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Introducing the Trial BN system

posted
Total Posts
29
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
987 posts
Joined March 2019
Topic Starter
Hivie
Hi peeps, the NAT excited to announce a project that we’ve been working on for a while, the Trial BN system!!

(available only for the osu! game mode for now)

What's this?


Trial BN is a new tier that’s below probation, it's for users who’d normally be denied but we still see potential in them becoming a BN after some more polish. This position serves both as a learning experience for users and as a chance to prove themselves to the NAT.

Trial BNs get to nominate exactly 3 maps in a maximum period of 1 month, which will be evaluated as soon as either their 3 nominations are set, or when the 1 month period is over, whichever comes first.

Their nominations and modding quality will be judged extensively with subjective evaluation by more NATs for fairness. Their nominations also need to consist of a variety of mappers, genres, and styles.

If they pass the trial, they will be promoted to regular probation, where they'll have more freedom with their nominations!

During the trial period, users will be added to the probationary BN usergroup and be given the "Trial Nominator" user title.

Can I join?


During the next few months, all future applicants will have the chance to become a BN through this new system, so if you think you have the potential to be a nominator but aren’t quite there yet, apply anyways!

What about other game modes?


After observing and fine-tuning this new system across the upcoming months, if all goes well, we'll be formalizing this system across all game modes, and improve support with a new usergroup, infrastructure changes, etc...

If you have any questions, or want to discuss this topic, reply to this thread!

Apply for BN here: https://bn.mappersguild.com/bnapps
Dada
Beatmap Nominator
165 posts
Joined October 2016
Dada
GOOD LUCK
Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea
Since now we have Trial, Probation and Full BNs, let's say a Probation BN doesn't pass their evaluation, do they become Trial now instead of being removed?
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,683 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

Andrea wrote:

Since now we have Trial, Probation and Full BNs, let's say a Probation BN doesn't pass their evaluation, do they become Trial now instead of being removed?
No, they would not become Trial in that case.

Trial would be primarily replacing reduced cooldowns between applications: instead of continuing to mod as a regular user to apply again, you practice on the field, with real situations and nominations, and that effectively becomes part of your application.

Only incoming members that don't meet the current standards right off the bat can become Trial. Current full or probation Bns can not move into trial.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 1 time in total.
kanocchi
328 posts
Joined February 2013
kanocchi

Hivie wrote:

Trial BN is a new tier that’s below probation, it's for users who’d normally be denied but we still see potential in them becoming a BN after some more polish.
What's the criteria for this? I'm asking this because I recently applied, and got denied with my eval saying the folowing:

NAT wrote:

We believe you have good knowledge of checking maps, but we still think you need more patient to check maps thoroughly, hope you won't miss important issues in the next application.
I even got a cooldown reduction for it from 90 days to 60 (which was the same for one of the trial users).
Last edited by kanocchi , edited 1 time in total.
SuzumeAyase
Beatmap Nominator
363 posts
Joined March 2019
SuzumeAyase
Good luck everyone
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,683 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

kanocchi wrote:

Hivie wrote:

Trial BN is a new tier that’s below probation, it's for users who’d normally be denied but we still see potential in them becoming a BN after some more polish.
What's the criteria for this? I'm asking this because I recently applied, and got denied with my eval saying the folowing:

NAT wrote:

We believe you have good knowledge of checking maps, but we still think you need more patient to check maps thoroughly, hope you won't miss important issues in the next application.
I even got a cooldown reduction for it from 90 days to 60 (which was the same for one of the trial users).
Hello, unfortunately I don't see anything regarding you having a reduced cooldown for your most recent application, which we do keep logged in the BN site. For recent applicants that had reduced cooldowns, as in, they were still waiting for their reduced cooldown to finish, we went through removed their cooldowns and let each of them know so they can choose whether or not to apply for this opportunity before posting the announce.

Anyone else can re-apply normally and get either a standard 90d cooldown, trial bn, or probation bn status depending on their evaluation. In case of qualifying for trial, they can request to have a 60d cooldown and apply again instead, if that's what they prefer.
OneShotFox
371 posts
Joined August 2016
OneShotFox
Always great to see new accessibility to these sorts of opportunities
Basensorex
Beatmap Nominator
313 posts
Joined January 2018
Basensorex
question spam time:

1. how lenient will it be actually? as in, will only people who wouldve gotten reduced cds be accepted or will there also be room for people who wouldve gotten normal cd but are still noticeably better than most applicants?

2. after passing trial bn period, do you still go through probation? if so, is it any different from how probation currently is?

3. what will be the actual most important criteria being evaluated from trial bns? will it be quality of the maps? sheer ability to "bn check"? quality of the mods themselves? (this one kinda seems hard to judge since youd assumedly be picking good maps to push and not bn app tier maps)

4. will "strict probation" evals no longer exist / be replaced for applicants who were extremely close to getting rejected?
superstore
196 posts
Joined April 2020
superstore
nvm
Last edited by superstore , edited 2 times in total.
kanocchi
328 posts
Joined February 2013
kanocchi

Noffy wrote:

kanocchi wrote:

Hivie wrote:

Trial BN is a new tier that’s below probation, it's for users who’d normally be denied but we still see potential in them becoming a BN after some more polish.
What's the criteria for this? I'm asking this because I recently applied, and got denied with my eval saying the folowing:

NAT wrote:

We believe you have good knowledge of checking maps, but we still think you need more patient to check maps thoroughly, hope you won't miss important issues in the next application.
I even got a cooldown reduction for it from 90 days to 60 (which was the same for one of the trial users).
Hello, unfortunately I don't see anything regarding you having a reduced cooldown for your most recent application, which we do keep logged in the BN site. For recent applicants that had reduced cooldowns, as in, they were still waiting for their reduced cooldown to finish, we went through removed their cooldowns and let each of them know so they can choose whether or not to apply for this opportunity before posting the announce.

Anyone else can re-apply normally and get either a standard 90d cooldown, trial bn, or probation bn status depending on their evaluation. In case of qualifying for trial, they can request to have a 60d cooldown and apply again instead, if that's what they prefer.
I guess I was wrong with the cooldown reduction then (dates were very unclear imo). Still, this doesn't answer my question. I also got the same impression as Basensorex about this replacing cooldown reductions (which if that's the case, I really doubt it helps the problem at all).
Serizawa Haruki
1,680 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
This is definitely a step in the right direction, let's hope it works out succesfully.

One question though: What exactly do you mean by
Their nominations also need to consist of a variety of mappers, genres, and styles.
I understand picking 3 maps from the same mapper isn't good, but why do the song genre and mapping style matter? Also, how do you define style in this context, things like "aim/jump maps, speed maps, finger control maps, etc." or does it refer to the actual mapping style such as "simple, tech, alt, anti-flow, etc."?

Either way I feel like this might restrict trial BNs too much and make it difficult to find good maps to pick that fit these criteria. Considering this type of variety is neither required for BN applications nor actual BNs, it seems odd to demand it from trial BNs who are still gaining experience.
Jun Maeda
230 posts
Joined July 2016
Jun Maeda
I could become one.
Nachmark
199 posts
Joined July 2020
Nachmark
Really interesting
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,106 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
I think it's too difficult to only have 3 nominations but still have to have a variety of song types and difficulties
kimiezi
29 posts
Joined July 2021
kimiezi
oh wow people talking about map stuff
FuJu
osu! Alumni
176 posts
Joined September 2017
FuJu

Basensorex wrote:

question spam time:

1. how lenient will it be actually? as in, will only people who wouldve gotten reduced cds be accepted or will there also be room for people who wouldve gotten normal cd but are still noticeably better than most applicants?

2. after passing trial bn period, do you still go through probation? if so, is it any different from how probation currently is?

3. what will be the actual most important criteria being evaluated from trial bns? will it be quality of the maps? sheer ability to "bn check"? quality of the mods themselves? (this one kinda seems hard to judge since youd assumedly be picking good maps to push and not bn app tier maps)

4. will "strict probation" evals no longer exist / be replaced for applicants who were extremely close to getting rejected?
1. general rule of thumb for now will be that we are replacing reduced cooldown with the trial period. so we most likely won't accept anything below that level of performance unless there are special circumstances which i can't really think of rn.

2. yes you will go through probation as normal after the 1 month period. the only change we made to probation recently is that you need a minimum of 6 nominations within 1-2 months to be evaluated now.

3. we expect them to actually provide decent quality mods for the 3 sets and the maps also need to be varied in type. as in, if you just circlejerk 3 anime tv size sets with a few timeline mods you are out since this system is based on improvement for your actual bn modding. hard to perfectly answer this question for now since we are using this trial to calibrate our standards to also make it feel slightly less rng for the future. (hence the 5 instead of 3 evaluators)

4. heavily depends on the context, but they are probably not gonna fully disappear as long as we have enough trust in an applicant to manage a normal probation period.
Last edited by FuJu , edited 1 time in total.
FuJu
osu! Alumni
176 posts
Joined September 2017
FuJu

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

This is definitely a step in the right direction, let's hope it works out succesfully.

One question though: What exactly do you mean by
Their nominations also need to consist of a variety of mappers, genres, and styles.
I understand picking 3 maps from the same mapper isn't good, but why do the song genre and mapping style matter? Also, how do you define style in this context, things like "aim/jump maps, speed maps, finger control maps, etc." or does it refer to the actual mapping style such as "simple, tech, alt, anti-flow, etc."?

Either way I feel like this might restrict trial BNs too much and make it difficult to find good maps to pick that fit these criteria. Considering this type of variety is neither required for BN applications nor actual BNs, it seems odd to demand it from trial BNs who are still gaining experience.
Sadly restriction of freedom in a trial period is necessary in order for us to put less trust into applications. Additionally, I think its a pretty interesting idea to leave things a bit open ended so we can judge what trial bns actually understand under "a variety of mappers, genres, and styles." themselves.

If this ends up not working out at all we are definitely gonna finetune requirements/expectations a little bit though.
Last edited by FuJu , edited 1 time in total.
Dada
Beatmap Nominator
165 posts
Joined October 2016
Dada

Nao Tomori wrote:

I think it's too difficult to only have 3 nominations but still have to have a variety of song types and difficulties
In a way only having 2 nominations might make that easier since you can just take two completely different maps. Should we limit them even further?

The number of noms isn't really the problem here - this is just, essentially, giving us another eval with 3 maps/mods to look at. The reason why it's a small number is to limit the damage if someone who's decidedly not ready does get in, so we can relax and loosen the requirements for people without worry.
niat0004
199 posts
Joined September 2017
niat0004
Wiki edit time.

I also assume Trial BNs' nominations have the same restrictions as Probationary BNs?
Last edited by niat0004 , edited 1 time in total.
Petal
Global Moderator
1,175 posts
Joined November 2015
Petal

niat0004 wrote:

I also assume Trial BNs' nominations have the same restrictions as Probationary BNs?
If you mean that the 2nd nomination of a map has to be from a Full Beatmap Nominator then yes, they have the same restrictions.
Serizawa Haruki
1,680 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

FuJu wrote:

Sadly restriction of freedom in a trial period is necessary in order for us to put less trust into applications. Additionally, I think its a pretty interesting idea to leave things a bit open ended so we can judge what trial bns actually understand under "a variety of mappers, genres, and styles." themselves.
I'm still confused, why is "restriction of freedom" necessary in this case? How does it affect the evaluation?
It might be interesting for evaluators to leave things open ended but for trial BNs it sounds like an additional stress factor if they have to worry about whether the maps they picked are diverse enough, I think it's important to clarify what the requirements are so that people know more or less what they're supposed to do.

Regarding this other reply:

FuJu wrote:

we expect them to actually provide decent quality mods for the 3 sets and the maps also need to be varied in type. as in, if you just circlejerk 3 anime tv size sets with a few timeline mods you are out since this system is based on improvement for your actual bn modding. hard to perfectly answer this question for now since we are using this trial to calibrate our standards to also make it feel slightly less rng for the future. (hence the 5 instead of 3 evaluators)
It makes sense that there should be some substantial mods for the evaluators to look at and not just 3 nominations without any suggestions, but again ambiguity should be avoided ideally. BN applications should include mods on at least one map that is not quite up to ranked standards, I'm assuming this is not the case for the trial period as the maps should be nominated after all? But do these mods have to meet all the other criteria that apply to BN apps (covering unrankable issues, all aspects of mapping, isolated suggestions and general suggestions/problems, etc.) or only those that were not fully met on the application?

Also, is it allowed to nominate a map during the trial that was modded beforehand?
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
lewski
1,309 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Also, is it allowed to nominate a map during the trial that was modded beforehand?
regardless of whether its allowed i think u would just be shooting urself in the foot if u did this

if ur a trial bn in the first place ur not quite good enough to be a normal one so the nat want to see u improve

intuitively any mod from before the trial is just gonna be the same stuff as whatever u put in ur app so its not gonna show any improvement
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,106 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
I agree that promulgating some basic guidelines about expectations beyond "nominate diverse maps" would be good. My logic is basically this - I, as well as most NATs, know what you mean when you say diverse maps. That's because I have 6 years of experience being a strong and qualified BN. However, literally by definition, the people who would fall into this category are significantly worse or less experienced than the average BN, so genuinely have no idea what kinds of unspoken rules about nominating "good" sets versus "bad" sets exist. You might think it should be obvious what's expected, but I would argue that that's just bias from being BN and NAT for an extended period. I propose that some general guidelines about what you're looking for in a successful trial period be published. Happy to give input if you'd like to hear it, though I doubt y'all need help codifying a few of the basic unspoken expectations (i.e. no 15 diff Sotarks sets, no wafer/aika/etc meme maps, no 3 diff anime TV sizes by 50+ ranked map mappers, etc).

The point is to set these guys up for success, so helping them along the way seems natural.
niat0004
199 posts
Joined September 2017
niat0004
Agree with Nao Tomori.

...wait, what happens to the BN mentoring program?
Last edited by niat0004 , edited 2 times in total.
-White
321 posts
Joined February 2020
-White

niat0004 wrote:

...wait, what happens to the BN mentoring program?
Nothing happens to it, it will come back when they're finished planning for it.
mouc
98 posts
Joined March 2019
mouc

Dada wrote:

Nao Tomori wrote:

I think it's too difficult to only have 3 nominations but still have to have a variety of song types and difficulties
In a way only having 2 nominations might make that easier since you can just take two completely different maps. Should we limit them even further?

The number of noms isn't really the problem here - this is just, essentially, giving us another eval with 3 maps/mods to look at. The reason why it's a small number is to limit the damage if someone who's decidedly not ready does get in, so we can relax and loosen the requirements for people without worry.
Can't you just veto the maps to completely avoid "the damage"?
And with that unrestrict the amount of maps they can nominate, but instead watch what they nominate. If its bad enough to veto, then strip them of the Trial BN. It should be enough of an incentive to make sure that they are quality but also doesnt punish if they decide to go beyond and be active, and nominate more than just 3 maps.
Vararaup
237 posts
Joined April 2016
Vararaup

mouc wrote:

Can't you just veto the maps to completely avoid "the damage"?
And with that unrestrict the amount of maps they can nominate, but instead watch what they nominate. If its bad enough to veto, then strip them of the Trial BN. It should be enough of an incentive to make sure that they are quality but also doesnt punish if they decide to go beyond and be active, and nominate more than just 3 maps.
What you described is a probabtion bn, it already works like that
DeletedUser_14357613
DeletedUser_14357613
200 kudosu damn i'm out
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