total.
lewski
1,352 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

McEndu wrote:

The first rule should probably not be difficulty specific. I am not sure if there is any language that requires Auto to be able to SS a map; if there are it is redundant. The guideline should also be in the general section imo.
yea idk there isnt rly a perfect solution here i feel like

  1. only talk about spinner length in the diff specific bit -> the rules are broken up and something very general isn't in the general section which is weird
  2. put the completion rule in general instead of expert -> it's redundant for everything except expert because they already have a stricter rule anyway
  3. put the guideline in general instead of expert -> it's redundant for everything except expert because they have it as a rule anyway
...is it worth it to introduce diff-specific allowances that allow specific things that break general rules? if so, you could just add an allowance to expert that overrides the auto 1k rule, but idk if this is even any better than the other ways
Last edited by lewski , edited 1 time in total.
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