I think it's kinda of impossible to put only mania map sets counting for pp.
First of all, there are a lot of converted maps pretty hard to pass. And second, we still don't have many good mania mappers and so, we don't have many good maps to play. The ratio of Osu standart maps to Osu Mania maps is like 500/1. But yes, i agree that Mania maps should count the most.

And i think the same goes for key count. You can't judge the difficulty of a map by its key count.
It's true that the majority of easy diffs are with 4k but i've seen hard diffs with 4k too. Not saying is wrong too judge a diff by its key count but it can be inaccurate, and i think that we all want a new system that judges things the fairest way possible

ExPew wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

Except that we all know how star rating is BS.
Hello my name is Sweet Rain [Another] and I have a SR of 2.7, nice to meet you all !

that time broken SR

same with DJPOP's 1st mania map too [7K MX -2.76], but well old map is old that time SR so lol

Well look, SR is still broken :p.
Maps featuring slow/calm parts often don't have many notes at said parts, whereas the rest of the song has very high density. I'm thinking of this who deserves a higher SR than what it currently has.

-Blossom- wrote:

First of all, there are a lot of converted maps pretty hard to pass.

uh, no?
I completely suck at mania and at this point can pass all the autoconverts in existence. (Some are hard to play though, extreme fantasy etc)
If you're having trouble passing autoconverts then... -_-

There's already 80 ranked mania mapsets, with usually 3-4 diffs per one. That's already plenty, and with the increased amount of mania BATs the ranking speed of new mania charts has drastically gone up. Autoconverts are no longer needed.

Aqo wrote:

I completely suck at mania and at this point can pass all the autoconverts in existence. (Some are hard to play though, extreme fantasy etc)
If you're having trouble passing autoconverts then...

[/quote]


For you, passing a map envolves just finishing it, despite the full combo or acc? For me, passing a map is to have, for example, >98% of acc

Well, obviously a pass in osu isn't the same as a pass in LR2.
The point was that there is a clear level gap between the majority of autoconverts and actual mania maps.

Save for a few deathstream-focused autoconverts that due to some aligning of planets came out as chords instead of just stairs and thus are actually hard to play, most autconverts are just an accuracy grind that doesn't test your mania skill but rather your patience for retries.

I'm not against the -much harder- -very few- autoconverts giving *some* points but it should still be vastly inferior to actual mania charts. Players who are good enough to play those harder autoconverts well are also good enough to play actual mania charts so they can just get their points from there.

I didn't know that "passing" actually had another meaning than "finishing/surviving" a map. Huehue.
But that's off topic 'k.

80 ranked mapsets really is a few. But I'm pretty sure it will reflect the real level of mania players and force players to actually play mania, not some random autoconverts which aren't representative of what is encounterable in mania-spec maps.

It doesn't matter if they are hard or not, it's just they don't fit the concept of the game at all. Sliders can mean two drum hits in osu! - looks and sounds obnoxious in mania. Spinners start at random times after the objects. Only times you need any "finger independence" are return sliders. Also they look terrible.

If I made a rankable standard map, converted it to mania, copied it note by note and submitted as o!mania mapset, would it get ranked? No, not at all. Why should it be ranked then if a program did it.

Seperate rankings for everything could be good (converts, 7k 4k) but it would create much mess as well (6k doesn't really gets much love etc), so I don't know. Legacy ranking so old scores aren't forgotten and new pp counting mania custom only maybe?

Plus people who are addicted to competition/ranking would be forced to play mania-spec mapsets. That's a thing I would love to see haha.

The rating system can't be that harsh as there are not many non-convert maps compared to the amount of auto-converts. After introducing such performance ranking only those several maps (compared to whole number of other maps) will be played. In my opinion, better idea would be to, for example, give half of performance points for auto-converts (or other percentage of normal stake), so it won't disqualify normal maps. You may want it or not, but every map, converted or not, is a part of osu!mania...

PP should be counted when a player successfully play harder difficulty than playing easier difficulty.

About auto-convert ranked mixed maps on PP, yes, they shouldn't even counted in the 1st place because they aren't the representative of the mania maps. Those auto-converts should be used as a tool for a beginner player to learn about mania and not as a tool for farming PP.

Also, regarding to the keycounts, I think more keys means much harder as it should be counted as more keys = more PP.

Key mods should not give or should take any pp possible. The key mods should also be unranked if you don't want to get pp involved. Key mods change the whole song for the player by giving them less notes, and different placements of the notes, so it is completely unrelated to the song in it's normal state. Half time and easy are fine since they don't change the songs note placement or amount of notes.

ishimaru94 wrote:

Also, regarding to the keycounts, I think more keys means much harder as it should be counted as more keys = more PP.

Well, I think that is a bit uncertain. If you think skill in osu!mania is only managing to master "harder" songs (7K - as you state), such rating should be just as fine. But the 4K and 5K maps require a certain ability to max every song. Although it might be easier to hit 300's in 4K, there are still not many 1million-scores, aren't they. The precision level should also be taken into account when setting the rank up.

Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.

Here is my opinion regarding different keycounts. Even though I'm talking about RC in there, my idea of equality betweens Ks remains the same here, regarding the pp system.

Some of the converted maps can help for building accuracy skills. I got a lot more accurate on Mania by playing the auto-converts. I also got better at holds from them (the rhythm game I came from did not require holding long notes). But are they a real indication of skill? Not really. There are just so few auto-converts that have reasonable patterns, and most of the insanes just test your ability to do random chord switching at various bpms.

I don't think auto-converts should be eliminated completely from consideration, but they should certainly be weighted much less. The real problem is just the relatively small amount of Mania-specific maps, and as more maps get ranked, this won't be much of an issue anymore.

Riddle96 wrote:

Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.

Well then, should we have 4 separate rating systems? And, if someone plays 7K songs on 4K mod, should it be counted in 4K rating, or still in 7K one?

Announcement Thread.

Janioszek wrote:

Riddle96 wrote:

Well, 4k and 7k are like 2 different games in the same rank, i think we need a different ranking, or a way to balance it, imho.

Well then, should we have 4 separate rating systems? And, if someone plays 7K songs on 4K mod, should it be counted in 4K rating, or still in 7K one?

K mods wouldn't even work if we only take mania-spec mapsets into account.

PyaKura wrote:

K mods wouldn't even work if we only take mania-spec mapsets into account.

I know, but, in my opinion, there are still way too few mania-specified maps, and there is not much to create the rating from. In addition, there are hardly any famous mania-only map creators at the moment. Introducing a rating based only on these maps is just too standoffish... I don't think auto-converts are as good, but we need to take them into account at least in a small piece.

autoconvert - score
custom charts - pp
?

It's hard to create a really good ranking system, player skill is best judged by players imo. Nevertheless, there are some things you can do to create at least a decent ranking system.

Ideas for a decent ranking system:

If only osu!mania maps would count towards ranking, the system would already be 50x better than the previous one.
This isn't necessary though if you have a system where players get more pp for performing well on harder maps.

The difficulity here is determining how hard a map is. Density is one thing but it's not very accurate to determine difficulity by just that. There might be one specific point in the map where it is a lot harder than the rest, or there may be a lot of LN walls. LN walls of density 9 can be harder than normal maps of density 11 imo. It is imo almost impossible to make a system that judges difficulty perfectly, but this is definitely not necessary for a good ranking system. Just keep some key concepts in mind next to density (like bursts, LN, jacks, OD, HP etc) and you'll have a fairly good judgement system.

Another difficulity is determining how much more pp you give for clearing hard maps compared to easy maps. For me, this is hard to put a number on. But I think the number should be there with the idea in mind that advanced players should be encouraged to play harder maps. This will probably involve a lot of trial and error.

Other things:

Not everyone is obsessed with accuracy, some players like to hard clear so I don't think you should put too much emphasis on accuracy.
(ofcourse, 99.5% should be worth a lot more than 90%, but not like 100x more). This is also clearly not linear: 95% to 100% is much harder than 90% to 95%. But do not exaggerate on this else you will force players into becoming obsessed with accuracy. Accuracy is important yes, there's nothing wrong with that playstyle, but players shouldn't be forced into it.

DT and HR (only those two mods) should earn you more score and thus more pp imo.

The bonus score system on key modes is fine imo since they are only for autoconverts and if you implement a system where clearing hard maps would earn you more than easy maps, autconverts become worthless for more experienced players anyway. Although this does give a false sense to newer players that lower keymodes are easier so you might want to give it some tweaks.

I think it might be a good idea to only let a players top 100 (or so) performances count towards pp. This would make it unfarmable. The one and only way to increase pp should be to increase your actual player skill. Also a system like this would make determining how much more pp you give for clearing harder maps a much easier process since as long as you give even a little bit more pp for clearing harder maps, players will already be encouraged to play harder maps because they can't improve their pp gained from their 100 easy maps anymore. The number would then just represent how important you think accuracy is.

Also basically all of this is very well put:

Aqo wrote:

- average map density
- peak density for a 3~8 seconds length of the hardest part of the map
- amount of jacks and how long/fast jacks are they

those are the main 3 things that make mania charts hard to get a good result on; and they're often absent in most autoconverts, which leads those autoconverts to just be an acc-farm-fest.

there -ARE- some autoconverts that are hard and deserve rank imo, like extreme fantasy, dj amuro - F, etc

but either way, stuff like A ranks on much harder charts should be worth more than S ranks on very easy charts. The algorithm should be able to determine "difficulty of getting S" per chart based on the 3 above criteria and awards points accordingly, where a B rank gives roughly no points (because you can pretty much just mash fast enough and get B on most things), A rank (90-95) gives a fair amount of points depending on amount of bads and eventually S ranks giving much more but with a more linear addition from extra acc.

yes, SS is -much- harder than 97% on the same chart, but SS [Normal] shouldn't beat 95% [Hard] or SS [Hard] shouldn't beat 95% [Insane] and so on. (the difficulty names are just to illustrate difficulty progression. difficulty names are pretty much meaningless in mania, not hard to find something called [Easy] harder than most ranked [MX] charts lol)

October Scream wrote:

Key mods should not give or should take any pp possible. The key mods should also be unranked if you don't want to get pp involved. Key mods change the whole song for the player by giving them less notes, and different placements of the notes, so it is completely unrelated to the song in it's normal state. Half time and easy are fine since they don't change the songs note placement or amount of notes.

It doesn't really matter, since autoconverts make as much sense when they are 6k as when they are 8k. Some converted maps have 5keys because of unfathomable reasons, (Caravan Palace - Dragons) for example, even though osu! version is bazillion times harder than normals that are converted into 5k as well.

(+ you can't key-mod mania custom maps).

Decon082 wrote:

Some of the converted maps can help for building accuracy skills. I got a lot more accurate on Mania by playing the auto-converts. I also got better at holds from them (the rhythm game I came from did not require holding long notes). But are they a real indication of skill? Not really. There are just so few auto-converts that have reasonable patterns, and most of the insanes just test your ability to do random chord switching at various bpms.

I personally quite enjoy quite a few autoconverts, mostly because of the music though. And that's what their purpose should be, pure fun of playing a song you like (but there is no chart for it) or improving playing chords with one hand, because computer decided it's a good time to put them all on the one side of the playfield.

I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.

In a ranking system, it is important to have a method to determine the difficulty of each chart so weightings become appropriate. If the method is appropriate, then auto-converts should naturally give less pp since they lack patterns and other things that make exclusive charts harder.

Giving these maps special treatment could be just a patch solution if the weightings go wrong.

About how bad is the quality of the auto-converts, how well mapped a song is doesn't really tell much about the skill of the players that play it. Players are free to play good quality maps if they want.

Tear wrote:

Do anything but for the love of god do not count autoconverts in pp.
And imo different keymodes are not comparable - you can't say that some 4K player is better or worse than a 7K player. They should have separate rankings.

as tear said do not count autoconverts please

Full Tablet wrote:

I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.

I agree, at least to the moment there will be more mania!spec maps. As you said, it can be easily patched without any consequences.

Do not count autoconverts please ... gg

Full Tablet wrote:

I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.

In a ranking system, it is important to have a method to determine the difficulty of each chart so weightings become appropriate. If the method is appropriate, then auto-converts should naturally give less pp since they lack patterns and other things that make exclusive charts harder.

Giving these maps special treatment could be just a patch solution if the weightings go wrong.

About how bad is the quality of the auto-converts, how well mapped a song is doesn't really tell much about the skill of the players that play it. Players are free to play good quality maps if they want.

It's not about difficulty. They are too BAD to be ranked to the very core. You could as well make custom taiko difficulties rankable is osu! standard - distance snap, connect two objects into a slider every 4 notes, make stacks out of 1/4s and you have yourself amazing ranked osu! map.

Removing them from ranking woluldn't be a patch solution, but rather a really longterm one.

if they take autoconverts 80% of players would quit;
i suggest different rankings or decrease their farm value (but what is fun to some is boring to others while "it's not fair")

I still don't get how some people can think autoconverts are great for measuring skill. From what I can tell, it's just one-note-per-lane clickety clackety until you SS.

Besides, for a game that emphasizes high-quality ranked beatmaps, autoconverts are terrible and half the time the notes don't even make sense. Standard, Taiko, and CTB all have one object per timing section. Mania doesn't. So what makes circle maps so amazing that they can be converted to 7 lanes and still be of exceptional quality?

If you want an accurate ranking system based on skill, remove autoconverts.
If you don't want to risk losing a majority of your players, keep them.

Full Tablet wrote:

I don't see the point of eliminating auto-converts or giving them a special treatment.

Making them count towards pp is a special treatment, no matter how you look at it. I mean, they only served as a momentary solution for when o!m came out. At that time, there weren't any mania-spec maps. But now we have some, and look, I'm pretty sure that forcing players to play mania-spec maps in order to get pp will bring more attention towards the game-mode - that is, towards what it is supposed to be. Players will pay more attention to new mania-spec maps which get ranked more and more often these days, and, what I call the "real mania community", will grow and give birth to more mania players of course but also mappers, leading to a quick development of the game mode. So yeah, even though the map choice may be very little at first, things should go better rather quickly with loads of new mania maps.

I'll just repeat what others said before to give it more attention in case anybody missed it

the problem with autoconverts is that they're bad as maps
players should be encouraged as much as possible to play real mania maps and not automaps that barely if at all fit the song

that's the reason to either heavy nerf or remove automaps from ranking

lets face it: a lot of automaps are simply "hard" because they don't match the song well and you need to memorize when to release LNs on them to get more accuracy or memorize parts where the system randomly made a 1/4 jack inside a stream on 180+ bpm. it doesn't test your skill, it's just farming/lots of free time for retries. players shouldn't be forced into a chore of playing those unfun bad excuse for a map things to rank as well as others.

I think auto-converts shouldn't be counted. As people have already said, they're terrible compared to mania-spec maps. Either don't count them, or make them worth WAY less. There's not a whole bunch of mania-spec maps right now, but there's enough to get by now and a lot more will come soon. Auto-converts are a bad representation of actual mania maps. Some are good, but most are god-awful and don't match the music at all. They should be for fun when a song you like doesn't have a mania-spec song.

And accuracy shouldn't be a big part of calculating rank. It should be worth something, but not a ton.
Let's say there's two people. Player A gets 95%+ every time, but only plays easy/normal tracks and falls apart at anything harder. Player B gets around 75%-80% each time, but is playing insane songs. Player B is obviously better, but has lower accuracy. Give Player A a little bonus for having that accuracy, but they definitely don't deserve more than Player B.

As for different key modes, I have no idea. 4k definitely shouldn't be less than 7k just because it has less keys. People who think 7k is harder because it has more keys are wrong. They can both be extremely difficult. 4k can murder you if you don't have stamina and 7k will get you with patterns. Because of this, some 4k maps are harder than some 7k maps. Unless different keymodes are being split into different rankings (which I don't think should happen), we have to take this into consideration.

Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".

In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.

I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.

It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).

Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.

They are kinda bad though. I get what you're saying like you don't want to be forced to play maps that are too hard for you, and I agree. You should try some of the easier mania spec maps. Not only are they much more fun but they will also help you improve faster. The only problem is that atm we don't have much true beginner mania spec maps atm. Well, actually it's more that we just don't have many ranked mania spec maps at all.

I still see one problem in it. For example, I'm not really concerned about all these anime-based or nightcore maps, because I'm simply not into it. I prefer electronic music, rock music and something like that. And then, when I want to be ranked (because I do want), I'm forced to play maps I simply hate listening to, which often results in a worse performance.

I'm playing mostly for fun, with no urgent chase for a high ranking place, but from these 80 osumania maps, as someone has already said, there might be... 10 or so that are not based on asian themes. What then? Do I have to play 10 same maps over and over to go higher in score? Please take in account that not every player is a proffesional mania! player and won't play every song which is given, but still wants to be ranked.

to me to be of
more notes per second hardest
whether either 4k or 7k but if that consideration is more difficult to play 7k

zedrux1 wrote:

more notes per second hardest

That's debatable as you can change the sliding velocity...

MandyJS wrote:

Unfortunately, what's fun for many hardcore mania people may not be fun for everyone that loves mania. Yes, I love mania... and I love autoconverts. That doesn't make me a "pp farmer" and that doesn't make me "not a true mania fan". Frankly, I find it a little disheartening about how many so-called "real" mania players think that anyone who enjoys autoconverts are only farming "bad maps" for pp and should just "get on the bandwagon and play "real" maps instead".

In reality, I know I'm not as pro as the top players... and I know that the mania specific maps are much more challenging to play. But, I also don't expect to have the same pp as the top players and I understand that most autoconverts should be worth less, because they aren't at the same skill level as many mania specific maps.

I do, however, still want to participate in the fun of being ranked, without being forced to play the mania specific maps, which currently I don't find very enjoyable, because my brain can't keep up with the patterns. So long as the easier autoconverts are worth less pp than the more challenging mania specific maps, I don't see the problem with them factoring in to the overall ranking.

It's not like I'm not making an effort when playing the autoconverts - to me they are both fun and challenging, but to say that because all this time, effort, and real enjoyment were spent on "bad" maps that it's somehow worthless and not in the spirit of the game makes me sad. I don't find most autoconverts bad (yes, some of the old ones are badly timed, but I suspect the standard maps they were converted from were badly timed as well).

Anyway, take what you will from this - I just wanted to share some feelings from "the other side" of mania, because I feel I also have a valid view point, seeing as how much I love mania mode above all the others.

The experience you've got by playing autoconverts is not 100% wasted. It's more like you, just like I did, and pretty much everyone who didn't play any mania games till o!m did, just need a bit of time to get used to mania-spec maps. I don't know, I might sound like an elitist or something, but playing a game which is not meant to be played this way feels wrong in my eyes. I myself "wasted" 6 months of my playtime playing auticonverts, but I got to know the joy of mania-spec maps by myself. I was starting to feel like autoconverts were just plain boring and they featured all the same gameplay. It's a bit sad to say it this way, but people who got stuck into playing autoconverts are simply victims of the birth of a new game mode which hadn't any maps at first (and tbh they were not really promoted as well. Only those who kept an eye on the game mode knew of their existence until a few months ago).

By making newcomers play mania-spec maps, the mode will go towards the right direction. Letting them get lost in the autoconverts would be a big mistake from our side, who knows o!m for a good amount of time already.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, I didn't mean to harm anyone by voicing my opinion.

Also take note that I'm trying my hardest to change things now since we probably won't see another chance coming up until god knows when.

putting aside the issue of the state of mania
this is a discussion about competitive ranking
if you can't play mania maps as good as somebody else - then you don't deserve the same rank as them
as simple as that.
which is why autoconverts shouldn't weight as much. if you can play mania maps just as good, then you have no problem getting your points from actual mania maps. if all you can play are autoconvert and can't play mania maps, then you don't deserve the same rank to begin with. players shouldn't be forced to farm autoconverts to catch up to less good players who simply farm more

if for some reason you enjoy playing those autoconverts nobody stops you from playing them; but then play them just for that and not for a rank on a competitive ranking board

PyaKura wrote:

By making newcomers play mania-spec maps, the mode will go towards the right direction. Letting them get lost in the autoconverts would be a big mistake from our side, who knows o!m for a good amount of time already.

The issue is, there are literally no maps, which are available for begginers to play. Even those with one or one and a half star are seemingly as hard as four-star auto-converts. I don't want to sound offensive, but there is no worse way of encouraging new people to play osu!mania than slapping them in the face with way too difficult songs. And they won't have an indicator of their progress when they will play (therefore unranked) auto-converts so they won't know whether they can start playind mania!specs or not. The process of introducing new ranking system needs to be long, and the first part of it has to be making loads of new maps, especially easier ones, if you want osu!mania to go this way.

Just noticed: I realised that you speak like every mania!spec map was perfectly timed and super-accurate. I don't really know hat makes them look like that, but the process of choosing a mania!spec map to be ranked is similar to the case of standard maps, and, as you see, there are maps which are worse, and that's what bad auto-converts come from.