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[Rule Change] Manipulating slider speeds with anchors

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those


The above image is one of the \unacceptable\ sliders found in a recent map. Currently the ranking criteria reads:
Slider anchors/nodes must not be used to manipulate slider speeds (whether they are normal nodes or red ones). Using extra nodes to make a slider "wiggle" is usually fine, but using so many that the slider gets scrunched up (which also makes the sliderball go crazy) or become a "hold slider" is abuse of the hitobject's intended use and is not allowed. AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) will also point out sliders that move in an "abnormal" way, so make sure to check that if you're unsure of a slider.
A different mapping approach could have avoided this issue entirely, and unranking and changing sections of the map can leave this rule unchanged. However, since we don't take nicely to unranks for whatever reason, I want to resolve this within a week, since the deemed appropriate unranking time slot amounts to one week after a map has been ranked.

As a first argument:
If implementing multi-velocity sliders was the right course of action for the game, the editor would have been programmed to apply slider velocity changes to sliders spanning different timing sections. Slider ticks would have been able to tell the player how to play, but this was not done not because it's not possible, but because multi-velocity sliders is not the right course of action for the game, and thus the rule should stand and the map should be unranked.

Please discuss how this rule can be changed - else, the above mentioned map will be unranked for further modding.
Wishy
The fact that the game lacks some feature doesn't work as an argument against something users have found a way to do. I find the fact that you can somehow use "multi-speed" sliders cool, there are a LOT of maps where this happens and I don't see anyone whining about it, I even recall some cases where a slider kind of starts being a hold note and then plays like a slider, and I don't feel that's wrong at all, it's actually quite cool. Actually, why not make a feature request asking for this? It's been proven years ago that this kind of sliders we are talking about DO work when used properly.

By the way, you ARE able to properly read the slider even without ticks, the fact that you couldn't doesn't mean it can't be done.
Topic Starter
those
As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.
Charles445
I've always wanted to discuss this!

There was a lot of controversy before regarding the use of squiggle sliders.
The idea behind them is that it slows the slider down while creating a visual cue, often to add emphasis to a part. As long as the squiggles were consistent and the slider moved at a relatively constant speed throughout, it behaved very much like a slider slowed down with an inheriting section (actually, with the added visual squiggles it was easier to read in a lot of maps).

The current issue here is not the use of squiggles, but the use of them to slow down the slider in the middle of it, not consistently like previously used in this same map.
The problem with speed changing sliders like this one is the potential trouble it gives to readability. A sudden slider speed change can really throw off the player, so it needs to be handled with care.
In this particular example, the slider is set up very specifically. It starts off normal speed, and changes speed on slider ticks. Because of its change of speed on slider ticks and the way the slider is positioned, it is actually quite feasible to discern where the slider is changing its speed (the slider ticks being directly on the places where the squiggle starts and stops). If needed, an example of this technique being used would be in the map With a Dance Number at 01:03:226.

I feel that the current rule we have now doesn't take into consideration the visual cues and slider tick indicators that mappers put into their sliders to ease readability. I'm really happy to discuss this issue here as it has been bugging me for a long while.

EDIT: to reply to post made while I was typing

those wrote:

As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.
I don't fully agree with this. Wishy was stating that these are readable by some others, which means that the others were able to pick up on the cues presented by it.
I remember my first experience running into circles directly placed under slider ends. I was not paying attention to the approach circle reaching the end of the sliders and I missed it entirely. It wasn't the mapper's fault or unrankable, however, it was just me merely not picking up on a visual queue presented by the game and mapper.
Kodora
I'm very against sliders like this because in most of cases "wiggle" parts have unreadable speed, and it just very uncomfortable to aim (yes, sometimes it can be done in a way where just impossible to read speed of wiggle part) . Maybe just my opinion, but it estetically looks bad, and for case of this map, wiggle parts even done a bit off the music.

there are actually a lot of of sliders like this

However, current rule isn't clean. Sometimes using "wiggle" parts to emphazire specified part of music may works fine (as long as it not affects speed of slider too much - Charles already give good example). I personally don't think that this rule should be changed, but let's see what people will say.
popner
It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.
Scorpiour
i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
tiper

popner wrote:

It is still a case by case issue. I find that many maps use this wisely, like 0108's maps. If you can't prove that all this kind of slider are bad use then why make a rule to forbid it? Most maps that use over 3.0x SV sucks, so are we going to forbid 3.0+x SV? No. This is a silimar case.

If you find a map use terrible sliders, tell the mapper that "You think the slider is terrible", not "The rule says the slider is terrible". Please think more about what BATs are exist for.
Here we go. Exactly the thing I wanted to write in this thread. The problem is that you obviously can concretize the rule, but that is the best way to kill this kind of sliders which may be either good or bad. There're a lot of experienced BATs who can judge these silders on a case-by-case basis.
Zero__wind
It should be judged accordingly
Forbidding this kind of slider usage with unbreakable rules can only kill creativity and enthusiasm of mappers
Describing this in the guideline may be the compromise
dkun
In agreement with the few people above me -- how about changing the rule into judging this into a case-by-case basis rather than a hard lined "no"?

Scorpiour gets it head on,

Scorpiour wrote:

The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
The rules shouldn't be black and white, but a colorful book that's open to interpretation when needed.
Stefan
This slider method shouldn't be abused, that's all. Simple and easy. Unlike Hold Sliders this method to make a Slider has place for many cases.
TheVileOne
The hate against wigglies has always been dumb. As long as it isn't a hold slider, it should be allowed.
Wishy

those wrote:

As soon as you integrate "player skill" into your argument, it nullifies it entirely.
I was answering to your argument about being able to read the slider properly, you are the one who got into that area, are you saying your argument nullifies itself?

Just leave it be, if you don't like some specific map using this go and cry about it on each thread, the idea itself works and plays good.
peppy
This is shit and should never be allowed.

Ephemeral asks for substantiation:
This is shit. It is utter shit. It is game breaking mechanics. It is shit and should not be allowed. I'm happy to modify osu! code to disallow this shit.

everything i just said is less shit than making sliders using this shit. that's how shit this shit really is.
peppy
Don't rank this shit. If anything with shit like this is ranked, PM me so I can unrank it.
Ephemeral
well, i think that adequately covers all avenue of possible discourse on the situation.
TheVileOne
Why is it shit? What says change slider velocity mid slider is always a bad thing? It just limits mapper freedom by not allowing it on the basis of subjectivity rather than objectivity. It's hard to say that wigglies reduce map quality. I have never said a map is bad, because it has wigglies in it. Some of the best maps in osu! use wigglies. If you ask me physically reducing the slider velocity the natural way reduces mapping quality. Not only does it make boring slider shapes, it is very hard to tell sudden speed changes. If you see a wiggly you know it's a sudden speed change.

In short:

Wigglies = fun
Lowered slider velocities = no fun and hard to read

I don't understand the hatred towards them. It's like taking this wonderful slider design and then saying we can't use it and have to use this less wonderful and flowing slider design. It would be good if there was a good alternative to it (hold note will not be a solution unless you can move along the playing field).
Ephemeral
i really, really would not argue with the lead developer when they say a mechanic is gamebreaking. pretty sure those wiggle sliders break or severely fuck with parts of cross-gamemode difficulty generation
TheVileOne
I forgot about that. Well you can ignore me if you want on that regard. (Edited it out of my post) But as long as it's not throwing the wiggly message in aimod, it should be allowed right?
Irreversible
In my opinion, it very depends on each map. In this case, I think it's very fine, it's at the END of the song, and there 1 1/2 ticks break between this slider and the next one. I don't really think any of you would really have problems with reading it.

Mapping is cool, because of the different things you can try out, so why not fully using it? Okay, you might end up in a combo break, but after all, you've got it and pass it without any further problems.

Just some thoughts about it, I don't wanna argue against anybody.
peppy
Go ahead and use this shit, but don't try and get it ranked.
Keep in mind I'm just stating my opinion. A very strong one, but still only my opinion.
Scorpiour
Wishy
There really are a LOT of maps that actually use this and many are on the "best of 201X" compilations, so yeah people like that. x)

Also, breaking the game mechanics is a really common way to get... new cool mechanics. :D
Nyquill
So I'm guessing this means that we can say good night to any val map, best of 2011, a lot of charles maps, as well as a lot of various other maps that use this technique in a way to fit the music.

Goodbye, shaking sliders. You had a good run.

Whoever cares amend the wiki
D33d
Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.
Ephemeral
i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Aqo

Scorpiour wrote:

i don't think there's any strong reason to set it as a rule. The existence of BAT is to judge these kinda cases.
+1

smartest comment in the entire thread
D33d

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Or just don't rank them so that there's no risk of people losing points over them. :P
YGOkid8

Ephemeral wrote:

[...] into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria [...]
approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.
Kodora

YGOkid8 wrote:

approved 2.0? we can put stuff like tag maps, jubeat authentics or whatever else into this category too.
Thus idea is awesome, but... why do we need approved 2.0 while we can just re-adjust rules to the current approval category?
Irreversible
But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..
Itachi_Uchiha
When it comes to that there is a new category with a warning pin - I STRONGLY hope that these diffs will not count to any statistic for example rank
D33d

Irreversible wrote:

But if it has like only 1 of those sliders, does it really have to be approved? That sounds rather .. weird

You could just put a warning in the begin or something..
The obvious solution would be to have the mapper reconstruct the slider, in a manner which is much more obvious and... Well, has a bit more motion. It can still be a tight wiggle without looking like a sluggish python trying to swallow a boar.
Wishy

D33d wrote:

Isn't the point to, you know, create a tight wiggle which is actually readable? That sort of thing's cool, but making a slider which thickens ever so slightly can often be incredibly ambiguous.
When you talk about readability you are talking about skill, that slider which those considers unreadable is readable to me.

This whole thread is just idiotic, pretty much all popular/good maps DO manipulate slider speed with anchors/curves in one way or another, a lot of them don't really have any considerable impact on the way you play them so you don't care/notice it. Any "V" shaped slider (using an anchor) is actually having it's speed manipulated, there is kind of a slow down when you reach the bottom/top part of it and then it accelerates again, yet nobody is talking about those. Wanna guess why's that? It's because you don't have trouble understanding them and feel that they play fine, on the other hand harder to read sliders feel bad because you can not read them/understand them/get them right on the first play without relying on memory.

This whole thread is about an issue that's completely skill related.

Adding a "Free" category where you can get maps ranked without much trouble (aka no stupid rules/guidelines being a problem) + no need of proper diff spread would be awesome.
TheVileOne
It's completely the player's fault and not the map's fault if you combo break on such a slider. All sane non-hold slider wigglies are sight-readable.
Soaprman

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
GoldenWolf

Soaprman wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think the best approach is to delegate maps with features like these into a "free" category with a warning pinned to them that they exhibit techniques and features not normally allowed by the ranking criteria: aka they have a high chance of being bad. this would open up a whole new can of worms, though. maybe a topic for a different thread
Just posting to +1 this idea, don't mind me.
^

Most of my maps would probably fall into that category w
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