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[Proposal] Rewording TV Size Marker for Clarity on its Usage

posted
Total Posts
25

Should we reword this?

Yes
12
92.31%
No
1
7.69%
Total votes: 13
Polling ended
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten
Currently the Ruling regarding adding a TV Size marker encapsulates unintended usage.
Generally to my knowledge the Usage of this marker is Intended to be for songs that have been Edited in some regards to be used in a film, movie, or media. As general perception of the TV Size marker is that of a map lasting around one minute and thirty seconds.

If a song is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening/ending/insert song, use a (TV Size) marker at the end of the current title. If there is an existing TV size marker in the title, replace it with (TV Size).

Current wording does not reflect this and just says if the song is used in a form of media it needs to have the tag.

This causes situations like beatmapsets/1919446#taiko/3962346 to arise.

Considering we already use the source field if the media is from some other media, we should likely reword the current rule to clarify this. my suggested rewording would be along the lines of

If an edited version of a song is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening/ending/insert song, use a (TV Size) marker at the end of the current title. If there is an existing TV size marker in the title, replace it with (TV Size).

This wording allows us to catch things that may have been lengthened or shortened as well,
The only edge case i could see being affected by this is say if a show added a drum roll or something, but that's incredibly unlikely and could be handled on a case to case basis.
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 1 time in total.
Ryu Sei
2,897 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
Agree with this proposal. TV Size marker isn't just about shortening or extending the original version. It's about whether that song is edited and used on the TV programme or broadcasting services.

I barely remember any songs that are longer in anime but shorter in original, and this minor tweak should encapsulate the presence on mass media to its literal form.
Serizawa Haruki
1,678 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
I feel like "edited version" implies the song was changed in a way other than just cutting it. I think using "shortened version" is clearer because the length is what distinguishes a TV Size song from the full version in like 99.9% of cases. There was a similar discussion some time ago regarding an example where only the TV Size existed, in which case no marker would apply if this change were to be made, which seems fine because there's no need to distinguish different versions of the song if only one version exists. But the main reasons why that proposal was never implemented are that not using a TV Size marker on a song used in a TV series is somewhat misleading and that it could cause problems when the full version of a song is released after the TV Size version. I'm not sure if/how the example mentioned in the OP is different from that one 3 years ago (except for length) so perhaps it needs to be tackled in a different way to avoid the same concerns brought up in the other discussion.
Ryu Sei
2,897 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

But the main reasons why that proposal was never implemented are that not using a TV Size marker on a song used in a TV series is somewhat misleading and that it could cause problems when the full version of a song is released after the TV Size version.
It should be examined on case by case. Usually, this is the case where the song is originally written for the series, instead of using the existing one and license it/remix it. In that case, we can either:
  1. Enforce (TV Size) marker on all songs used in TV series.
  2. Allow the maps to not use (TV Size) marker, so long as the distributed OST isn't released yet.
But what happens if the distributed OST turns out to has exact same length and cut as the TV series? Should we remove the marker? Should we keep it? There's no other version than what is used on the TV, so what is the point of (TV Size) marker?

Do note that OP's proposal also implies that there are musical elements exclusive to the "TV Size" songs, not just a simple cut or loop of certain sections. OP's proposal makes more sense because "TV Size" is "the ones used in the TV".

Unrelated rambling but might be considered
I think if there is more exclusive TV Size elements than just a loop on certain section, the more appropiate marker would be (TV Version).

Maybe this one is better? (my added points are bolded)
If an edited version of a song is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening/ending/insert song, and removes/reuses the sections of the original song, use a (TV Size) marker at the end of the current title. If there is an existing TV size marker in the title, replace it with (TV Size).
If there is a section exclusive to that song version compared to the original version for the significant portion of the song, use a (TV Version) marker instead.

But we need to define the limitations of the "exclusive section"...
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I feel like "edited version" implies the song was changed in a way other than just cutting it. I think using "shortened version" is clearer because the length is what distinguishes a TV Size song from the full version in like 99.9% of cases. There was a similar discussion some time ago regarding an example where only the TV Size existed, in which case no marker would apply if this change were to be made, which seems fine because there's no need to distinguish different versions of the song if only one version exists. But the main reasons why that proposal was never implemented are that not using a TV Size marker on a song used in a TV series is somewhat misleading and that it could cause problems when the full version of a song is released after the TV Size version. I'm not sure if/how the example mentioned in the OP is different from that one 3 years ago (except for length) so perhaps it needs to be tackled in a different way to avoid the same concerns brought up in the other discussion.
the edited version is more to catch things like a song having potentially a loop or some sort of unforseen change thats not a shortening

as for why that proposal wasn't implemented for the TV Size releasing first, the vice versa issue is also there, for example if someone ill just use starset as an example because it came to mind released a song like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uySJpmfM7q4&t=40s monster and then arknights came along and say licensed it for their anime would we then say the previous meta is wrong because its now used in a tv show?, i think distinctly differentiating that its edited in someway clarifies this problem as if its the same song we don't need a marker as its jsut a song that so happened to be used in media.
lewski
1,307 posts
Joined September 2014
lewski
agree with the clarification cause with the current wording it would be seemingly reasonable to mark the full version of high free spirits as tv size because they put the full song in the last episode of the anime

however

Sparhten wrote:

This causes situations like beatmapsets/1919446#taiko/3962346 to arise.
this specific case is a bad example cause this version of the song is significantly different from the album version
GIGACHAD
117 posts
Joined October 2017
GIGACHAD
yea typically tv size is expected to be of short length.

having tv size as a marker, despite it being identical to the full ver, could lead to confusion for players who are used to seeing the marker being used for official cuts that are usually of 1:30, esp when they wanna dl smth short n sweet but get hit w a 3+ min map which they might not appreciate (i tend to play shorter maps more)

also the source field is alrdy present for where the source material comes from / got featured in, so its redundant to have tv size imo

+1 from me
AJT
539 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT

GIGACHAD wrote:

also the source field is alrdy present for where the source material comes from / got featured in, so its redundant to have tv size imo
will it not also be present for the full ver songs of tv intros

Sparhten wrote:

Currently the Ruling regarding adding a TV Size marker encapsulates unintended usage.
Generally to my knowledge the Usage of this marker is Intended to be for songs that have been Edited in some regards to be used in a film, movie, or media. As general perception of the TV Size marker is that of a map lasting around one minute and thirty seconds.
i don't really observe this to be the case, there are plenty of songs (1m30 and below) that only exist to be an intro and hence are there own full versions and haven't been "edited". it was generally understood (at least i thought) that TV Size in the osu! context was simply intended to mean "featured on TV". i don't know if this is clearer to me because I mainly map english shows compared to anime, though

furthermore there can easily be insert songs of lengths >1m30 that *have* been edited to be in a tv show (one example apparently being the one you linked in the OP, according to lewski)

needs more clarity methinks
Last edited by AJT , edited 4 times in total.
Ryu Sei
2,897 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

AJT wrote:

i don't really observe this to be the case, there are plenty of songs (1m30 and below) that only exist to be an intro and hence are there own full versions and haven't been "edited". it was generally understood (at least i thought) that TV Size in the osu! context was simply intended to mean "featured on TV". i don't know if this is clearer to me because I mainly map english shows compared to anime, though
If the song is only used as the show's intro, then it's more likely it's the original, written song. What does OP mean is to clarify these issues:
  1. Songs that are originally written for that show, but used verbatim. (i.e not cropped, extended or artificially modified)
  2. Songs that are originally written for the show, but appears concurrently as opening/ending theme and edited by any means compared to 'full version'.
For this context, 'edited' means artificially shortened, extended, or altered. I think the outcome should be like this:
  1. Any songs, licensed or original, for show's OP/ED must use (TV Size) marker if the length and structure fits that show's usage.
  2. Any songs originally written for that show and used verbatim must not use (TV Size) marker.
RandomeLoL
Nomination Assessment Team
214 posts
Joined September 2015
RandomeLoL
I understand OP's PoV and the arguments used for it. But not only do I side with AJT and its "lack of clarity" remark, but also the fact that no matter how this is worded, there are going to be ambiguous cases if not worded carefully.

Starting with the lack of clarity:
Are we sure that we know what this clause was for to begin with? I cannot use this as a reliable, objective stat. But from my experience, after speaking with many mappers, players, and users I saw no actual consensus on what this marker was for.

  1. Is it being used for any version of a given song that was featured on the media they were made for?
  2. Does this also include edited versions of tracks that weren't made for the media but were featured regardless?
  3. Does the track have to be featured AND modified from the unaltered version to be considered any different in the osu! ecosystem?
  4. Etc...
With this I just want to mention how it is important to first establish what it should be used for. With some fancy wording we can make that use be put into words! But the fact that this confusion is being brought up without first being resolved is an issue.

About the ambiguity of cases:
There's a case for everything. I've seen songs being unaltered from their original releases as tracks featured in media. No cuts, no edits, no nothing. This sort of ties with the lack of clarity aforementioned, but with the previous wording used or the one proposed it is unrealistic to expect that it will solve all cases.

Sparhten wrote:

Generally to my knowledge the Usage of this marker is Intended to be for songs that have been Edited in some regards to be used in a film, movie, or media.
The crux of this proposal relies on clarifying the usage of the marker. Sparhten mentioned one of the few other interpretations I've seen people giving to this marker. AJT is right, it needs to be clearer. And if it needs to be appended on the Glossary for clarity sake, I'd be all for it.

Buuuut with all said, assuming Sparhten is correct, the current clause would be misleading. I'd vouch for it to be changed ever so slightly!
h3oCharles
1,496 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
what about songs that have never been seen as longer versions? some that come to mind are songs from Phineas and Ferb
Last edited by h3oCharles , edited 1 time in total.
Ryu Sei
2,897 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei

h3oCharles wrote:

what about songs that have never been seen as longer versions? some that come to mind are songs from Phineas and Ferb
This proposal should clarify it and never append (TV Size) marker, since that version is the only version existed.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

AJT wrote:

GIGACHAD wrote:

also the source field is alrdy present for where the source material comes from / got featured in, so its redundant to have tv size imo
will it not also be present for the full ver songs of tv intros

Sparhten wrote:

Currently the Ruling regarding adding a TV Size marker encapsulates unintended usage.
Generally to my knowledge the Usage of this marker is Intended to be for songs that have been Edited in some regards to be used in a film, movie, or media. As general perception of the TV Size marker is that of a map lasting around one minute and thirty seconds.
i don't really observe this to be the case, there are plenty of songs (1m30 and below) that only exist to be an intro and hence are there own full versions and haven't been "edited". it was generally understood (at least i thought) that TV Size in the osu! context was simply intended to mean "featured on TV". i don't know if this is clearer to me because I mainly map english shows compared to anime, though

furthermore there can easily be insert songs of lengths >1m30 that *have* been edited to be in a tv show (one example apparently being the one you linked in the OP, according to lewski)

needs more clarity methinks
the idea here is clarify when something is EDITED to be a tv sized' if a song is originally that long its not TV SIZED its just the normal song and thus the marker is misrepresentitive of the song having a different size is the issue

we have the source field for stuff being used in media, adding a SIZE marker is misrepresentitive, and i think changing it to TV Edit, would be really jaring for the community and game at large as the game has a history of using TV Size thus we just keep TV Size but clarify its usage
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 1 time in total.
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,106 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
i think the general osu public sees tv size = 1m30 so having cases where there is no tv size and the song is still just a 1m30 song that was used as an anime op completely defeats the point of having the marker which is to denote hey this was an anime opening
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nao Tomori wrote:

i think the general osu public sees tv size = 1m30 so having cases where there is no tv size and the song is still just a 1m30 song that was used as an anime op completely defeats the point of having the marker which is to denote hey this was an anime opening
i agree that the community sees tv size as a 1:30 song and ill also state that the majority of the community would assume that when a song has the tv size marker its very likely an edit of a longer song. if the song has no tv size marker because its just naturally that ling we still have the source field, and im going to make some presumptions here but id say most people looking for maps would be more annoyed to find a 3 minute tv size then a 1:30 opening with no marker
achyoo
osu! Alumni
442 posts
Joined January 2016
achyoo
I think this won't really have the effect you'd want, but as a way to make the RC more clear I support this proposal.

So some cases these will affect would be

1: Songs where the version played on TV is the only version; there is no full version.

Previously: TV Size marker to be appended.
New proposal: No TV Size marker needed.

2: Songs where the version played on TV is a 30s or 1m30s cut from the full version.

Both scenarios: TV Size marker to be appended.

3: Songs where the version played on TV is cut from the full version, but is longer than 1m30s

Examples of this would include the Bocchi map you linked in your original post

Both scenarios: TV Size marker to be appended.

4: Songs where the version played on TV is the full version.

Examples of this would include Trysail - High Free Spirits (full ver used as insert) or any Revue Starlight insert (insert = full ver). Railgun S2 also uses some of the old OPs as inserts in the last episode. Many anime also use full version of the OPs or EDs as the ED for the final episode as well

Previously: Ambiguity over whether TV Size is needed. However, TV Size has historically never been appended for these cases.
New proposal: No TV Size marker needed.

While I'm in support of the proposal to remove ambiguity, I'm fairly certain this wouldn't solve the issue you alluded to in your most recent reply

Sparhten wrote:

Nao Tomori wrote:

i think the general osu public sees tv size = 1m30 so having cases where there is no tv size and the song is still just a 1m30 song that was used as an anime op completely defeats the point of having the marker which is to denote hey this was an anime opening
i agree that the community sees tv size as a 1:30 song and ill also state that the majority of the community would assume that when a song has the tv size marker its very likely an edit of a longer song. if the song has no tv size marker because its just naturally that ling we still have the source field, and im going to make some presumptions here but id say most people looking for maps would be more annoyed to find a 3 minute tv size then a 1:30 opening with no marker
In scenario 3 mentioned above, the map would still require a TV Size marker while being longer than the 1m30s you mentioned, and the proposal won't change that
Last edited by achyoo , edited 3 times in total.
StarCastler
osu! Alumni
151 posts
Joined June 2018
StarCastler
I always found this rule fairly clear, however I understand how a few edge cases might be a bit annoying to deal with. Perhaps rather than changing the wording to edited, another sentence could clarify exceptions/allowances where it doesn't make sense.

achyoo wrote:

1: Songs where the version played on TV is the only version; there is no full version.

Previously: TV Size marker to be appended.
New proposal: No TV Size marker needed.
Do consider that while this scenario sounds good in practice, it doesn't account for future song releases well. If for example, a song is released only in TV Size and it is unclear if there is a full version, not including a marker could cause some confusion if another version of the song is later released.
Last edited by StarCastler , edited 1 time in total.
Ryu Sei
2,897 posts
Joined October 2013
Ryu Sei
In case #1, since the provided metadata and source is only that, there is no need to have overarching speculation whether the song will have 'full' version in the future. The ranking process only considers what happens in that time. If that ever happens, we can simply correct the map if it's qualified, or have the future maps to have the corrected metadata.
aceticke
Global Moderator
236 posts
Joined August 2016
aceticke
Disagree with current wording of the proposal, edited means that songs with no full version will no longer get a (TV Size) marker, this however, adds more confusion if say the song gets a full version AFTER the map is ranked.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

aceticke wrote:

Disagree with current wording of the proposal, edited means that songs with no full version will no longer get a (TV Size) marker, this however, adds more confusion if say the song gets a full version AFTER the map is ranked.
this is generally only problematic in the case someone ranks a rip from the anime itself which isnt exactly common and 99% of the songs this does affect have clearly stated full release dates or full versions advertised at the time of the announcement


@ayuuchi
again i think the reasoning im having issues here is that we're calling it TV size Implying theres another version of the song thats a different size or edit, in which its just simply wrong meta data wise. the cases of tv sizes being released first before the official full version are very rare as most if not all songs will be stated as having a full version or release.

StarCastler wrote:

Do consider that while this scenario sounds good in practice, it doesn't account for future song releases well. If for example, a song is released only in TV Size and it is unclear if there is a full version, not including a marker could cause some confusion if another version of the song is later released.
i mean the same could be said vice versa hence something like the bocchi song could be released in an album at the start of the anime, and then is used as a full song 8 weeks later in the anime and then have the tv size marker on it. overall i think that having a TV Size marker to indicate a known edit would be more beneficial, than having the marker indicate a song was used in media since we have the source feild.

if something changes like a song being released shortened for an anime opening or whatever and then is later released in a full version with no warning is no different then if a full version is released and is then used in an anime at a later date. atleast with the former we can clarify later in sets ranked after that there are other versions, where if we use current and we rank the same exact song it will have different meta data stating that theyre different versions when theyre not
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 1 time in total.
achyoo
osu! Alumni
442 posts
Joined January 2016
achyoo
3 weeks late but

Sparhten wrote:

@ayuuchi
again i think the reasoning im having issues here is that we're calling it TV size Implying theres another version of the song thats a different size or edit, in which its just simply wrong meta data wise. the cases of tv sizes being released first before the official full version are very rare as most if not all songs will be stated as having a full version or release.
"Implying theres another version" but there is?? The full version of the song is 4mins with 3 chorus. The TV Size used in the anime (and in the map) is 2 chorus and is 2mins+. What are you misunderstanding?
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,952 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
I think we want to include both "natural" tv sizes and things edited to be similar or identical to insert songs, current suggestion makes it seem as if things with TV Sizes in the title naturally would be excluded so it'd be something like this:

If a song or an edited version of a song is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening/ending/insert song, use a (TV Size) marker at the end of the current title. If there is an existing TV size marker in the title, replace it with (TV Size).

Maybe even clarify with a "This includes Full Versions / Long Versions cut down or otherwise made similar to the length of the version used in the respective series" at the end?
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten
yeah definitally would add that in, like the current wording has iirc
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten
rereading this in response to oko, my intention IS to remove things that are naturally used as an opening in their full length, so wording would be more clear that this is a different version of the song rather then the same song that just happened to be used in media. hence why i want the change in the first place
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,952 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
i think this is addressed by community/forums/topics/1894663?n=1 , if not we'll address it in its revisio next week
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