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osu! ranking discussion

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Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
Echo
Let's also start some discussion on a rather controversial topic.

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?

Feel free to add more questions, but I've already thrown quite a lot out there =D
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
So... I'm supposed to answer these questions?

EDIT

Echo wrote:

Let's also start some discussion on a rather controversial topic.

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping?Yes.
Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map?No.
Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres? No.

Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Nope.
Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"?Try whistles every note.
Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?Yes.

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map?Definitely.
Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."?Yes.
Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?I do. My 1st two maps had colours from the map itself.
...Meh. Skipped questions I don't know how to answer.
Last edited by Jinxy , edited 3 times in total.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
Shut up, Jinxy, you're not funny. Either contribute to the topic or just keep your unfunny mouth shut.

The only thing that really jumped out at me among that list of questions was the sliders thing. I just hate it when mappers suddenly change slider velocity out of the blue. I'd rather they put in a warning before it happens or just not do it. I might find some examples when I'm not feeling so lazy.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
this should be interesting to read. i answered just some of them.

Echo wrote:

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
the only thing i have to say here is that some songs makes the map more then it is, so yes certain songs will produce better quality. i would paste in some examples however i do not want to offend anyone.


Echo wrote:

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
if the map is bad but has a good storyboard, then its alright.
if the map is good and has a good storyboard, then its awesome

yea, stupid answer i know.

Echo wrote:

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
i dont think hitsounds are always necessary in a beatmap, but it does make the beatmap more interesting. we all have a different view on how music sounds to our ears, so calling someones hitsounds bad are quite difficult. ofcourse if a beatmap consists of just whistles, claps and finishes on every single note in a map, that is bad. if someone were to force me to remove/add hitsounds on something i dont like, i would first atleast try to find more oppinions of it.

Echo wrote:

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
i would say combo coloring is quite important. one should follow vocals or instruments. however in some maps you may be creating your own rythm, which can be combo colored your own way.

Echo wrote:

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
i take as much modding from mods as i am comfortable with. i will fight for my own map if people mods it the way i didnt intend the map to be played or atleast get more oppinions before i change anything.

Echo wrote:

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?
*sigh* what is important with this is just keeping a pattern if one were to chose using bpm changes. in todays maps i see people using multipliers just to make the map harder, which is quite lame and ruins gameplay sometimes.

example:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/8101 <- take Oru's insane and play it. i think the BPM changes follow a pattern, so it is alright. also i thought it was pretty cool.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/8033 <- [Insane], theres just no point at all for a speed up here. there is no difference in the music, and there is no chorus in it. other then that its an awesome map and i liked it alot.

kiai time - no comment <_<


bleh this was quite difficult to supply with good answers.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

Gabi wrote:

Echo wrote:

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
i dont think hitsounds are always necessary in a beatmap, but it does make the beatmap more interesting. we all have a different view on how music sounds to our ears, so calling someones hitsounds bad are quite difficult. ofcourse if a beatmap consists of just whistles, claps and finishes on every single note in a map, that is bad. if someone were to force me to remove/add hitsounds on something i dont like, i would first atleast try to find more opinions of it.
When I mod, I expect that if I suggest the addition or removal of a hitsound, that the mapper will try adding/removing it, play through the new sample in context, and either keep it or not depending on their own opinion of whether it sounds better or not. I think this applies regardless of who suggested the hitsound, although if several people suggest the same change or if the mapper themself knows that they are not good at hitsounds, I would say just change it anyways.

Note the difference between several people all suggesting a change and several people arguing over whether a change should be made, though. The easiest way to solve this is to put forward a standard measurement, but imo if there is a consistent argument (does this shortish gap require a break or not?) that the mapper should pick a side and stick with it.
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru

Echo wrote:

Let's also start some discussion on a rather controversial topic.

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
Originality and creativity, in my opinion, are patterns and spacings that not only fit a song, but have been rarely used before, and are therefore new and challenging. This doesn't necessarily mean confining one's self to set standards, though some view this as simply bad beatspacing. I like to see it as fun and exciting, provided that they are properly indicated by both the song (a particularly loud or fast section, for instance), and combo colors.

Echo wrote:

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
Beatspacing is extremely important in a map, since it's a large contributor to the overall difficulty, and therefore playability, of a map. I do not think that a map should be held from ranking due to spacing that is "too difficult" or "too easy", but rather for spacing that does not match a particular song. As I stated above, I believe that there should be an indication of why something should be used; it should fit the song or have a warning. As for the "intuitiveness" of spacing, the mapper or modder must have some reason to call a map unintuitive. Be it that a note pattern is following an established route as per a previous section of a map, or the song "indicates" such a patten, a mapper, in my opinion, should not just throw random notes into a map.

Echo wrote:

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
Yes, of course. As with all music games, the song choice is a huge factor in how fun it is to play. That's the reason why Taiko no Taijutsin's American released cut out a good portion of the Japanese songs, replacing them with songs that the typical American would probably recognize. That's not to say that a good map cannot come with a bad song; it's just that a good song will probably "feel better", even if the maps are of the same quality. To put it simply, if I don't want to listen to it, I probably don't want to have to hit beats in accordance to it. As for Genres, I don't think they effect map quality as much as map difficulty. Hardcore seems to be the favorite of the extremely difficulty maps, since it's easier to create confusing, difficulty beats in sync with a Hardcore song than it is for, for example, a slow county song.

Echo wrote:

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
I personally love maps with storyboarded elements. It makes it feel polished and more exciting than a map with a simple background. It gives a map an air of of being "special", or above the rest, that, in turn (for me at least), translates into a more fun map to play. One of the undisclosed maps for the osu! tag tournament finals, for example, uses storyboard elements to give it an kind of an "epic finish" feel to it, ideal for the final showdown between the last two standing in the tournament. I feel like the inclusion of storyboard elements does make for a "better" map, in the sense that it feels more finished and more professional (provided the storyboard is used correctly), than a map lacking such elements.

Echo wrote:

Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Yes, coloring is very important. It adds to the air of a map, while being an indicator (along with the approach circle), of jumps or surprise sections.


Echo wrote:

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?
There really has to be a warning system for the speed of sliders. I've suggested spacing the "ridges" in the slider accordingly before, though I also think a slider animation, featuring the ridges moving in accordance to the speed, could work. I'm not against fast sliders, but I do feel annoyed when I miss a full combo because of a slider break on a 2x slider (Yes, you, Border of Death).

Echo wrote:

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
No. Quality control is what makes osu! great, and above a lot of the community-run rhythm games out there. The approval system should be more lenient, though. They don't affect score at all (well, until that accuracy bug is fixed), and should therefore be open to more maps that are made well, but are either way to difficult, and therefore liable to break some scores, or special maps, such as TAG or special challenge maps. Why place the same kind of harsh criteria required for ranking on to approved? If there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a map, then I believe that admission should be assumed, since anything like insane jumps or sliders should just be considered part of the challenge if the mapper is specifically going to approved. I also think that once the community grows enough in skill, some maps should be placed into Ranked from Approved, at the discretion of BATs and peppy.


*cracks knuckles*
Left out some questions, but... eh, I couldn't answer them, since I don't really care either way with the ones I didn't answer.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
I'll try to answer every question.

Echo wrote:

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"?
Well, i think every map is "original" in its own way, but it takes something else to be "creative", for example you should try something new to make your beatmap "creative", may it be spacing, storyboarding or whatever. (examples: Je T'aime or No life Queen)
Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative?
One can think it's work is creative but maybe it's not even playable, so i guess the answer is "no"
However, i think everyone tries to make their maps "creative" to have more people like them
Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
Well, everyone may have different opinions about what's "creative or original". Someone will like a map and someone else won't. But i'm sure noone can disagree when a map is playable.

How important is beatspacing to you?
A lot, but it doesn't always have to be perfectly snapped.
Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map?
Yes, because spacing and beat placement are also part of the map.
Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
The answers are pretty much the same as above: even weird spacing can be perfectly playable if mapped well

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping?
So and so: everyone maps songs they like and i think it's fine that way, even if songs may actually be not so good
Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map?
Mapping style is made by the mapper himself, but i guess the rhythm affects the mapper while he's editing (not so much to "dictate", though)
Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
Sadly yes, some songs fit way better in rhythm games

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping?
It's great but underused because it takes lots of time
How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting?
I usually don't use storyboard, but here's what i think: if you want to use SB, you have to use it to make something that fits the map, may it be a story or a simple animation. Otherwise it's better to make nothing at all.
Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
SB can make a better map, but we can't forget that what we play is the map, not the SB. SB is an extra that can help to make a "original" map
Do hitsounds make a map more interesting?
Yes, definitely
Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map?
Yes
Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"?
Sure, just look at Jumpin Jack Flash: every hitsound is Finish and creaks your ears
Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
I think that statements like that are always suggestions. Opinions like "I don't think this hitsound feels good here 9:99:999" are welcome, but i think it's wrong to criticize the whole hitsound work of someone (unless is something stupid like the map above)

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map?
Yes, it helps the player to understand the change of what's being mapped
Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."?
So and so, everyone has their own style they put the combos with, but suggestions that fit that style are welcome
Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Yes

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in?
Everything that helps the map to be more playable and enjoyable
When is it OK to say "no"?
When you fell something is just useless or too picky
Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion?
You must fix when it ruins the gameplay. The rest may be classified as suggestions
Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
Why not? They can benefit their past errors/experiences to make better maps

Do you use timing section multipliers?
Sometimes
Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting?
Yes, they can make a map more interesting
Do you think this is overused?
Sometimes it is overused, imho
Do you like the idea of Kiai Time?
Yes
Do you think this is overused?
Sometimes, but less than slow/speed sliders

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play?
Honestly, i dunno, but i think it's fine this way
Why or why not?
Because osu was born with this system and it worked quite well
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
Please pardon the block of text.
First off; I am guessing anyone is free to contribute to this?
What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? To an extent Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative? To an extent
Further Explanation:
No one wants maps that are exactly the same, at least I can't think of anyone who would want that. Anyone has the right to call their or someone elses work original, so long as it is genuine and not used to evade a rough modding/re-mapping. While all originality can't be considered good, I think that when it fits the song and contributes to gameplay (read: fun) it is a good thing. Originality might also be easier to build on higher diffs, as it seems like you're given more freedom there. Since you need to adapt a difficulty made for new players, to be simpler.
How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? tbh, sometimes no Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? To an extent Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing? To an extent
Further Explanation:
See above. If a ginormous jump fits the song and it's on a higher difficulty, I don't see why it should pose such a mountain of a problem. If it's fun, who cares? Really. Might not be a good comparison, but when I play some other game, (like Thief on expert) I don't call the gamedev and ask them to make the guards stupider because I can't sneak past them.
Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Maybe Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? It can Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres? No
Further Explanation:
Depends. Maybe and No. Let's face it, not all songs make "good" maps and not all maps on "good" songs are that good.
How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map? This is another tough one
Further Explanation:
Storyboards can make a good map awesome, but they can also make it cluttered and ruin the map. In my view, it's like balancing on a knife's edge. A good map might not need a storyboard because it's clean and fun enough, not everything needs shiny graphics. But sometimes a storyboard can keep the player interested in between breaks, or through slower parts of a song.
Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Sometimes Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? No, gods no Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Yes Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."? Anyone has the right to complain if it bothers them
Further Explanation:
When mapping some songs, the song might not be very well adapted for the full spectrum of flashy soundeffects. Others can be greatly enriched by adding hitsounds. Some hitsounds will not work, that's just a personal opinion but I don't think covering something like a Shaman song with normal whistle or even clap is a very good idea. I think a certain amount of consideration needs to be taken, hitsound spam in the name of 'this will get it ranked' is a really bad idea. If it doesn't fit and just makes the map unbearable, cut it.
Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? No? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? If it bothers them, they should speak Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Further Explanation:
I don't think it is essential, I don't really pay any attention to that stuff when I play. To me it looks like streams of colors, if the colors go well and look like they go with the music, sure gj it looks nice. But I don't know if the numbering is really that important.
How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
Further Explanation:
There is no yes or no. The way I see it, it all looks like a kind of battle between modders and mappers. Which is not the way it's supposed to be. Making a map should be more of a collaboration between different people, of different "experience" trying to do their best to make a good, interesting and enjoyable map. To me, I don't think it matters if the advice is coming from some guy watching me from behind my chair or some "experienced veteran" on osu. To be perfectly honest about one thing tough; I don't think that senior mappers should be trusted more than senior players, why? Because players often know what they consider entertaining to play. I think the line needs to be drawn where it severly hampers gameplay (hard is fun, but sometimes retardedly hard is not even close to fun) or when something feels really out of place.
Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused? Used in a really weird way sometimes*
Further Explanation:
Sudden sliders at alarming speeds that can not be predicted, no thanks, with a warning? Sure why not. As with everything I say; if it fits, go ahead. Kiai? Not really, it's waayy too flashy and most of the time it feels really awkward. But sometimes I find it really pleasing, see: Kharl's map of RevenG - Sakura.
Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
Further Explanation:
If this is about the general approval/ranking system then:
Gods no. Allowing everything to slip past would be horrible, doesn't really solve anything. It would make people making maps happier, A LOT happier even. But I don't want to think about what kinds of maps would be found up there. One person can not alone make a map good, a map needs a certain standard of quality that can only be attained through collaboration.
Clarification:
People seem to be more focused on getting maps ranked, as opposed to making them fun.
cyanberryio
424 posts
Joined August 2008
cyanberryio

Echo wrote:

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
What you decide on for creativity is basically based on your mapping preference. IMHO, I see some of the more popular maps not in my tastes, so everyone has their own thought of "creative."

Echo wrote:

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
I actually wouldn't mind a map with spacing as in Airman. It was strangely, but (IMO) spaced in a fun way. And again, it's based on opinion. Some could say, "ugly spacing" and some will say "unique spacing." And it's all opinion.

Echo wrote:

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
It doesn't really matter for the song choice, although there are some songs that won't be so easy to map "well." And the rhythm of the song can deeply affect the style. Slow song with little beat can be so much different from any other fast song with lots of beat. And basically, just saying, I don't think J-music will not be overtaken by any genre. >_> Just kinda truth...

Echo wrote:

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
Depends on how well the storyboard is done. As long as it isn't overdone/ugly, it is usually a neat touch to it. And I try to get as much SBing in my maps as I can, just because I can use it. As said before, storyboards give a nice touch-up to the map, but won't really make a crappy one any better. u.u

Echo wrote:

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
I like the overuse of hitsounds! n.n Such as in "Hamatte Sabotte Oh My Ga!" I just like all the whistles. >_> But now I think that not everyone does, and they can say their opinion of a map of what to keep/remove. And that's what modding is.

Echo wrote:

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Of course, combos must be split at good places where they fit, usually, even if a map follows the beat, they can be split to follow the vocals, IMO. And I always try to find a fitting combo coloring(yes, no "u" :P)for a map.

Echo wrote:

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
It's all up the the mapper, they can say, "Oh, this change was for the good of the map"(of course a lot shorter v.v) or, "I don't really like this change, disagree." And for the last question, it's up the mapper, although maybe first time mappers should listen a bit more so they improve, and hopefully by their second map they won't have as many mistakes.

Echo wrote:

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?
Yes, quite a bit(I have an unsubmitted map with lots of them, but then I saw the already version right below it). And I like changes basically per-section for 2x or 0.5x(or maybe more/less ^.^). I don't really mind if it's overused either, just gonna have to "Retry" again. Kiai is great. :D I like overused Kiai too. <_< Such as in "Sakura Mau Kono Yakusoku no Chi de"(pending still?) the Kiai bursts were neat when it went off quite a bit. But then it was changed because of the new guideline. :(

Echo wrote:

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
NO! The ranking/approval system is fun, without it, well... where did I hear "Quality Control?"

Answers, obviously, are in bold and dark red.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

The_Priest_In_Yellow wrote:

Clarification:
People seem to be more focused on getting maps ranked, as opposed to making them fun.
Amen, brother. There are very few times that mappers and modders act as if they are putting their heads together and mulling over the most enjoyable and beautiful way of expressing the art form that is beatmapping. People tend to map with the mentality that mods are going to try to tell them what to do and they have the onerous task of judging what comments to let in and what comments to defend against. People tend to mod with the mentality that they are trying to find things they dont like about the map and get the mapper to make them more likeable.

Not to say that I am not guilty of thinking in this way; its very insidious and takes over somewhere between "I have my first map and I want to know what people think of it" and "people don't like my map but I do." Then the mapper learns to mod and their modding tactics inevitably follow almost perfectly the tactics that their own modders used on them. This is how the nazi-modding trend began and ended - one highly active mod influencing a large number of mappers.

I have also seen cases where this way of thinking was not in place, specifically among some people creating their first map. The mapper came in with the thought of "I want to learn how to map better" and the modder came in with the thought "I see untapped potential in this mapper, let me see if I can help them bring it out." This tends to instill, rather than a rivalry, a partnership between the two that leaves the map in better shape than it had been at the beginning but also leaves both of the participants feeling warm and fuzzy about it.

What I think would be best is for everyone who reads this thread to remember this the next time they are in a modding situation and try to change the way they think about modding or being modded. Modding is a means of personal growth or nurturing, not a process to move past. I think if we can change our attitude, the arguments and conflicts will begin to disappear.


also a little note on the end: most unrankable things come from people trying too hard to be different and special ;o its not wrong so much as a phase that they go through on the way to creating their own distinct style.
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder
What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
Originality is patterns that have never been used before and creativity is creating new ways to play certain parts of a song. If they made it themselves I guess it is original. But people like to copy other styles but in a way it is still creativity if you created the beatmap by yourself without people telling you where to place notes and stuff. I think everyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative.

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
Beatspacing is important with streams the long streams. It is also important to have good beatspacing to be able to click on time. Some spacing can mess people up but sometimes altered spacing "like jumps and anti-jumps" make things more interesting and fun. Beatmaps must be at very intuitive to be ranked. Intuitive spacing depends on the person playing the beatmap. Most people can read the jumps and anti-jumps while some can't read them well.

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
Song choice isn't really an important aspect to mapping. It depends on how you map it. The song's rhythm can be be altered if you change your style of the map. Song's rhythm < style of map . Everyone maps anime songs. It depends on how you map the genre....its never the song that decided how good a beatmap can be.

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
Storyboarding may cause lag. Storyboarding can be used in good ways and distracting ways. Storyboarding could make beatmaps confusing or fun and interesting. If a beatmap has no storyboard then it doesn't mean its boring. Storyboarding is like additive things like custom hitsounds. They both can make the beatmap fun but without them the beatmap can still be fun. It depends on what the storyboard and custom hitsounds contribute to the beatmap and how it contributes.

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
Hitsounds don't just make beatmaps more interesting. It adds rhythm to the beatmap which also goes in hand with intuitive spacing. Hitsounds are a must in any map. If the normal hitsounds don't work then custom hitsounds could fill in the void. Beatmaps are easier to play when you have the right hitsound patterns. Of course hitsounds can be used badly. Just like music can be made badly. People have the right to express their opinions on hitsounds...but they should never be entirely forced to change hitsounds if the hitsound pattern sounds odd to the beatmappper.

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Combos are also supposed to match the rhythm of the beatmap. It makes it easier to follow the beat. Combos can also be in relation to the note placement patterns they use. If you think the combo numbering is wrong you would have to inspect the patterns being used first. Combo colouring adds a nice effect to beatmaps when used correctly. If your combo colours are too hard to see because of kiai time or SB's or something like that then changes should be made.


How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
The mapper should try to see if the modder's advice makes the beatmap seem more organized or interesting. It is okay to say no when the beatmap looks organized and is intuitive when playing. If the hitsounds "scare you" like it did when I was modding Ekaru's beatmap lol or feel weird then they should definitely be changed. If the note patterns are a bit off then it should be changed. For the last question...everyone should listen to everyone

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?
Yes I do use them. It makes the beatmap more interesting, yup. Overused...only if it becomes confusing then it is being overused...I wouldn't even care if there was a SB to help me follow the speed of the sliders if its confusing.
Kiai Time can get in the way of your view of the cursor location and possible the notes themselves. Never use kiai streams at jumps. Kiai Time is overused a bit in some beatmaps.


Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
You mean a literal "insta-rank"? That makes me think of SM...even though I don't play it. I don't think they should be instantly ranked we just need more people that can actually rank and mod these overflow of beatmaps.

Feel free to add more questions, but I've already thrown quite a lot out there =D
To solve the overflow of pending beatmaps what should we do?

Get more people that can rank beatmaps...theres tons of modders out there [like me] that can mod but we need more BAT members to actually rank these things. Moderators isn't the problem.

EDIT: Or something like BAT but for ranking beatmaps only.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

Echo wrote:

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
Meh, I don't have much to say on this one. If it makes sense, then it's okay. XP If someone thinks the map is "new" and "different" (in good ways), then sure, it's original/creative/whatever.

Echo wrote:

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
Pretty important. Especially in harder songs, it's difficult enough to sightread streams/stacks everywhere if the spacing is inconsistent. I love jumps if they make sense and aren't overused. If someone has sporadic spacing that doesn't make sense, then people have the right to call that mapper out and tell them to change it. I've told people on many occasions that they have bad spacing (that they thought was fine) and that it should be fixed or even completely redone. XP

Echo wrote:

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
Sometimes. If someone likes a song enough and thinks that they can make a nice map out of it, then maybe they will. Yeah, some genres might be better/easier for making maps, but I don't think that's there's entire genres or massive groups of songs that are "unmappable."

Echo wrote:

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?
I. Love. Storyboards. (and skins :P ) Most storyboards can really bring a map to life. The same thing with skins. Just changing the countdown/warning-arrows/pass/fail/spinner/etc can really give some nice touches to maps that otherwise just felt... "default". When comparing a storyboarded map to a regular map, I would personally rather play the one with the storyboard. Does it make it a "better map"? If executed well enough, probably.

Echo wrote:

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
Yes oh yes oh yes. Especially custom hitsounds can make a map more interesting. Are they a must? Not always. Sometimes the music has a distinguishable enough rhythm as to that hitsounds would be redundant. Yeah, sometimes they can be used badly (whistle spam, a clap on every other note, too many finishes that don't make sense, etc.), but most of the time they're fine. I don't think anyone has the right to say "a note won't work". It's the mappers decision, and if they think a note works well on a certain note, then it's fine. Mappers should always be open to suggestions to hitsounds, though.

Echo wrote:

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
Sometimes, yeah. If a combo is going up to the high teens (on an easier/slower map) and it doesn't make sense, then it probably should be lowered. If it's an insane map where the stream goes on and on and the combo ends up 20+, then it's probably fine. A song that comes to mind is awp's The World Ends With You OST - DejaVu. Some of the combos go up to ~30 IIRC, but it's a long stream of stacks that MAKE SENSE. It just wouldn't feel right if it was split up into different combos. tl;dr if it makes sense, then it's probably alright. Colors? I ALWAYS take combo colors into account when creating maps. If all maps used the defaults, then they'd be less exciting. Nicely picked colors can really make a map stand out and make it more fun. (aesthetics = fun <3)

Echo wrote:

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
Personally, I'm always open to suggestions. If people think that hitsounds/spacings/etc would make more sense, then I'll probably use their suggestion. If any mapper thinks that the suggestions were not useful or needed, then it's okay to say "no". If someone mentions a problem, rather than a suggestion, and the mapper refuses to fix it (perhaps an unrankable slider or high combos that don't make sense; etc.), then a line needs to be drawn. Less experienced mappers should always listen to more experienced mappers' advice. Unless they're a prodigy that are making perfect maps, then there's probably going to be a bunch of problems that will need to be addressed.

Echo wrote:

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?
I used one for a 2x speed slider in Lum no Love Song's [Normal]. There was a spot that had 5 1/4 notes and I felt that they should be heard in the map. So, I used a slider to emulate it. If a part of a song speeds up/slows down without an actual BPM change and a slider feels right, then I think that multipliers can be justifiably used. If it doesn't make sense, then don't use it. Yeah, sometimes they're overused, but I've seen some maps REALLY become more exciting with them. e.g., Circus and Strobe Nights. Kiai time can also bring a map to life, but again, only if it's used in spots that make sense. Kiai time is overused sometimes imo, but I think it's fine most of the time.

Echo wrote:

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
No, for the reasons it was created for. (tired of typing now xp)
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Echo wrote:

Let's also start some discussion on a rather controversial topic.

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?

Originality and creativity have nothing to do with how a beatmap plays, it's nice to try something new or try something that isn't done enough but just because you did something different doesn't mean we have to like it or approve of it.

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?

Immensely important, Slider speed, distance snapping, stacking opposed to streaming, messing one of these things up can make or break a map. Having a dull and unintuitive slider speed and distance snap can keep a map down right from the beginning. On the opposite, one unfun section is all it takes to ruin a maps experience. People need to also realize that if something isn't done often, it may be for a reason. Sharp turning streams are generally just a pain in the ass, On my Demetori - Mysterious mountain map I had to curve the streams due to not having enough space but they never seemed to feel fluid to me.

Another note that I feel is not criticized enough on is repeating sliders. Some general rules I think should be put out in the open more.
A. Never have repeating sliders end in the opposite direction that the flow of the map is going.
B. If you're using short repeating sliders you should be committing yourself to one set of repeats that follows the rhythm, NEVER try to mix up how many times a slider repeats. If people feel comfortable with one slider rhythm and you change that, they will take notice. If the beat of the song doesn't allow for a clear repeating slider rhythm then maybe you shouldn't be using repeating sliders at all.
C. If you do choose to have repeating sliders, make sure they last long enough and are consistent throughout, a GREAT example of repeating sliders being used in succession would be Red Sign, they go with the beat, and never throw you off.

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?

To an extent song choice is important, good mappers can take the less favorable songs and make maps out of them, but I do agree some songs are doomed to failure.

A song's rhythm should be the entire basis of a map, it dictates the patterns you can use, it dictates what slider speeds and spacing will feel best. Forcing a cool pattern you thought of into a map that just doesn't have the rhythm for it will be unfun. Try to think of patterns while you're mapping, patterns that will fit well with the rhythm

How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? Consider two maps that you believe are fun, but one has storyboarded elements while the other does not, such as Cross Time and Baby Cruising Love. Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map?

Storyboarding is almost strictly icing on the cake. In fact, It's not even the icing, its just the message you put on the cake, and the icing designs on the cake. A bad map will be a bad map. A good map will be a good map. But spicing up the presentation is always nice and even can change people's views of the map even if the map itself isn't the greatest. Personally I thought baby cruising love is overrated. It's a solid map and a great storyboard, but it's only that. There are clearly better maps out there.

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?

I don't like this topic, there are maps that take hitsounds and make something great with them. There are also maps that are fine with minimal hitsounds. As long as you don't take notice that a they sound bad, you should let it be. Sometimes, a lot of hitsounds will break a map more than making it. Hitsounds are almost like a thing a beatmap can do without, but can break the map if used wrong.

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?

Combo coloring is just more aesthetic appeal, try to keep combos per section. It should feel natural when to begin and end combos.

NEVER USE COMBO COLORS AS AN EXCUSE FOR UNDERSPACING/OVERSPACING. IF IT FEELS UNATURAL OR INTERRUPTS THE FLOW OF THE MAP, IT'S GOING TO MESS PEOPLE UP REGARDLESS OF YOUR "WARNING".

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?

Another hard topic, which was worsened by kudosu and nazi-modding. Modding should strictly be what that player thought was wrong or felt off in your map. When taking the modpost, you have to remember that this is what people thought made the map bad/lacking. If you'd rather keep the map the way you want it go ahead, but don't expect that person to like the end product, it's up to you to decide what is going to affect everyone and what is just a small complaint from a single person. If multiple people dislike the same thing, it's strongly advised to take their advice. If a BAT doesn't like something of the map, fish for a BAT that doesn't mind, but if multiple BATs are disapproving of your map. Take a hint.

Do you use timing section multipliers? Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Do you think this is overused? Do you like the idea of Kiai Time? Do you think this is overused?

I'm starting too more often, with songs with dramatic shifts in pacing I think it's a great way to add flavor to a map. In my Beloved Tomboyish Girl map I used slow sliders for sections when piano keys were held for a slightly longer duration as a type of emphasis on the hold. then the 3rd slider was normal speed to get you back into the spacing of the map and I felt it flowed pretty well because I kept it consistent throughout the map so people should know what to expect and not be thrown off. Of course, people ruin this with completely unexpected holds/BPM increases. It's sometimes hard to tell for a mapper to tell what feels off and what feels natural because he knows exactly what to expect when playing through the map. This fact makes me paranoid as hell when playing through one of my own maps. When you have a map that has a bunch of jumps, sometimes a normally spaced section could feel more unnatural than using more jumps in that section.

Kiai Time needs to be In epic sections or putting emphasis on one section of the map(if its the same section repeated but you mapped it slightly differently or it's approaching the end of the map.) turning it on and off frequently is usually just annoying. Don't say lazy has some really poor use of kiai because it will be used seemingly arbitrarily and for a short time, it tries to flow with the highs and lows but it's too frequent.

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?

No, even with the problems people may have with the approval system, it still is a great quality control. Peppy had some good ideas to help block out maps that flat out had no effort put into them.

If anything needs to be done about the current system is that maps that are completely poor in quality will end up getting at the top of priority due to the amount of problems they have. These are usually bland and boring maps themselves and taking attention away from the really great maps.
I want to know how others feel about repeating sliders too.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

lukewarmholiday wrote:

If anything needs to be done about the current system is that maps that are completely poor in quality will end up getting at the top of priority due to the amount of problems they have. These are usually bland and boring maps themselves and taking attention away from the really great maps..
^^^^^^^^

People feel obligated to give a star after modding a map, regardless of whether they actually liked the map or not. What a star should mean is that the person enjoyed the map and wants to see it ranked sooner, whereas now it just seems like stars are a simply a hit counter.

I might make a full response to the OP later >_>
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru

lukewarmholiday wrote:

I want to know how others feel about repeating sliders too.

Eh, I'm on the fence on this one. For one, I'd really like people to stop sticking kick sliders into streams, since there is very little indication (often at short notice) as to when the slider will actually finish and the stream will start up again, forcing a player to almost memorize that section of the map to FC it. Though, setting limitations on repeating sliders in general feels like hindering creativity in maps, although I suppose that could be decided case-by-case.

Kick sliders, in general, annoy me in that you don't know when they are going to end. All you have are the notes before and after the kick, forcing you to make assumptions based on that. If the mapper decided to add another repeat in that particular slider, or add a jump right after, you'll end up with a surprise broken combo. I wish there was a way to see how many kicks the slider actually goes through, or some kind of warning as to when it will end, perhaps a change in color or progress meter alongside it.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I like how right before SFG said that 2 people replied to another post other than the OP.

Kick sliders, in general, annoy me in that you don't know when they are going to end. All you have are the notes before and after the kick, forcing you to make assumptions based on that. If the mapper decided to add another repeat in that particular slider, or add a jump right after, you'll end up with a surprise broken combo. I wish there was a way to see how many kicks the slider actually goes through, or some kind of warning as to when it will end, perhaps a change in color or progress meter alongside it.
I pretty much agree with this. Also in maps with spacing changes it's even more of a hell, because you cant rely on spacing to tell you either.

But yet again the only map that I had no trouble reading was Red Sign but I have to consider that a very rare exception. Unless they are awkward in normal but I haven't played normal in the longest time~
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

hey guys the title of this thread says discussion so maybe there should be more responding to what other people say and less personal Q&A
okay but I'm only responding to the posts that aren't walls of doomtext
Sleep Powder
1,540 posts
Joined October 2008
Sleep Powder

0_o wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

If anything needs to be done about the current system is that maps that are completely poor in quality will end up getting at the top of priority due to the amount of problems they have. These are usually bland and boring maps themselves and taking attention away from the really great maps..
^^^^^^^^

People feel obligated to give a star after modding a map, regardless of whether they actually liked the map or not. What a star should mean is that the person enjoyed the map and wants to see it ranked sooner, whereas now it just seems like stars are a simply a hit counter.

I might make a full response to the OP later >_>
A star should mean that it needs the most attention...because well...its getting the most attention.
Even if its only kudosu starred ( my beatmap-that-must-not-be-named ) its still trying to get attention.
Star Priority was meant to get...well priority.
And the things that have the most priority need/have the most attention.

I am serious.
You can tell by my super seriousness of my serious post.
Even writing in black proves my seriousness.
I am serious.
Yes I am.
Last edited by Sleep Powder , edited 1 time in total.
RemmyX25
osu! Alumni
3,087 posts
Here since the beginning
RemmyX25
Map's need to be fun.

'Nuff said, I guess. Will answer questions if I ever get around to it
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Priority gets dull maps ranked and pushes away/delays the good maps.

That's what I'm trying to say here.

It's almost an inevitability but more good has come from the system than bad for sure.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Discuss from what other people said? B-b-but... walls of text D:!
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
Echo, I think at least a good 50% of your questions can be answered through empirical methodologies (activity: guess which ones!), so anyone who considers it subjective or controversial is either ignorant or unintelligent. The other subcategory, subjectivity, has a less systematic and quantifiable validity to it, so that one's really up to judgment on a per-case basis, but I'd put more money on the judgment of people with greater experience.

I'd list my exact thoughts but it'd be a wasted effort. I don't expect anyone to read my thoughts; I for one didn't read anyone else's.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

awp wrote:

Echo, I think at least a good 50% of your questions can be answered through empirical methodologies (activity: guess which ones!), so anyone who considers it subjective or controversial is either ignorant or unintelligent. The other subcategory, subjectivity, has a less systematic and quantifiable validity to it, so that one's really up to judgment on a per-case basis, but I'd put more money on the judgment of people with greater experience.

I'd list my exact thoughts but it'd be a wasted effort. I don't expect anyone to read my thoughts; I for one didn't read anyone else's.
im actually reading them >_>;
nsane
77 posts
Joined January 2009
nsane

Echo wrote:

What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative?
Originality and creativity are subjective, however, to an extent can be judged. I guess what I'm trying to say is there really is no way to truly judge these things, but sometimes people can come to an agreement on things such as this.

How important is beatspacing to you? Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?
Out of everything brought up in this thread I think spacing is the most important. Not only does it determine difficulty, but also plays a part in figuring out the rhythm and what the beats are mapped against.

Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres?
Song choice, in my opinion isn't that important as long as the mapper can map the song.

Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map? Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"? Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."?
Hitsounds . . . hmm, I don't really have an opinion on this except for when they're overused, then they get annoying.

Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."? Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?
About the only thing that gets me is when a new combo starts somewhere like in the middle of a stack.

How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in? When is it OK to say "no"? Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice?
Hmm, being a beginner when it comes to mapping myself, I guess it will depend on how much it will change the map and if it has something to do with spacing or timing. If it's a stylistic issue, I don't think I would listen (as I am quite stubborn).

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
I would keep the approval system.
Last edited by nsane , edited 1 time in total.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
thats why you cant expect to FC every map you play on the first try.
You SHOULD ALWAYS be able to FC a map on your first try.(excluding certain unranked extreme maps, but of course, they are unranked.) Knowing the song should be all the preparation you need before going into a map.

I don't mean everything should be piss easy and simple but I do mean nothing should be misleading or make you trip up unnecessarily. I guess a comparison would be how many people liked mines in stepmania or other DDRs, a large majority of people I knew despised them.

Kick sliders SHOULD BE readable when used, the problem is, MANY AREN'T.

dont get off topic. this will start a rather livley discussion about priority if you keep going on :\\
How would this be off topic, isn't that why this thread is here? I think we should at least be reading the topic title.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
On what has been discussed so far:

If it makes the map more fun, I'm for it. I don't care if it breaks my combo or looks stupid or whatever. If I come out of it smiling, it was worth it.

I don't get why more BATs need to be there to approve a map than to rank a map, considering that rankable maps are just approvable maps that fit additional criteria regarding score, song length, etc.

Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not?
Not quite, but I think it would be nice for mappers to be able to mark their maps as "finished" if they've given up on getting attention for ranking/approval. "Finished" maps would have scoreboards but not be counted toward your score or anything. (hello Poison)

And an addition:

I recently got my first ranked map (Battle! Gym Leader). So, a few thoughts on the ranking process from a first-timer to it.

Priority above 8 SP is pretty meaningless. Bubbled maps have a wide array of SP values. The only BAT attention that ever came to my map came when I actively pursued BATs and bothered them to look at my map. I still feel like I got lucky in that aspect. (Thanks Skyripper and Starrodkirby for putting up with me!)

Also, as the weeks in pending turned to months, I started getting a little impatient. When I finally ended up bothering some BATs to get my map ranked, it was partially because I knew I was finished with it and wanted to put it behind me, but didn't want to grave it and effectively waste the time of everyone who was nice enough to play it and give feedback. I can only wonder if others have done the same thing.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

Soaprman wrote:

Not quite, but I think it would be nice for mappers to be able to mark their maps as "finished" if they've given up on getting attention for ranking/approval. "Finished" maps would have scoreboards but not be counted toward your score or anything. (hello Poison)
That might alleviate a lot of the frustration, and so long as it doesnt contribute to score, accuracy, or the upload cap i actually support this idea. The only thing I am worried about is perhaps having people shove their bad maps into finished in order to upload new ones, rather than auto-graving. Perhaps require one BAT to put into Finished?

And an addition:

I recently got my first ranked map (Battle! Gym Leader). So, a few thoughts on the ranking process from a first-timer to it.

Priority above 8 SP is pretty meaningless. Bubbled maps have a wide array of SP values. The only BAT attention that ever came to my map came when I actively pursued BATs and bothered them to look at my map. I still feel like I got lucky in that aspect. (Thanks Skyripper and Starrodkirby for putting up with me!)

Also, as the weeks in pending turned to months, I started getting a little impatient. When I finally ended up bothering some BATs to get my map ranked, it was partially because I knew I was finished with it and wanted to put it behind me, but didn't want to grave it and effectively waste the time of everyone who was nice enough to play it and give feedback. I can only wonder if others have done the same thing.
I'm afraid that its true; while the priority system has greatly improved the modding community, it is far from perfect. I do everything I can to tackle all beatmaps on equal ground - I have something I call the SFG Roulette that I use to choose the maps I mod and is decently randomized to level the playing field. This feeling, I'm sure, prevails in the hearts of many mappers, including sometimes myself and especially those whose maps aren't even being modded.
I do what I can.
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

Daru wrote:

The "finished" category sounds great to me. Though, why not just have maps marked as "finished" count toward your max pending count, but still bear that distinction that will get it recognized, as well as an unofficial scoreboard.
that would essentially cap the number of "Finished" maps you could have at some point and since they wouldn't grave it could get to be a problem. this would be a short term hack kind of solution, not anything that would feasibly last as long as osu does :/
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I approve of the unnoficial scoreboards but not much else, they shouldn't really affect you until ranking still.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
Echo

lukewarmholiday wrote:

You SHOULD ALWAYS be able to FC a map on your first try.(excluding certain unranked extreme maps, but of course, they are unranked.)
I disagree. A (admittedly lost) part of a rhythm game is in fact learning the rhythm of a map. Look at an authentic map like Taisetsu na Mono - it's a great map (imo) but it's definitely not sight-readable.

Or look at most of eyup's earlier maps - they were extremely fun, and definitely NOT sight-readable.

(yes I realise I'm using old maps as an example, maps that most of the people around have probably never heard of >.>)
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I think the community will always be split in that regard, but personally I hold sight-readability as a very important factor when I'm mapping.

I guess there are some exceptions, cross time and love fighter are the only 2 exceptions I really have allowed in the time I've played. But they fit the song extremely well to so it's easy to learn.

Things like when a slider will have beats half a beat later right under the endpoint, and then later in the map it will be a full beat later, gets hard to read unless you're really paying attention(also depends on BPM+overall dif) and no matter how many times I play it, waiting that extra half beat gnaws at me.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Echo wrote:

I disagree. A (admittedly lost) part of a rhythm game is in fact learning the rhythm of a map. Look at an authentic map like Taisetsu na Mono - it's a great map (imo) but it's definitely not sight-readable.

Or look at most of eyup's earlier maps - they were extremely fun, and definitely NOT sight-readable.

(yes I realise I'm using old maps as an example, maps that most of the people around have probably never heard of >.>)
Give one that's harder to read, please. That one was easy (on Hard, at least). Seriously. First try, 1 50 (though that was a huge fudge up on my part) 2 X's (slight screw-ups on my part, mis-aimed as always), and 19 100s. Damn good for a first try for me. Most maps nowadays I have trouble. Insane? Just as easy to read. Slightly harder to do, though.

Was fun as heck, thanks for linking. ^_^ Will replay when I get back from camping. Wait, I just did. 10 100s 1 50, fake S. This map is actually worth replaying. *gasp* Yet I want to delete 3 GB of the 4 GB in my Songs folder. I wonder what that tells me?

-----back on topic------

Personally, I'm a weirdo as far as mapping goes. I often choose bleh songs on purpose, just to give myself a challenge to try to make the map fun. Often I succeed (except for Heatman, I failed there). For example:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5691

In this case, I had a 64 kps mp3 and a blah song. If I didn't map it how I did, I probably would've got a 7.5 or so. So, I need to pull something out of my ass. Which I did. So naturally, when I made the first difficulty (the hardest one), the people I had test it gave overall good responses. "This is AWESOME! ...now make a difficulty like this that I can pass!" So I did. Bam!

However, I wanted to take this concept, and improve upon it. So, this time I took a video game song I knew people liked, and made this:

viewtopic.php?t=16079

We'll see how this goes. At some points I ditched distance snap just to make it flow better. Only with beats that are a whole beat or farther apart, though. But yeah, I'm doing my best to take this concept as far as I possibly can. Lots of people liked it, after all.

That covers song choice, originality, how difficulty settings can flow together, etc. Also that one should focus on fun, over it being rankable.

Spacing? It depends on whether it feels... *right*. If it feels right, then it's fine. If it feels wrong, then bleh. I personally playtest my maps to death. I'm weird that way.

Hitsounds can make a difference. All I gotta say about that.

I've noticed that plenty of people don't increase their slider velocity much, if at all, on the hardest setting. I don't get why. If you're using circle size 5, I recommend 1.6 minimum, so you can use .8x snap and not have the circles overlap. 1.8 for 4, 2.0 for 3 (I prefer 2.4 - 2.6, but then again I'm a jerk). Slider velocity can make a huge difference.

.BPM changes? I only like changes if the BPM in the song itself actually, you know, changes.

Small repeating sliders? Eh, give me at least 1 beat afterwards to recover. >.<;

That should cover everything. Too many mappers go in with the wrong mentality, so do some modders. Mappers should go in with the mentality that they want their map to be the best possible, and to consider every single suggestion that modders give and see if it works. Modders should be out to make the map the best it can be. I've noticed some modders only point out what is technically incorrect.

I would like to know what you dislike about the map (not the song), sorry. That kind of info can help a lot.

'Night, will be back on Wednesday. Hope to see this discussion make more progress by then. I like the "finished" idea BTW. I would totally use that on Kaze. Though it probably wouldn't work well in the end, so I take that back.

EDIT: To clarify, my stance on creativity and originality is that the idea doesn't really matter, it's the execution. So you can have a great idea, but make a bad map. You can also have an overdone idea but make an excellent map, just because it was executed perfectly and other versions of this idea was executed poorly. Things like that. Execution > originality and creativity for sure, though they help. I don't use them at all, I don't think, though. Not sure about that one.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
Echo
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy

Echo wrote:

Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change?

For example,

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat so that it matches with the lyrics

instead of simply

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat
Yes. I doubt I would change something if I had no idea what the problem was.
Wojjan
806 posts
Joined August 2008
Wojjan
What are your views and understanding of "originality" and "creativity"? Original, when you are the first to do something.
Do you think anyone has the right to call their own works original and creative? Yes, as long as it meets the aforementioned criterium.
Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's work is original and creative? Yes, if that person notices the original work in question meets the criterium
How important is beatspacing to you? Most important
Do you think spacing has any hold over the rank-worthiness of a map? Yes. Oh god yes. Especially in easier difficulties, spacing needs to be correct.
Similar to above, do you think anyone has the right to call their own spacing "intuitive"? No. That player created the map, and it will feel more intuitive to them than to someone else.
Do you think anyone is qualified to say someone else's map has intuitive spacing?Yes, if that person has tested it and felt that the wwere no significant inconsistencies
Do you think song choice is an important aspect to mapping? Yes. Some music is bad, and thus it makes people less inclined to play the map.
Do you think the song's rhythm dictates the mapping style of the map? Rhythm dictates everything in a rhythm game
Do you think certain song genres will always produce better quality maps than other genres? No.
How do you view the storyboarding aspect of mapping? It is not neccesary, but it can provide a fun feature if used properly
How much of the functionality of storyboarding do you exploit in order to make your map more interesting? A lot.
Does the inclusion of storyboarding make it a better map? Yes, if used properly
Do hitsounds make a map more interesting? Yes.
Do you think hitsounds are a must in any map?Yes.
Do you think hitsounds can be used "badly"?Yes.
Does anyone have the right to say, 'This hitsound won't "work" if you put it on this note."? Yes.
Do you think the numbering of combos is important to the map? Yes.
Does anyone have the right to say, "This combo numbering won't "work"."?Yes.
Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change? Yes.

Do you take combo colouring into account when creating maps?Yes.
How much of a modder's advice and/or suggestions should the mapper take in?All, unless it damages the mappers style
When is it OK to say "no"?If it damages the mappers style
Where do we draw the line between something that must be fixed and something that is only a suggestion? Rhythm mistakes, title, artist and diff names, pattern help, hitsounds | pattern suggestions (See Elise Deauxnim - Simple Melody), vague ideas
Should less experienced mappers listen to more experienced players' or mappers' advice? Yes. That also goes the other way around.
Do you use timing section multipliers?Sometimes, if the song noticably grows silent or slow.
Do you think slowing down/speeding up sliders makes the map more interesting? Only if used properly.
Do you think this is overused? Yes.
Do you like the idea of Kiai Time?No.
Do you think this is overused? Yes.
Should we do away with the approval system and allow anyone and everyone to upload maps into a global database for instant download and play? Why or why not? Maps have mistakes. We need to filter them.

Here's a question: Do you feel the need for further development of the other game modes?
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
Echo
Do I really need to edit a "why?" to the end of every "do you think" question? >.>
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

Echo wrote:

Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change?

For example,

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat so that it matches with the lyrics

instead of simply

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat
I would give an explanation the first time, but if the problem recurs, only write it out twice and then drop it to save me typing time - they already know whats wrong they dont need to read it five times either
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

Echo wrote:

I disagree. A (admittedly lost) part of a rhythm game is in fact learning the rhythm of a map. Look at an authentic map like Taisetsu na Mono - it's a great map (imo) but it's definitely not sight-readable.

Or look at most of eyup's earlier maps - they were extremely fun, and definitely NOT sight-readable.

(yes I realise I'm using old maps as an example, maps that most of the people around have probably never heard of >.>)
agree'd. also i wouldn't call those old maps, i'd call them original <_<

you should not have to sight read in this game as much as following the rythm. this is after all a rythm game....


Echo wrote:

Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change?

For example,

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat so that it matches with the lyrics

instead of simply

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat
i take it that when a mod simply puts "00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat" one should be able to understand what they mean. however i think its much better if they would add a little explanation.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Echo wrote:

Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change?

For example,

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat so that it matches with the lyrics

instead of simply

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat
I usually do that, so yes. It's so annoying to see, say, "Remove combo" or "Add new combo" with a bunch of ^'s with no explanation given. Same with "move 2 grids up". In some cases I can see why, other times I don't know why and I just get annoyed.

Also, a comment just saying, "WHAT?!?!?" doesn't help either. Even when 10 people do it in a row and I adjust/redo the part after each comment (has seriously happened). XP
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Gabi wrote:

agree'd. also i wouldn't call those old maps, i'd call them original <_<

you should not have to sight read in this game as much as following the rythm. this is after all a rythm game....
Most old maps had neither clear/consistant rhythm or sight reading ability, and I must disagree I don't like eyup's maps at all :U

A lot of old maps feel like a chore to beat(I've gone through beatmap packs up to 18), I'd rather embrace good use of jumps to add flavor to a map over annoying tricks and underspacing. Crazy Loop had a bunch of over spacing and irregularities but everything flowed nice.

Echo wrote:

Another question here - do you think each and every mod comment should also include a proper explanation for the change?

For example,

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat so that it matches with the lyrics

instead of simply

00:12:34 (5,6,7) - move these beats forward 1/4 beat
You should always try, but some maps have so many problems a huge modpost is necessary and it would be tedious to go through explaining everything.
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock
Being able to FC a map on the first try is a terrible standard. It precludes maps with any amount of challenge to veteran players. I personally go with, "after about 2 plays/auto playthroughs, I can understand what's going on". Even Taisetsu Na Mono fits that description.

Repeating sliders are often abused because people think "there are a lot of fast notes here, so I have no choice but to use sliders, since you have to map to every note".

As for modding, if I notice it, it's more than a suggestion unless stated otherwise. The point of modding is to correct things that you find wrong, and as a BAT I like to think I have a pretty good sense of right and wrong in beatmaps. I'm open to any debate about my modding, though, so any mapper can justify themselves with regards to any of my changes, and I may or may not accept their explanation. However, I'm not going to justify every single thing I point out. If I think my logic for the change may be hard to follow, I'll often explain myself, but I would hope users can figure out the justification for most changes themselves.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
By should be FCable on first try, I mean pretty much just what you stated cheese, but there shouldn't be any snags like a slider lasting too long/coming early, alternating between notes coming a half beat after the end of a slider and a full beat(when both are placed under the endpoint), general nonsense that you have repeat just because it feels unnatural/odd.

on my Mysterious Mountain/Witches ball map is really where I tried to put this idea to use, a majority of us wont be able to FC first try but there are no real big snags that should keep you.

It's trying to balance what's fun and what's just bullshit. Cross Time is one of my favorite maps despite its irregularities but there are still parts I think were mapped poorly.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

lukewarmholiday wrote:

By should be FCable on first try, I mean pretty much just what you stated cheese, but there shouldn't be any snags like a slider lasting too long/coming early, alternating between notes coming a half beat after the end of a slider and a full beat(when both are placed under the endpoint), general nonsense that you have repeat just because it feels unnatural/odd.

on my Mysterious Mountain/Witches ball map is really where I tried to put this idea to use, a majority of us wont be able to FC first try but there are no real big snags that should keep you.

It's trying to balance what's fun and what's just bullshit. Cross Time is one of my favorite maps despite its irregularities but there are still parts I think were mapped poorly.
Cross Time was mapped by heart. i doubt anyone knew back then what spacing consistensy meant, but it still has the rythm which is great. look at how many peopel fc'd cross time using the rythm compared to todays maps where some are just mapped so no one should be able to fc.

could you please give an example of a map that has such bullshit sliders patterns you are speaking off and then compare it to your map cause im quite slow and don't understand what you mean.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Yes yes, I know how cross time was mapped thank for this valuable info.

Off the top of my head... I think Nightmare - The World Gladii's diff has a slider like that which still trips me up.(It's also a good map showing how you don't have to have 100% distance snap etc etc to be readable.)

Maps like agony are hard as hell but I can still call it FCable on first try(aside from the slider speeds tripping you up first time, but that's what replays are for), once you have the rhythm of the map down there isn't much to trip you up(except one section that's underspaced, but with the rythm of the map I didn't even notice it).
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