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[Proposal - osu!taiko] Standardizing "Beginner" level difficulties.

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Topic Starter
radar
I've been considering writing something along these lines ever since I first saw these difficulties pop up. However, now that more and more of them have been ranked inconsistently/unnecessarily (and after being reminded of this in the modding hub), I'm finally going to try and do something about it.

Here are the two basic problems with how Beginners are handled in taiko currently for those unaware:

1. Difficulty names across different sets are inconsistent (Beginner, Shokyuu, Shoshinsha all used)

2. Beginner level difficulties are added to sets which definitely do not require them, as often Kantan's can suffice

Okay, so with 1, the solution I see is to vote on 1 diffname and stick with it, use it in wording on the "alternate difficulty names" section of the wiki and on the RC tidbit in section 2. Its been brought to my attention though that "Shokyuu" is probably the best diffname to go with, as that refers to "beginner" in the context of a thing rather than a person (Shoshinsha). I don't think I really need to go into why Beginner doesn't make sense considering the other lower difficulties.

As for 2, I'd consider adding a blurb at the bottom of the Kantan RC, similarly to how the lowest difficulty futsuu guidelines are placed that would read something (insanely rough draft) as follows:


"In the circumstance where your mapset is more difficult than usual due to either a more dense/higher BPM song, you may consider creating a Shokyuu difficulty using harsher versions of the Kantan guidelines above."


The intention of something like this would be not only to keep the diffnames consistent when the difficulties are used, but give some sort of reasoning as to why you'd make a difficulty like this so that newer mappers don't use them haphazardly. I'd rather not write too much for them either, as they should not be used frequently enough to require a full RC, + Kantan RC is already pretty beginner friendly with a few exceptions (speedcore or something). Looking forward to discussion :D

p.s. i have no idea how to format forum posts
Chromate
opinion
I want Shoshinsha to be standard
+
I also think we must have separate diff rcs for beginner diffs and therefore need to adjust all other diff rcs but thats another topic for another day

(first opinion is minor)
Nifty
I like the idea of making shokyuu merely a part of the kantan RC instead of making it a separate thing so that new mappers dont think shokyuu is necessary for a spread.

Considering the issue of shokyuu being added to sets that don't need them, it isn't an issue at all. Nobody bats an eye at a map having 3 insane difficulties and it's basically the same thing, and there are entire sets that could be considered too easy given their extremely low level of difficulty that people don't really care about. At the end of the day, whether these things are ranked or not is up to the BNs, putting anything in the RC against them would seem unfair.
ikin5050
Simply saying harsher versions of kantan guidelines won't cut it. if beginner diffs are to be officially recognized and moderated they should have their own section in rc
Topic Starter
radar

ikin5050 wrote:

Simply saying harsher versions of kantan guidelines won't cut it. if beginner diffs are to be officially recognized and moderated they should have their own section in rc
I'd say its in the middle ground, I don't think they should be moderated any more than they are now (except for the naming of the difficulty). That bit would more be a guideline of when/how you can go about creating one to help well, guide people



Nifty wrote:

I like the idea of making shokyuu merely a part of the kantan RC instead of making it a separate thing so that new mappers dont think shokyuu is necessary for a spread.

Considering the issue of shokyuu being added to sets that don't need them, it isn't an issue at all. Nobody bats an eye at a map having 3 insane difficulties and it's basically the same thing, and there are entire sets that could be considered too easy given their extremely low level of difficulty that people don't really care about. At the end of the day, whether these things are ranked or not is up to the BNs, putting anything in the RC against them would seem unfair.
Thats fair! Though I still think the few lines I wrote don't particularly work against shokyuu diffs, especially since these would be guidelines and therefore able to be bypassed with sufficient reasoning
Nao Tomori
Shoshinsha dumb shokyuu based

Beginner diffs are stupid and shouldn't exist, don't need to regulate them
Capu
1. Shokyuu

2. I think we should give Shokyuu diffs their own rules and guidelines to follow. Otherwise there will be inconsistencies and I feel like it would be easier for everyone to not leave things too open.

Ideas would be:

(Around 180bpm ofc)
Rules
  1. Patterns faster than 1/1 must not be used
  2. No idea about the swing part


Guidelines
  1. 1/1 patterns should not be longer than 5 notes
  2. Main snapping should consist of mostly 4/1 or slower, 2/1 or 1/1 can be used occasionally
  3. There should be at least 1/1 distance between a spinner and its preceding note
  4. Rest moment should stay the same as for a Kantan imo
  5. Slider Velocity changes may not be used (?) Only exception is for BPM changes
  1. Overall Difficulty should be 3 or less
  2. HP should be 7 or more



Those are just general ideas, I just think it would help to include it properly with its own rules. "If a Shokyuu is used as the lowest difficulty [...]"
Arach
First, yes, finally it's time to do something for them.
Then yeah Shokyuu definitely seems to be more appropriate for me too.

For what concerns the usage of Shokyuu diff, I honestly agree with what Nifty said: it's not an issue if people add them to their sets, as long as it's mapped correctly and with consciousness.

Also I think that including it into Kantan's guideline would be a step forward for sure but
1. One day it will not be enough anymore and a full regulations is still going to be needed so another proposal should be rise and I think that it's worth doing things with completeness since the beginning starting already with the full regulation
2. It would become quite confusionary for those who are not really into mapping yet to see that only taiko mode and only Kantans have something regarding another difficulty in the regulations (because at this point for completeness and consistency it should be considered also to add for example "guidelines for Lite Oni" in Oni's regulations and I do not think that they have to be treated the same way, Shokyuu diffs actually need their own space while Lite Onis don't need that kind of regardings at all in my opinion). Shokyuu shouldn't be considered as a "Lite Kantan", but as a difficulty on it's own.

Regarding practical opinions about possible regulations, I think that your concern that separating Shokyuu from Kantan's guidelines would cause people to think it's mandatory for a set can actually be fixed like this:

Shokyuu
This difficulty has beginner players as a target and it is not mandatory for the building of a spread (totally facultative).

Rules
[Insert snapping rules here (I like Capu's proposal about them)]
• Shokyuu cannot be added to a set without the presence of a Kantan difficulty beforehand.

Guidelines
• You can consider to add this difficulty to your set in a circumstance in which your mapset is overall more difficult due for example to either a more dense/higher BPM map.
• You can consider to add this diff to your set if your Kantan is on the edge of its guidelines to provide an easier approach to the song.
[Other snapping, od, sv guidelines...]

In my opinion this can be a nice solution to be discussed and eventually improved.
(Sorry for bad wording I just woke up)
Roger
I don't think it needs to be regulated. It had been proposed similarly before in here.

It's up for the BN to judge whether beginner difficulty is necessary/fit in the map spread or only as difficulty bloat.

I do agree it would be better for consistent naming usage of beginner difficulty in taiko as currently it is unnecessarily many different naming. It would be weird though for this to be added to wiki diffnaming since other modes don't include them.
Topic Starter
radar

Roger wrote:

I don't think it needs to be regulated. It had been proposed similarly before in here.

It's up for the BN to judge whether beginner difficulty is necessary/fit in the map spread or only as difficulty bloat.

I do agree it would be better for consistent naming usage of beginner difficulty in taiko as currently it is unnecessarily many different naming. It would be weird though for this to be added to wiki diffnaming since other modes don't include them.
This is pretty much my exact thoughts, though id argue we can add it without other modes having it too just off of the virtue that we're basically the only mode ranking these diffs as of recent times. Another reason why I dont want to regulate these diffs is that I already know people dont want them regulated. I just want a small line of text and a consistent diffname.

Arach wrote:

Also I think that including it into Kantan's guideline would be a step forward for sure but
1. One day it will not be enough anymore and a full regulations is still going to be needed so another proposal should be rise and I think that it's worth doing things with completeness since the beginning starting already with the full regulation
2. It would become quite confusionary for those who are not really into mapping yet to see that only taiko mode and only Kantans have something regarding another difficulty in the regulations (because at this point for completeness and consistency it should be considered also to add for example "guidelines for Lite Oni" in Oni's regulations and I do not think that they have to be treated the same way, Shokyuu diffs actually need their own space while Lite Onis don't need that kind of regardings at all in my opinion). Shokyuu shouldn't be considered as a "Lite Kantan", but as a difficulty on it's own.
I disagree, I don't really see any issue with how these difficulties are regulated for the most part, and thus I don't think they should be given any unnecessary rules. If they have a whole section in the RC, people will feel as though theyre required for a spread which is very far from the actual truth.

For the 2nd point, I believe it can be worded/placed on the RC in a way to where it wont become confusing. Lite Oni type diffs are much more underused and niche which is why they arent regulated nor mentioned, but shokyuu's have gotten to the point where they kinda need to be mentioned somewhere.
Lumenite-
i've written about this before on a similar thread started by raiden, so i'll just re-post what i wrote there

incandescence wrote:

i have no idea what the addition of a beginner difficulty does for anyone, are kantans all of a sudden not easy enough after the 13 years this game (and 19 years for authentic TnT) has existed? these rules and guidelines for an entirely optional difficulty don't seem to change anything that a kantan provides other than serving for unnecessary simplification of a song. kantans serve the purpose of "learning the color changes" in, at minimum, 90% of cases, and even when kantans are more difficult than usual it's usually because the song calls for such a difficulty.

i'm really not sure why beginner difficulties exist in taiko, and i think adding a whole section to the RC for them when they are not required and hardly necessary is quite confusing
h3oCharles
agree that Shokyuu should be as a separate diff in RC
DakeDekaane
Against adding Beginner/Shokyuu difficulty specific RC.

Kantan RC is more than enough to define the easiest difficulty in a set, and they do a good job at it.

If something, we should treat this difficulty in the Kantan spectrum, as we already do with the multiple difficulties that has been established in the Inner Oni spectrum (Inner Oni, Hell Oni, custom names, etc.). The more we could do is standardize the difficulty name.

Edit:
About the existence of Beginner difficulties, they shouldn't be a common thing, are Kantan difficulties becoming harder to the point we need a lower difficulty? Many of us have already seen comments about how Kantans are 'dumb' or not even following the song due its simplicity. Jokes or not, this should be a point about the case against defining Beginner difficulties in RC.
Topic Starter
radar
Pmuch agree with dake for reasonings as to why we should definitely not give this its own guidelines
Tyistiana
I basically agree to what Roger and Dake have said here.

Difficulty name standardisation would be good, but specific RC dedicated to Beginner difficulty is kinda unnecessary. In this recent two years and a half, a few cases of Beginner difficulty appears in taiko, and BN and the mapper in this community know how to deal with it so far.

The RC should be "less restrictive" as much as possible. As the problem do not occurred yet, and the tendency that the problem would occurred is extremely low, not having the guidelines would be the better option for now.
Topic Starter
radar
As brought up by a few people, ill try to push for adding "Shokyuu" to the Alternative Difficulty Names section of the wiki, and likely we start using that one only to keep things consistent

i hope everyone would be okay with that owob
Hivie
pushing the diffname for now sounds like a good start, we can maybe bring up the guidelines discussion again when people are more accustomed to the new name

Also I'm probably late but I agree with roger
SilentWuffer
can't say much but my vote for the diff name goes to shokyuu since it's shorter
Hivie
since current popular opinion is to add Shokyuu as an official diffname, should I make a PR that adds it to Widely accepted alternatives in wiki/en/Ranking_Criteria/Difficulty_Naming ? just under beginner
Topic Starter
radar
yes
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