as the Catch the Beat Ranking Criteria states:

1. Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together.

This rule should be abolished, since first of all the spinner is now bananas, which is totally different from what it used to be (same fruits as the notes are) and the spinner fruits are now skinnable so this rule should be nuked out of the ranking criteria already.

Support

Makes more sense than it should.

Although now there is bananas instead of other fruits inside spinners, but I still dont suggest to use 1/4 or even 1/8 distance between spinners and notes, unless there is a valid reason to put them like this other than just want to abuse them.

So I suggest to put it on guideline instead.

Since the visibility with the last release of the template skin (aka implementation of bananas) has been increased, that rule is a bit outdated. Nevertheless, the 1/2 distance from spinner to note should be kept due to the fact that spinners are randomly generated, and players take different paths to get the max amount of fruits. That leads the ryuuta end in a random position of the horizontal line, which may make catching the first fruit after the spinner kinda tricky.

I'd rather rephrase that sentence to something like this:
Notes before a spinner can however be placed closer than 1/2, though that can be regulated with the modding process in case there's a lack of visibility (is there a need to create a guideline for that?).

It's probably better to keep it as a rule, but only updated with the current tools we have

Then we should just move it to guidelines, not rules.

Since it affects the visibility/readability of a beatmap, and therefore an important point to take into account, I see it relevant enough to keep it as a rule.

Then I guess we can settle that it should be a Rule Change, or rather reword it to that.

The spacing before a spinner should be changed to a guideline.

But the spacing after will be keep as a rule and especially in easier difficulties (cup/salad), with at least a 1/1 or 1/2 blank.
It's common for a beginner to randomly dash to catch the bananas so he needs some times to focus again on the 1st note after.

In all cases, a 1/4spacing (and 1/6,1/8...) will be avoid without a valid reason and be used only before the spinner and only in higher difficulties (rain/overdose).

I'd say that it should stay a rule for the fruits that come after a spinner, because it actually decreases the chance of catching more spinners than actually possible when the fruit is 1/4 or closer to it

since spinner get created based on where the fruits are before the spinner I'd say that it doesn't matter that much how close it is to the spinner in the beginning.
If you lead in the spinner with a 1/4 spinner before or what do I know ... an 1/8 repeat slider before it, it is totally ok in my opinion


Maybe it is silly though having 2 things in the ranking criteria about spinners though ...

Guideline for "1/2 before spinner"
Rule for "1/2 after spinner"

It should stay as a rule.
In my mods I often saw already how weird fruits look like if they are too close to a spinner, no matter if it has bananas or not. You often don't have the time to react to get highest score of the spinner when the distance is lower than 1/2, that especially counts for songs with a high BPM and AR.

Before a spinner should be a guideline, but after a spinner should stay as a rule.

As long as we dont use this function to intentionally "hide" notes inside spinners, it will be fine to me.

Let's try this as a guideline:

(For the notes after a spinner: p/2784101)

If people agree with that, we can move ahead and fix it. Maybe someone who can speak native English could help with the rephrasing =(

If they are readable and playable I don't see why not

So, I want to bring a specific case into the discution here: t/168050 @00:38:655 -

So, chained spinner + 1/4 object. Krah spectated me the first time I played this map, I catched them without any problem. For me they are readable at least for AR8 and AR9 (tested on a 200bpm AR9).

First thing it comes in mind is that is skin dependant, but when a case like this happends shouldn't the default skin be the reference ? And with the default skin, they are clearly readable as soon as you don't use a yellow colored combo.

Second thing is, how does it works in term of gameplay?
In the example I've linked eldnl used them as a slider body where the head and tail of the slider are the beats after and before the spinner. So it's basically a free slider where you don't loose accuarcy and get more score for taking more risks. I really like the idea as I like all patterns wich can be played in two different ways (one for novice and one for hardcore player). It's a plus in a sense that nobody is left in a corner unable to clear a map due to their skill.

Third thing is, where does it fits?
For me spinner's end are and will always be a beat so they have to fit in something in the song like all other beats (there's some special cases like song ending wich I seriously dislike when there's no end beat but it's something all game mode are used so it's not the subject). About spinner start the answer isn't really the same cause spinner start doesn't have hitsounds and the player is free to miss the first banana.
So with that in mind let's come back to eldnl's map. In a first time I though that spinner was ending on nothing, after a short discution with him I realized that all spinners except this one 00:40:099 (1) - ended with the voice. Only the begining of the spinners start on nothing wich is not that important if you have in mind what I said above.

So, does those spinner can replace every sliders in my map?
Of course not, like all patterns, the song needs to call for it. (About eldnl's map this part of the song is the more intense so I see no problems with them).

My conclusion is that I see here creativity, and not only a random experiment in the editor.

I can't find any issue with this kind of pattern so please discuss.

For a better visual reference:



It's in fact a show of creativity from the mapper. Let's see the pros and cons:

1. o: Thanks to the current differenciation of normal fruits and bananas of the default skin, the visibility isn't as low as expected and a player can distinguish what's a note and what's a banana.
2. o: Due to the lenght of the spinners and the relatively low BPM (135) a player can see perfectly at the same time at least a note and the next one.
3. x: Spinners are quite short (just 1/2). That doesn't allow the player to collect many bananas and therefore that doesn't give the possibility to distance his score from others'.
4. x: Related this time with the distance note-spinner and viceversa, the players' priority will be mostly catching the notes, since they're the ones that keep the combo. It'd be a pain to try to catch the max amount of fruits in a 1/2 spin plus trying to catch in time a note which is 1/4 away. That'd limit the movement of the player, which is contrary to the fact that spinners promote the freedom of movements.

Conclusion: I have a bittersweet sensation with the pattern... Let's see what other people can say about it.

Deif wrote:

For a better visual reference:



It's in fact a show of creativity from the mapper. Let's see the pros and cons:

1. o: Thanks to the current differenciation of normal fruits and bananas of the default skin, the visibility isn't as low as expected and a player can distinguish what's a note and what's a banana.
2. o: Due to the lenght of the spinners and the relatively low BPM (135) a player can see perfectly at the same time at least a note and the next one.
3. x: Spinners are quite short (just 1/2). That doesn't allow the player to collect many bananas and therefore that doesn't give the possibility to distance his score from others'.
4. x: Related this time with the distance note-spinner and viceversa, the players' priority will be mostly catching the notes, since they're the ones that keep the combo. It'd be a pain to try to catch the max amount of fruits in a 1/2 spin plus trying to catch in time a note which is 1/4 away. That'd limit the movement of the player, which is contrary to the fact that spinners promote the freedom of movements.

Conclusion: I have a bittersweet sensation with the pattern... Let's see what other people can say about it.

About your last point, getting the max spin shouldn't be that hard. I really want to see what other people thinks about this!

I have clearly state my point of view in eldnl's mapset, but let me bring it here

In my opinion, every patterns should have its own use in a mapset, even a single droplet is not placed randomly for sure.

But in this pattern, I cant really see the use of the spinners.

So my problem for this is not "Does it catchable, or readable". but "the reason why we want to introduce this pattern."

if you place spinner in this way, I cannot really treat it as " wants player to catch bananas", but other uses.

There is only 2 uses in my mind:
1. trolling notes in spinners: obviously it is not valid in this map
2. banana hitsounding : the banana hitsounding always form a low pitch to a high pitch, that will be useful for specific songs. But here, since the bananas is here not generate in a good manner, the performance for this could be very bad.

other than that, I cannot really see what is the point to add in a 1/4 note spinner pattern, better than just 1 spinner or several sliders in this map This is the main problem for me.

ZHSteven wrote:

I have clearly state my point of view in eldnl's mapset, but let me bring it here

In my opinion, every patterns should have its own use in a mapset, even a single droplet is not placed randomly for sure.

But in this pattern, I cant really see the use of the spinners.

So my problem for this is not "Does it catchable, or readable". but "the reason why we want to introduce this pattern."

if you place spinner in this way, I cannot really treat it as " wants player to catch bananas", but other uses.

There is only 2 uses in my mind:
1. trolling notes in spinners: obviously it is not valid in this map
2. banana hitsounding : the banana hitsounding always form a low pitch to a high pitch, that will be useful for specific songs. But here, since the bananas is here not generate in a good manner, the performance for this could be very bad.

other than that, I cannot really see what is the point to add in a 1/4 note spinner pattern, better than just 1 spinner or several sliders in this map This is the main problem for me.

A single spin or a few sliders are boring, I tried and it doesn't feel that good. I don't have time to explain my reasons again. Probably my last post here for a while, going to work see ya.

my opion about the chained spinner + 1/4 object

1.It must fit with the song for the hained spinner + 1/4 object ,also not all song are suitable with using the spinner + 1/4 cirlce

2. It's kinda unique rather than using slider or just circle

3. The spinner on that part act like slider but with free Velocity , so on that slider part, we can freely move rather than just following the tick

I have already express my opinion before in the thread but let's go for something more subjective since now we have an example.

About the map :
As this was already say it's clearly an interesting pattern here the idea is good but as Steven I'm worried about why did you use this kind of thing here ?...
Just a slider seems more logic here and even if it's less fun (do you have try to work with the sv to do something interesting ?)
I personally like how this sound but I want to know a valid reason for the use of this kind of pattern.


About the readability of this kind of pattern :
I was quite surprising the 1st I play this map because it's not usual in a ctb maps. To don't lie I have miss the 1st fruit but it's probably also due to my skin (cf : drafura's post about importance of the skin). I'm worry about the future of this kind of pattern since people will probably not use this properly.
Also I'm not sure if this can really be sightread by ALL players who can clear a rain because it's probably the real problem here.
For me this one can be acceptable (even with the previous point) since this is a "low" bpm this isn't really hard to read even if I have a HUGE doubt about a 1/4 note between two spinners.


Conclusion :
I don't dislike how this one sound and I'm not really opposed to accept in this cas but I'm not sure of the future if we accept this one.
People will probably tend to abuse of this and I don't really want to see that.

Krah wrote:

I have already express my opinion before in the thread but let's go for something more subjective since now we have an example.

About the map :
As this was already say it's clearly an interesting pattern here the idea is good but as Steven I'm worried about why did you use this kind of thing here ?...
Just a slider seems more logic here and even if it's less fun (do you have try to work with the sv to do something interesting ?)
I personally like how this sound but I want to know a valid reason for the use of this kind of pattern.


About the readability of this kind of pattern :
I was quite surprising the 1st I play this map because it's not usual in a ctb maps. To don't lie I have miss the 1st fruit but it's probably also due to my skin (cf : drafura's post about importance of the skin). I'm worry about the future of this kind of pattern since people will probably not use this properly.
Also I'm not sure if this can really be sightread by ALL players who can clear a rain because it's probably the real problem here.
For me this one can be acceptable (even with the previous point) since this is a "low" bpm this isn't really hard to read even if I have a HUGE doubt about a 1/4 note between two spinners.


Conclusion :
I don't dislike how this one sound and I'm not really opposed to accept in this cas but I'm not sure of the future if we accept this one.
People will probably tend to abuse of this and I don't really want to see that.

You have a good point there, about abusing this kind of pattern, I guess the modders and BATs will know when that happens!
Also, I don't know how to give you another reason about my pattern, for me, it fits and it's fun, isn't that the reason of a game?
(my cousin has internet on his phone thank god!)

Time to get rid of this already, after internal discussion:

Rule of the OP: Outdated, we'll knock it out.

New guideline:
New rule:
Anything else by now?

And here we go.

At last

Before bubbling this rule, please gather further feedback from the CtB Mapping community about the actual final proposal first.

Popped for now.

Deif wrote:

Time to get rid of this already, after internal discussion:

Rule of the OP: Outdated, we'll knock it out.

New guideline:

Try not to place notes too close before a spinner. A distance of 1/4 is acceptable, as long as the note distinguishes well from the spinner.

New rule:

Do not place a note closer than 1/2 after a spinner. Most of the time those notes are surprising for the player and ruin the gameplay of the end of your spinner. 1/4 could be acceptable in some cases where the bpm is really low.

Anything else by now?

I can agree with both
You could argue that for the 1/4 guideline you influence a pattern for the spins too much but that is just still a guideline (which it should be, since spinners are more or less random) and depends on per case basis

the rule on the other hand is perfect except that end ...
I don't think rules should have stuff like: "could be okay, but only sometimes"
that "could be" let's it more sound like a guideline ...

1/4 is acceptable in cases where the bpm is really low.

that is my suggestion. I used the "is" because if the bpm is low enough it would/could be the same as a regular 180bpm 1/2 in the time distance ~

Btw: what is low bpm? below 120 ? or below 100?

bomber34 wrote:

1/4 is acceptable in cases where the bpm is really low.

Yeah, sounds much better to me too. Actually the rule will still sounds a bit like a guideline, but in both cases it's not: The vertical spacing in CtB is dependant of the bpm, we use the timeline divisor metric to make the things easier for everyone (Using millisec is a viable option but way less userfriendly), so naturally if the bpm decrease the rule have to adapt, but it still the same rule.

Deif wrote:

Time to get rid of this already, after internal discussion:

Rule of the OP: Outdated, we'll knock it out.

New guideline:

Try not to place notes too close before a spinner. A distance of 1/4 is acceptable, as long as the note distinguishes well from the spinner.

New rule:

Do not place a note closer than 1/2 after a spinner. Most of the time those notes are surprising for the player and ruin the gameplay of the end of your spinner. 1/4 could be acceptable in some cases where the bpm is really low.

Anything else by now?

"surprising and ruins the gameplay" holy shit, do you really think that you have the absolute truth? it's always subjective, who said that something "surprising" is bad or wrong?, how do you know that it ruins the gameplay? this is completely out of logic. I don't want to be rude but this is probably the only way.

ps: el "you" es de "ustedes" para que no pienses que me refiero solo a ti.

Generally agreeing with the poor phrasing. It's too subjective. Keep it neutral, e.g.


If you get the idea.

It still makes no sense, if you use it in a correct way it is perfetly readable and FUN, take a look at that word, could be related to a game.

I suck at wording stuff properly, but those sentences gather properly what the rule wants. Go on with it!

Since no constructive objection arose (just some calls for labeling inersubjectively agreeable facts as "not objective and therefore lame")

Let's get this amended. *glares at Krah*

There is no real need to wait more ...
This was public for 2weeks. No one have something else to say that "it's shit" so here we go

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