Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[added] [Proposal - osu!catch] Avoid spinner traps

posted
Total Posts
29
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre
Hello! Here to come in with another suggestion to the guideline section of the catch ranking criteria. I would like to propose adding:

Guidelines:

Avoid spinner traps.

This would be accompanied by a hotlink to a new index page labeled "Spinner traps"

"Spinner traps are a term used in osu!catch for when the note after a spinner is not easily accessible naturally. This is caused by several ways:

- The note being on the outer edges of the playfield

- The note being an uncatchable distance from the last banana in the optimal spin path

- The notes being obfuscated by bananas"

Examples of spin traps below:


Usaha
Beatmap Nominator
511 posts
Joined May 2015
Usaha
+1
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Agree
autofanboy
Elite Mapper / osu!trivium Champion
1,591 posts
Joined January 2011
autofanboy
absolutely yea
Xinely
5,014 posts
Joined April 2012
Xinely
i do agree
yeeeter
17 posts
Joined September 2019
yeeeter
Hard agree
wwwww
Nomination Assessment Team
125 posts
Joined May 2016
wwwww
Just memorize 4head.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
play better

if we can keep converts in cwc because they have things that need to be memorized then fuck the players this is what the people want

in a perfect world agree tho :]
Blushing
Technical Support Team
3,034 posts
Joined February 2015
Blushing
+1 because so many of my plays have been ruined by spinner traps.
BlackBN
Beatmap Nominator
291 posts
Joined April 2015
BlackBN
yes please
Chatie
106 posts
Joined May 2015
Chatie
agree for cup-rain diffs, feel a bit apprehansive adding this for overdose+
Ryu Sei
2,900 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
I don't really play osu!catch but added guidelines would be great. Especially about this entire "spinner trap" thing.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Is this a frequent issue? If so, wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the minimum note-spinner distance rules rather than having one rule and one guideline for essentially the same thing?
kfc nugget
kfc nugget
+1
GIGACHAD
117 posts
Joined October 2017
GIGACHAD
so long as its a guideline im content w this addition to rc, as there have been maps that use spinners as an utility to read/play in a unique way
Mniam
221 posts
Joined February 2015
Mniam
Agree
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre

JBHyperion wrote:

Is this a frequent issue? If so, wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the minimum note-spinner distance rules rather than having one rule and one guideline for essentially the same thing?
The current minimum note-spinner distance rules are completely fine if the note is being used properly. The problems come when it isn't being used properly and you get spin traps. Increasing the minimum only hurts the people who are putting more thought into their note placements after spinners instead.

as for frequency, it was frequent enough recently for me to get to the point of deciding its time to make a rule instead of having it be an unspoken rule (most recent beatmapsets/1897425/discussion/3910621/timeline#/3477339)

edit: just found 2 more on beatmapsets/1464008/discussion/3944948/timeline
Last edited by Secre , edited 1 time in total.
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Topic Starter
Secre

GIGACHAD wrote:

so long as its a guideline im content w this addition to rc, as there have been maps that use spinners as an utility to read/play in a unique way
Yep would be a guideline, mostly because its also nearly impossible to objectively definitely what is a spin trap in some cases
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif

Chatie wrote:

agree for cup-rain diffs, feel a bit apprehansive adding this for overdose+
I believe it makes sense for the higher difficulties rather than the lower ones. The more experienced players would try to achieve the max possible spinner score, while beginners would just try to FC the map and won't be able to follow a proper spinner path.

I'm okay with having this added as a guideline, though the cases I've seen it applied/mentioned were on Platters and above. For lower difficulties, I'd rather suggest to place the object after a spinner relatively close to the middle of the screen, so there's enough reaction time for beginner players.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
I have to raise the question about what the definition for "optimal" path is. Is the optimal path to be determined for the spinner on its own, as if it was isolated from the map, or under the constraints of the surrounding objects?

If you isolate a spinner, there will be an absolute optimal path for said spinner. However, a player won't be able to follow this optimal path in all cases because the previous pattern might not necessarily land near that path. Just as the player can stray from this absolute optimal path due to constraints from the previous pattern, it can also be possible to stray from the absolute optimal path towards the end of the spinner, especially if the following object has been visible for time enough to process its position.

The truly objective spinner trap is where, while you're catching the last banana in that optimal path, you have no idea where the next object is, effectively creating an impossible pattern.

So yeah, while I agree that spinner traps should be avoided in general, we need some discussion on what this "optimal path" is so we can draw a line.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 1 time in total.
Mawers
14 posts
Joined May 2019
Mawers
I think this should only be applied to higher aproachrates
From 9 onwards for example
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
This is really something that is long overdue to be added, I think instead of defining an "optimal" path it should be more of a common sense rule, if the average player who actively tries to spin is missing, then it's best to change the following pattern instead of punishing the player for trying to get a better spin. If making a map that you want to rely on creating somewhat strict timing jumps from the final banana of spinners to the following notes, maybe but in your average ranked map we should try to avoid this.
Kyonkichi
64 posts
Joined December 2015
Kyonkichi
+1

- spinners are pointless if they're added simply for the purpose of distracting/killing combo
- spin traps not fitting the map/song should be modded out anyway, simply because flow issues
- dashing from last optimal spin banana to a note with strong sound would count as fitting imo
[ Sebastian ]
581 posts
Joined July 2021
[ Sebastian ]
YES

+1
Bunnrei
1,044 posts
Joined May 2011
Bunnrei

JBHyperion wrote:

Is this a frequent issue? If so, wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the minimum note-spinner distance rules rather than having one rule and one guideline for essentially the same thing?
it is kinda frequent just from my experience (i have no stats to back this up though), doesn't help that spinner randomization can just change when it feels like it lol

as a kind of? spin player i do agree with the guideline proposal

some notes:
1) feel like some people in this thread speak like mappers actively and intentionally put spin traps, which they (probably) don't lol (intentionality has no bearing on rules and guidelines but i do just wanna point that out)
2) i don't feel its fair to just focus on "optimal" spin paths, because people spin differently, and not everyone recognizes the "optimal" spin path for a spinner (even the most common intro spinner has like 2 reasonable paths to follow, both ending at opposite ends on the playfield) - point is, what's optimal to one may not seem so to another, and consequently, a spin trap to one is not to another

basically for #2: focusing on "optimal path(ing)" feels weirdly catered to top spinner players at the moment, and a guideline revolving around optimality might cause other players who follow what they *think* is the optimal path to miss due to the actual optimal path being different, and i think the punishment for these players is just less bonus score, not a miss

3) some spinners are just too wacky and an optimal path is impossible to define (already pointed out earlier), i think a better term would be "reasonable" path? but that might cause its own problems
Last edited by Bunnrei , edited 1 time in total.
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
213 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper
I agree that we should apply this. However, I don't think we should add this guideline for lower difficulties as they don't really add much value, as newer players will most likely not be able to find an optimal or sub-optimal slider path and end up focusing on the active objects anyway.

Next to this, I'm not that big of a fan of the current wording. I would go with the following to be more in line with how all other rules/guidelines are written.

Spinner Traps should not be used.

Secre wrote:

"Spinner traps are a term used in osu!catch for when the note after a spinner is not easily accessible naturally. This is caused by several ways:

- The note being on the outer edges of the playfield

- The note being an uncatchable distance from the last banana in the optimal spin path

- The notes being obfuscated by bananas"
The explanation you provide can probably be placed in the glossary sub-page for Banana? Otherwise, we can just create a new page in the Gameplay section.

JBHyperion wrote:

Is this a frequent issue? If so, wouldn't it be simpler to just increase the minimum note-spinner distance rules rather than having one rule and one guideline for essentially the same thing?
It mostly occurs on higher difficulties, so having it added on Platters and above, as Deif suggests, would make the most sense to me. Increasing the distance rule to a higher number is something I would rather avoid, as they are already quite strict.

Bunnrei wrote:

3) some spinners are just too wacky and an optimal path is impossible to define (already pointed out earlier), i think a better term would be "reasonable" path? but that might cause its own problems
I think adding more ambiguity when something falls under a "Spin trap" is probably not what we want. With Secre's initial wording we already cover this by calling it "not easily accessible naturally". Then it doesn't matter if it is the optimal path or a sub-optimal one.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/9233
h3oCharles
1,503 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
not a catch player myself, but when playing, isn't ignoring spinners the way to go for stuff like this?
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
213 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper

h3oCharles wrote:

not a catch player myself, but when playing, isn't ignoring spinners the way to go for stuff like this?
People mostly go for the optimal spin path to get the most score. So having those traps in your beatmap can be quite frustrating when not intentional.

That being said, the change has been merged so archiving.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 29