this probs belongs somewhere else
feel free to ignore me, i have history of exaggerating things out of proportions

i have observed a very sharp increase in NAT-forced disquals after map got ranked because of objective issues (unrankables), what in the world is happening with QAs?! are BNs not final-double-triple checking maps (maybe even testplaying) before hitting the magic button? why aren't ppl reporting these things during qualified phase? do qualified map players not know the actual purpose of qualified state? that things can still be reported last "minute" before actually being ranked? how players can get introduced to modding without being very forceful about every single detail ever imaginable?

I'm starting to think that 1 week is too short of a time window for qualified, but i feel like this wouldn't fix it, cuz the time pressure is what makes ppl incentivize to actually push things forward

i have seen qualified inspectors being introduced, i guess i should give this concept some time, but this problem isn't taiko specific afaik. is there a publicly known timeline for that idea to escalate further?

sorry, I'm unhinged

this probably shouldn't be in the rc subforum

do u want BN to study for 10 years at osu university to become a doctor with 0 pay?

moved to mapping discussion since this is not an rc proposal

I think the recent spate of unranks is caused by two main reasons.

First - many of them are on lower diffs which nobody that knows how to play the game and identify problems plays in qualified. additionally even a lot of the ones on harder diffs are kind of like, huh I missed there that was a hard pattern, and no further thought goes into it. even things that can look extremely obvious in editor and gameplay get missed this way if you're just playing the map once cuz it's qualified and looked fun.

Second - I think a lot of emphasis on making sure maps are technically correctly mapped got lost because of the ridiculous focus on metadata and audio and other braindead shit that doesn't affect the map at all but causes the vast majority of DQs, so now BNs spend more mental energy ensuring that their metadata and audio has been verified by 5 independent sources and audited by Deloitte and the SEC but rely on MV for literally everything related to the map. So this results in maps with technical problems getting nominated more because the limited amount of focus BNs have is wasted on trivial garbage.

Imo, in mania side (my PoV) they either being too lenient or dont want feel investing too much on a map (like they only help around 80% or even lower, whilst mapper must give their whole 100% before sending to bn). Percentage here are varies & subjective to anyone ofc, but i have few thing that i want to point of.

1. Perfectionist will always conflict against leniency (which in this case, BN dont mind brushing off what would they mod based on mapper's answer then go on.)

On rare occassional case, there is a / some player does QA and gained positive feedback from others on a same timestamp that BNs may have brushed off (despite being nearly objective), then mapper is highly suggested to change that thing.

What i meant, either both parties (BNs/mappers) are either not perfectionist or being lenient to each others, just enough to slipped mistake inside their map.

2. Just because its game, anyone doesnt have to make 100% of it, despite they're playing / creating things on it.

Let's be real here, is there anyone have never thinking about this on their entire career (either BNs or mappers)? As for BNs, i get it they don't get paid for this volunteer job, therefore the weight should be on mapper more, BN is just for cleaning - edited a bit - finishing touch, then send to public for qualified/ranked.

As for mapper, too many variables like; expecting BNs to do all the job (after mapper thinks they already did 100%) / they dont want to do their own general check (issues regarding tag dq are quite often these days) due no time or unnecessary or forgot (as i said, too many variables & i don't want to be biased in malicious way) / they want to recheck but too late (what i meant here, mapper realizing some part are a bit wrong on their PoV & BNs said "nahh its fine, no need to dq it" or similar line. Though some BNs are ok with changes but they don't like the mappers doing that on qualified)

3. Aftermath / the cost after dq over something silly (mostly friends only or BNs that have very kind heart & leniency, or BNs that feel inferior/respecting to oldies)

Most BNs don't like those silly dq after getting them once, resulting to "not taking X maps due their behaviour so they won't do it again". I feel like communication here is lacking. Why straight nomination? I really respect those BNs who asked me to nom before they hit the button.

As a mapper, they should recheck all things first before sending to public (qualified/ranked) to reduce the mistake that leads BNs getting partial burden despite already being helpful (or some are just pressing button, not doxxing anyone).


My conclusion, its not the qualified time is too short. Its mapper's fault for not letting their map rest after BNs fully checked it.

There's my bloody honest rant, im not sugarcoating anything, just speaking based on my experience

I believe online tags are suffice to rectify the metadata issue. Even if the metadata was wrong slighly by letter/symbol like typo or extras (not capitalisation), I thought NATs can assign new online tags for these maps. It doesn't affect search in-game, but at least it helps people finding the map on web.

For patterns, well... Noch's post summarizes what I wanted to post.

Unfortunately, editing online tags is reserved for ranked maps only because, as you said, it doesn't change the tags in the .osu of each individual diff, so it makes 0 changes to searchability in the client, thus qualified maps get disqualified for tag change.

As for what Noch said, I really agree with mappers doing their own general check and trying not to leave all the work to the BN. It's easy for BNs to burn out and get demotivated from checking maps as carefully or at all when they have to fix metadata, tags, source new audio/re-encode bloated audio and determine new offset, find timing resets, and even something as simple as checking AImod or MV on the map all for the mapper cause they either don't know how or don't want to. It's also just frustrating to work with these same people as a BN cause you're basically just hand-holding the mapper to the point that they expect this sort of fixing from BNs and either obtain a sort of learned helplessness, or in rare, malicious cases, weaponized incompetence.

But fixing the issue above is more of a mapper education issue as many mappers aren't aware how to do all those things, or the handful of (seemingly complicated) tools BNs use to accomplish these checks. There's a high barrier to entry to try and fix these issues that some basic mapper education would solve, but either mappers don't have the time or the willingness to learn do the burden is on the nominators for the most part.

h3oCharles wrote:

i have observed a very sharp increase in NAT-forced disquals after map got ranked because of objective issues (unrankables), what in the world is happening with QAs?! are BNs not final-double-triple checking maps (maybe even testplaying) before hitting the magic button?

Assuming you are referring to this the fact that you think that an issue in which it was the first time where something was handled badly on both sides would mean that 1 week of a map being qualified is "too short" is ridiculous. Stuff can be overlooked *sometimes*, which is why the qualified system exists, before stuff hits ranked. Human errors can happen, whether it's a pattern mistake or if you didn't pay attention to one thing during modding.

h3oCharles wrote:

why aren't ppl reporting these things during qualified phase? do qualified map players not know the actual purpose of qualified state? that things can still be reported last "minute" before actually being ranked?

Because not many people look at maps in the qualified state.

And yes as you stated they recently announced a test phase named Qualified Inspectors in which their job is supposed to check for objective issues on a qualified map in order to prevent this. This is currently in trial and may become an all-mode thing too.

In short; no.

sansan days [fapu muzu] is the reason why i started this, but I've seen more offenders than just this. what worries me is ppl ridiculing this out of proportion (but hey, that's the toxic side of social media for ya)

the first incident that made me (and probs most of you reading this) curious about all of this is I'm humanity, where a stack flipped by HR was unhittable because of stack leniency beatmapsets/1945582/discussion/4025180/timeline#/3663417

you can go to eph's profile and reliably see "unranked at the request of the NAT" or similar basically being his entire modding history recently, and try to connect the dates. i have never seen modding blunders this severe, ever, to the point where NAT REALLY has to come in and do something (biased cuz i only started caring about modding 2 years ago or sth like that)

looking forward to the results of QI, it's definitely a step in the right direction