As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.

I've always wanted to discuss this!

There was a lot of controversy before regarding the use of squiggle sliders.
The idea behind them is that it slows the slider down while creating a visual cue, often to add emphasis to a part. As long as the squiggles were consistent and the slider moved at a relatively constant speed throughout, it behaved very much like a slider slowed down with an inheriting section (actually, with the added visual squiggles it was easier to read in a lot of maps).

The current issue here is not the use of squiggles, but the use of them to slow down the slider in the middle of it, not consistently like previously used in this same map.
The problem with speed changing sliders like this one is the potential trouble it gives to readability. A sudden slider speed change can really throw off the player, so it needs to be handled with care.
In this particular example, the slider is set up very specifically. It starts off normal speed, and changes speed on slider ticks. Because of its change of speed on slider ticks and the way the slider is positioned, it is actually quite feasible to discern where the slider is changing its speed (the slider ticks being directly on the places where the squiggle starts and stops). If needed, an example of this technique being used would be in the map With a Dance Number at 01:03:226.

I feel that the current rule we have now doesn't take into consideration the visual cues and slider tick indicators that mappers put into their sliders to ease readability. I'm really happy to discuss this issue here as it has been bugging me for a long while.

EDIT: to reply to post made while I was typing

those wrote:

As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.

I don't fully agree with this. Wishy was stating that these are readable by some others, which means that the others were able to pick up on the cues presented by it.
I remember my first experience running into circles directly placed under slider ends. I was not paying attention to the approach circle reaching the end of the sliders and I missed it entirely. It wasn't the mapper's fault or unrankable, however, it was just me merely not picking up on a visual queue presented by the game and mapper.

I'm very against sliders like this because in most of cases "wiggle" parts have unreadable speed, and it just very uncomfortable to aim (yes, sometimes it can be done in a way where just impossible to read speed of wiggle part) . Maybe just my opinion, but it estetically looks bad, and for case of this map, wiggle parts even done a bit off the music.

there are actually a lot of of sliders like this

However, current rule isn't clean. Sometimes using "wiggle" parts to emphazire specified part of music may works fine (as long as it not affects speed of slider too much - Charles already give good example). I personally don't think that this rule should be changed, but let's see what people will say.

It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.

i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.

popner wrote:

It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.

Here we go. Exactly the thing I wanted to write in this thread. The problem is that you obviously can concretize the rule, but that is the best way to kill this kind of sliders which may be either good or bad. There're a lot of experienced BATs who can judge these silders on a case-by-case basis.

It should be judged accordingly
Forbidding this kind of slider usage with unbreakable rules can only kill creativity and enthusiasm of mappers
Describing this in the guideline may be the compromise

In agreement with the few people above me -- how about changing the rule into judging this into a case-by-case basis rather than a hard lined "no"?

Scorpiour gets it head on,

Scorpiour wrote:

The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.

The rules shouldn't be black and white, but a colorful book that's open to interpretation when needed.

This slider method shouldn't be abused, that's all. Simple and easy. Unlike Hold Sliders this method to make a Slider has place for many cases.

The hate against wigglies has always been dumb. As long as it isn't a hold slider, it should be allowed.

those wrote:

As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.

I was answering to your argument about being able to read the slider properly, you are the one who got into that area, are you saying your argument nullifies itself?

Just leave it be, if you don't like some specific map using this go and cry about it on each thread, the idea itself works and plays good.

This is shit and should never be allowed.

Ephemeral asks for substantiation:
This is shit. It is utter shit. It is game breaking mechanics. It is shit and should not be allowed. I'm happy to modify osu! code to disallow this shit.

everything i just said is less shit than making sliders using this shit. that's how shit this shit really is.

Don't rank this shit. If anything with shit like this is ranked, PM me so I can unrank it.

well, i think that adequately covers all avenue of possible discourse on the situation.

Why is it shit? What says change slider velocity mid slider is always a bad thing? It just limits mapper freedom by not allowing it on the basis of subjectivity rather than objectivity. It's hard to say that wigglies reduce map quality. I have never said a map is bad, because it has wigglies in it. Some of the best maps in osu! use wigglies. If you ask me physically reducing the slider velocity the natural way reduces mapping quality. Not only does it make boring slider shapes, it is very hard to tell sudden speed changes. If you see a wiggly you know it's a sudden speed change.

In short:

Wigglies = fun
Lowered slider velocities = no fun and hard to read

I don't understand the hatred towards them. It's like taking this wonderful slider design and then saying we can't use it and have to use this less wonderful and flowing slider design. It would be good if there was a good alternative to it (hold note will not be a solution unless you can move along the playing field).

i really, really would not argue with the lead developer when they say a mechanic is gamebreaking. pretty sure those wiggle sliders break or severely fuck with parts of cross-gamemode difficulty generation

I forgot about that. Well you can ignore me if you want on that regard. (Edited it out of my post) But as long as it's not throwing the wiggly message in aimod, it should be allowed right?

In my opinion, it very depends on each map. In this case, I think it's very fine, it's at the END of the song, and there 1 1/2 ticks break between this slider and the next one. I don't really think any of you would really have problems with reading it.

Mapping is cool, because of the different things you can try out, so why not fully using it? Okay, you might end up in a combo break, but after all, you've got it and pass it without any further problems.

Just some thoughts about it, I don't wanna argue against anybody.

Go ahead and use this shit, but don't try and get it ranked.
Keep in mind I'm just stating my opinion. A very strong one, but still only my opinion.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28107

o_o?

There really are a LOT of maps that actually use this and many are on the "best of 201X" compilations, so yeah people like that. x)

Also, breaking the game mechanics is a really common way to get... new cool mechanics.

So I'm guessing this means that we can say good night to any val map, best of 2011, a lot of charles maps, as well as a lot of various other maps that use this technique in a way to fit the music.

Goodbye, shaking sliders. You had a good run.

Whoever cares amend the wiki

Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread

Scorpiour wrote:

i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.

+1

smartest comment in the entire thread

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread

Or just don't rank them so that there's no risk of people losing points over them.

Ephemeral wrote:

[...] into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria [...]

approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.

YGOkid8 wrote:

approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.

Thus idea is awesome, but... why do we need approved 2.0 while we can just re-adjust rules to the current approval category?

But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..

When it comes to that there is a new category with a warning pin - I STRONGLY hope that these diffs will not count to any statistic for example rank

Irreversible wrote:

But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..

The obvious solution would be to have the mapper reconstruct the slider, in a manner which is much more obvious and... Well, has a bit more motion. It can still be a tight wiggle without looking like a sluggish python trying to swallow a boar.

D33d wrote:

Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.

When you talk about readability you are talking about skill, that slider which those considers unreadable is readable to me.

This whole thread is just idiotic, pretty much all popular/good maps DO manipulate slider speed with anchors/curves in one way or another, a lot of them don't really have any considerable impact on the way you play them so you don't care/notice it. Any "V" shaped slider (using an anchor) is actually having it's speed manipulated, there is kind of a slow down when you reach the bottom/top part of it and then it accelerates again, yet nobody is talking about those. Wanna guess why's that? It's because you don't have trouble understanding them and feel that they play fine, on the other hand harder to read sliders feel bad because you can not read them/understand them/get them right on the first play without relying on memory.

This whole thread is about an issue that's completely skill related.

Adding a "Free" category where you can get maps ranked without much trouble (aka no stupid rules/guidelines being a problem) + no need of proper diff spread would be awesome.

It's completely the player's fault and not the map's fault if you combo break on such a slider. All sane non-hold slider wigglies are sight-readable.

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread

Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.

Soaprman wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread

Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.

^

Most of my maps would probably fall into that category w

erm, that was what i meant. i was only drawing attention to the already existing approval category.

So, the fact they were USED A LOT, IN AN EFFECTIVE MANNER, THAT PLAYER LIKE, do not count anything?
Disallowing things because they "generally won't work" is dumb, really, really, dumb.
Especially putting this kind of technique as "approved", since this is ... "kinda" simple to play and, especially IF ADEQUATELY used, it's good.

On sight readability... disregarding and not giving a shit to how is used:
-can't you see the slider would be "kinda" bigger?

On other way that's rankable, and was considered to be rankable in the last years... and the rules was to make sliders that "hold" unusable.

Why should we allow a map with one unrankable slider to be in a new category instead of requiring the user to change said slider?

Is it about a single slider with different velocities along it? If yes, then it's clearly a no-no and must be avoided.

But... Some songs - specially Rock'n'Roll ones - have some spetacular Guitar noises for which sliders with a single wiggle in the START are fitting so tight. Newly, if there's no such guitar noises, these kind of sliders are a no-no.

Happily, it NOT depends on player's skill, since everyone is able to learn and do it -- unless the blind ones.

In fact, the rule would be changed in a way it forbids abuses on such things, instead of solely forbiding all and accept nothing like. In general, it would be good if rules would rely on real commonsense instead in simply forbidance as some government used do.

Such rules are complex, thence BATs are needed. If rules was simple, the system itself could implement and enforce them automatically, just like transactions from/to/between Bank accounts.

Well, they are saying that slowing sliders by making it "vibrate" is unrankable.
But "vibrato" use was arleady discussed in past as usable.

When you make it "vibrate" to such an extreme that you cannot see the clear path of the slider border and/or it changes the speed of the slider drastically is when it is called into question.

I know that it's an "higher frequency" vibrato.
But the use of those kind of sliders COMPLETELY depend on the song.
It wasn't deemed as "unrankable" when we made the rule, as the rule was made to prevent hold sliders done with slideranchors and burais-like slider.
And it doesn't have problems when played, depending on the song, so you can at most change/add a guideline to prevent it.

Think bigger, Haku. Remember, clear path. Those are so compressed that you can't tell if they're going to be slow downs or not.

That first one's dire. Even with the width, it's still pretty damn ambiguous--in fact, I just noticed that it's part of a longer slider, which makes it even more atrocious. The second one would be somewhat easy to anticipate by sight, but it'd still be better to make the wobble more pronounced.

I think it is pretty obvious that those sliders are going to slow down. The top one looks like it would bring the flow to a halt. It would throw off the rhythm because the slider starts uncompressed. The experience wouldn't be unlike a slow down. You know it's going to slow down, but you can't really judge how slow it will be until you play it. The second one is the same thing, only it's better than a regular slow down slider. You can actually tell it's going to slow down and can prepare for it. I'm not a fan of chaining regular speed sliders with slowed down sliders. That slider velocity better be decently fast or pattern 2 would play poorly.

I would prefer at least 2 forward grid 4 units per slider point.

It depend mostly on the music, that type of slider can be funny or awful if the music do or not hint it's gonna vibrate. Like this the compression is about 10-20% ( the slider is a bit shorter than normal, but a bit more fatter than other sliders ) 2x1-3x1-2x2 grid 4 zig-zag vibrate slower (are are even more fatter). In fact, if the slider is arleady slow, the vibrato do effect the graphic, but not that much the length (in case it's used in easies, the speed change is barely noticeable, usually); differently, when used in harder difficulties it's actually noticeable, but harder difficulties player are supposed to see the slider is fattier.

It shouldn't be prohibited, it have to be controlled on a case-to-case basis by different kind of modders and still, it was considered rankable with this rule (that prohibited going back and forth on the same place to "slow" or following abnormal waypoints placement that slowed part of the slider)
I usually use it when it can be used, and since I didn't map that much lately ( university exams, I started to sing, etc ) and especially, I didn't map many songs that would accept that kind of sliders.

I fully agree with you, HakuNoKaemi ^^ and as an addendum, imho tbh it should be under discretion of BAT team, since they are the advanced ones that are capable of decide such things.

FYI, regardless of the outcome of this discussion, historical maps won't be unranked.

As a mapper, there're a lot of places in the music where I've thought, "man, a squiggly slider here would be really cool and fit really well with the music."

But as a player, I've yet to see a compressed slider that was fun to play; they always make me wonder "how hard will this slider shake?" and trying to guess the "effective" slider velocity.

It only gets worst if only part of the slider is shaking, especially on the first playthrough, when I don't actually know the music at all so I can't predict when the transition happens.

Basically, I'm against it because while it looks cool and is interesting to watch, it's really annoying to play.

Also, when I think of "wiggles", I think of ones where each wiggle is distinct and visible, so you can clearly follow the slider path. These are fine.
e.g.


Compare that to the last example from Alarido, where it shakes 3-4 times in 1 "bump"; I don't think that one would be okay.

hello guys......i'm feel sorry if i make a trouble on this thread or because my broken language

but in my opinion if the rythm is suit with the song...it can be tolerate but at least try to change the manipulate slider...if we found any manipulate slider again...it would be great for unrank

but if we found the suspect do this again..it's nice to give a punishment for his/her account standing

that's my opinion...sorry for any mistakes

leave my opinion here...

Oh well, some of these kinds of sliders may be unreadable - yes, but they will seldom occur to an experience mapper.

Also, I have a lot of top-quality maps which have the same slider patterns. Here's an example.
osu.ppy.sh/s/46733 (mapped by Charles445): this is one of the best symmetrical maps ever, so does the sliders. Some sliders' velocity is changed, however, the sliders fit the song much better (especially played with the whistle hitsounds!).

So my opinion is: It should never be a rule(becoming a guideline may make sense), but a BAT can refuse to give a bubble due to the wrong use of such sliders(if the sliders can't fit the song). I mean, the using of such sliders should be discussed on a map itself, not the whole mapping.

Current rule and exposition handles this well enough. Denying.