this post should be linked everytime someone says hr is underratedGhostFrog wrote:
bunch of text
tl;dr: if you can't SS a map without HR, don't expect it to give you anything but aim pp.
this post should be linked everytime someone says hr is underratedGhostFrog wrote:
bunch of text
tl;dr: if you can't SS a map without HR, don't expect it to give you anything but aim pp.
It explains why things are the way they are very well, but this assumption quoted is not true as far as I know (?? not sure, correct me if I'm wrong), and that would be part of the reason why people have a hard time getting pp from HR unless they can keep the number of 100s they're getting with it to a comparable amount (since in that case they're getting the aim pp, and they're getting more or at least not much less acc pp). If the quoted assumption is not true, that would mean lower accs on high ODs are in fact a bit undervalued.GhostFrog wrote:
assuming the system is making reasonable assumptions and using reasonable formulas, you should be getting the same amount of accuracy pp on OD10 as you would on OD8 unless you can SS the map on OD8.
j/w if/when it will happen, because it seems weird that some of my highest yield scores that also have abysmal acc havent changed at all yet 16 total pp did...Bassist Vinyl wrote:
question when will our top ranks change around a bit to reflect the new pp value?
There is a big difference between certain accuracy on OD9 and the same accuracy on OD7.Neroh wrote:
Not sure if this has been said already but, I feel like some ar9 maps just aren't giving enough PP. DT seems to be the only way to get good amounts recently.
For example, this map on eXtra, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/231917?m=0 got me 217pp, which is a lot really.
Yet if I was to FC this map on FREEDOM (a lot harder) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/283705?m=0 with similar accuracy, I'd only get 220pp.
It leaves me with no option of rank gains for some of these maps even though they take a lot of skill to full combo.
I have no idea how much work goes into making the PP system work, but I'm grateful for what you have done. Sorry if I'm asking the impossible haha ^^
Have a look at the star rating, it's 3.47. I took a look at the plays from near the bottom of your top performances and there's Mizutani Runa - Philosophyz, which has a star rating of 3.58. It was also a higher acc score than your tear rain and an fc and both the songs are od8. Star rating is a good indication of how much pp a map will give.Cinagro wrote:
Not nearly at a high level, but just dropping this here for anybody that could enlighten me on this a bit.
I nearly full combod https://osu.ppy.sh/b/351513?m=0 yesterday, playing me at around ~#400 for the song. I expected a few pp out of it, but I didn't get anything. Is this because the star difficulty/ppv2 calculated difficulty for the song is incredibly low compared to all my other "top ranks"? If so, what is factored into the star rating system?
I could give it an evaluation too. I've seen thousands of "less than a 1 minute" replays, which are given around 240-260+ pps. Ofc they are with DT mods. So here's the fact. It is really easy to farm pp with short 140-170 bpm maps. You put DT on them, and whoala 1 minute fun for a ton of pp and I guess the 2 or 3 minute ones are given the same amount of pp as I've seen :/xasuma wrote:
I am not sure how important the length of the maps is in the algorithm. But I am feeling length should be weighted slightly higher. (It shows consistency)
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
i dont know, if i compare maps of equal star diff but different lengths i get a different feeling. for example comparing this with this, the TV Sized map is just more difficult than any 1:30 "section" you could cut out of the longer one. In fact, if it weren't for the build-up on the last kiai + the kiai itself i would say its star diff was a bit too high.xasuma wrote:
I am not sure how important the length of the maps is in the algorithm. But I am feeling length should be weighted slightly higher. (It shows consistency)
Sometimes I feel that it doesn't matter much if the map is 1:30 minutes long, or 3 minutes long. (I am sure it does matter) Just that long songs are harder just because of the amount of time you need to stay focused at once.
Just a thought.
So basically, you think longer maps should be worth more pp? A lot of the top plays I see aren't even tv size though, there is 3+ minute songs in the mix. I think map length in relation to pp is fine as it is.higurush wrote:
I could give it an evaluation too. I've seen thousands of "less than a 1 minute" replays, which are given around 240-260+ pps. Ofc they are with DT mods. So here's the fact. It is really easy to farm pp with short 140-170 bpm maps. You put DT on them, and whoala 1 minute fun for a ton of pp and I guess the 2 or 3 minute ones are given the same amount of pp as I've seen :/
Maybe they should worth more in some cases.Rewben2 wrote:
So basically, you think longer maps should be worth more pp? A lot of the top plays I see aren't even tv size though, there is 3+ minute songs in the mix. I think map length in relation to pp is fine as it is.
I think longer maps are better for more consistent players and tv-size is more beneficial for people who spam retry maps and maybe aren't as consistent to keep up a good play for a longer time. Some people would be simply better at one style than the other, I think it's quite balanced.
copypasting the same map 3 times makes the star rating go up, it's just that the amount it rises is weightedhigurush wrote:
Let's say there is a TV size map+DT - it will be around 1 minute - and there's a longer version+DT - it will be around 3 minutes. Let's say the two maps contain the same elements (longer version = play tv size 3 times). The pp evaluator will say it will be the same difficulty, because everything is the same and will give the same amount of pp for both of them.
Then the "do the same as the crowd" method really is there.- [ U z z I ] - wrote:
There isn't a rank bonus anymore...
So you think it is the same as with Approach Rate? AR9=AR10 in star difficulty. (this AR stuff is okay though)xasuma wrote:
Well its just a matter of looking at most people's top play's length. I just think it's slightly underrated.
As someone said above, it would be better for people who are more consistent, that is exactly my point. Being consistent should earn you something, it's a skill not just a play style option.
Right? Lol
koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)higurush wrote:
What I overall meant with my comment is that playing long maps are not even worth struggling for. You're better off playing random TV size/short maps if you want pp.
Example:
Various Artists - Nightcore Mix Compilation [Party!] +DT (97.57%) >> 178pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is way easier..
Also since the ?aim? nerf update, it's a bit ridiculous for the differences in jump maps vs etc
Hatsune Miku - Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (99.56%) >> 206pp
Primastella - Koigokoro [Delis' Insane] +DT (97.89%) >> 203pp
Koigokoro is still easier and it's just a slight difference.
What's more I'm around #100 on Nightcore mix compilation and Homework Crisis, and on Koigokoro i'm like around #1000..
Where's the rank bonus? And as for the Homework Crisis, the "Jump" nerf was this harsh?
I feel fine with long jumps and high spacing maps as well (Remote Control HRHD, With A Dance Number+HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Talent Shredder0108 +HR (max AR/HP/OD unranked)/Saten unranked maps), etc, but I accept your reasons.silmarilen wrote:
koigokoro is not way easier, if it was way easier it would give way less pp. you think it is easier because you are better at the things the map requires of you (high bpm medium size jump patterns with a couple of burts streams)
homework crisis is ar9 compared to koigokoro ar9.6 thus it feels harder to read, while the map itself probably isnt much harder
koigokoro is also od9 (od7+dt) while homework crisis is only od7, the koigokoro score probably got close to the same amount of acc as the homework crisis score got.
Well there's a solution for that too. Limit the maximum amount of percentage bonus or constant bonus for the length of the maps. This way the 1 hour Within Temptation Marathon map won't end up as top pp sourcesilmarilen wrote:
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
It should be very little if it is boosted. I am not asking for anything dramatic. Probably something most people won't notice much. But enough for it to matter to those who do play longer songs. I am sure tom can handle the logistics of it and make it work. As long as he wishes to do so.silmarilen wrote:
i dont know about that map because i never played it, but i agree that longer maps are underrated compared to shorter ones.
the problem is how far you are willing to go with boosting them, what if it ends up the other way around? what if the bonus for length becomes so big that clearly easier maps will give more pp.
Well, if it exists, it's still not enough to make me play longer maps and struggle on them for better acc. Because it isn't worth the pain. Still getting more pp if I DT some random TVsize map. Time spent/pp rate is better.silmarilen wrote:
something like that already exists in the way that more notes means more acc pp
It has been discussed some pages ago. The example was the val0108 maps, especially the 260+ bpm ones. They don't have streams, but have extreme spacing, yet they are not even weighted correctly. For eg. if you SS the With a Dance Number, you won't even get 250pp, which is sad, because the map is around the difficulty of a HRHD Remote Control. Same with Scarlet Rose, Talent Shredder, No39, YuYuMetal, etc.iaceo wrote:
Hmm, let me start out by saying.. This might just be due to my personal playstyle but I dont believe "tricky spacing" is weighted enough right now..
me too i wonder are those separated note streams THAT overrrated?pielak wrote:
http://puu.sh/aaaEj.osz
why is this map 6.9 stars
i think this is the wrong thread to discuss thatxasuma wrote:
This is not necessarily a pp matter, but more of a balance thing. Which is sort of related to pp in the end.
Anywyas, imho , I believe that the drain for spinners should be re-done.
As of now, spinners will give a boost hp when the spinner is completed, and during the spinner itself, is common for your hp to drop (unless you spin extremely fast).
I think either the hp drain during spinners should be less.
or
The hp bonus you get when you complete a spinner should be distributed during the entirety of the spinner itself.
Why is this? Because of long spinners. Long spinners can be very hard to pass when the od is high enough. So hard in fact, that to me, is kind of silly.
Thoughts?
what? that's YOUR point not mine or the threads point loldennischan wrote:
I agree with bassist, and the main point is how longer maps can be rewarded, not how hp drain works during spinners.