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[resolved] [Proposal/osu!catch] Allow higher-spaced dashes to be paired with hyperdashes in Rains

posted
Total Posts
12
wonjae
768 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
wonjae
I'm only writing this because I have been told that a pattern in my map (here) is deemed unrankble due to the following rule in rains: "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes or any other hyperdashes."

My problem with this is that it restricts the creation of

types of patterns in rains which I don't really think should be the case (especially for maps within the 120-140 bpm are or for maps that are low on object density). The pattern itself isnt hard at all (comparable to a straight line dash or hyperslider which are both currently acceptable in rains currently) and is surrounded by ample time for the player to read it. It feels weird to me atleast that this isnt allowed but hypersliders are allowed to some extent in rains. I propose that the rule be broken up into two, one being a rule that reads "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with any other hyperdashes." and the other being a guideline that reads "Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped SHOULD not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes."

One concern that I know some people might have is that this would allow some pretty hard and jank streams in a rain so i also want to either add a little line below the guideline that says something like "If used, the dash(es) must be used sparingly and must have a basic-spaced gap in between objects consecutive to the pattern." This is to hopefully prevent ppl from using this in the middle of streams.

let me know what u think catch fam squad and if u want more random rc changes click like and subscribe
Last edited by wonjae , edited 1 time in total.
Daletto
Beatmap Nominator
175 posts
Joined December 2015
Daletto
agree with the jae
Liyac
138 posts
Joined October 2014
Liyac
if its used/introduced effectively then i wholeheartedly agree +1
Dea ex machina
535 posts
Joined January 2014
Dea ex machina
liked and subscribed
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
While I can understand the reasoning, I think doing this change as proposed opens way too many possibilities that should be discussed. Whether the pattern is too difficult or not depends on both (1) what comes first: the hyperdash or the dash, and (2) if the second movement is antiflow or not, for a total of 4 combinations.

Regarding (1), I think in almost all cases higher-snapped dash -> higher-snapped HDash would be easier than higher-snapped HDash -> higher-snapped dash. Regarding (2), I think it's obvious that the pattern will be easier if there's no direction change involved.

Therefore, I think it's worth discussing whether we want to potentially allow all four combinations upon BN discretion (entirely moving the rule to guideline), or allowing/limiting certain combinations (which will come with an increase in wordiness, either as conditions to the rule/guideline and/or splitting into multiple rules/guidelines).

Personally, I'm not really fond of the first idea, as it would allow for HDash -> dash with direction change, which would be quite a large difficulty increase. As for the other combinations, I think those that don't involve direction changes would be fine either way, but dash -> HDash with a direction change might be a bit too hard too.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 1 time in total.
wonjae
768 posts
Joined October 2014
Topic Starter
wonjae

ZiRoX wrote:

While I can understand the reasoning, I think doing this change as proposed has quite a few implications that should be discussed. Whether the pattern is too difficult or not depends on both (1) what comes first: the hyperdash or the dash, and (2) if the second movement is antiflow or not, for a total of 4 combinations.

Regarding (1), I think in almost all cases higher-snapped dash -> higher-snapped HDash would be easier than higher-snapped HDash -> higher-snapped dash. Regarding (2), I think it's obvious that the pattern will be easier if there's no direction change involved.

Therefore, I think it's worth discussing whether we want to potentially allow all four combinations upon BN discretion (entirely moving the rule to guideline), or allowing/limiting certain combinations (which will come with an increase in wordiness, either as conditions to the rule/guideline and/or splitting into multiple rules/guidelines).

Personally, I'm not really fond of the first idea, as it would allow for HDash -> dash with direction change, which would be quite a large difficulty increase. As for the other combinations, I think those that don't involve direction changes would be fine either way, but dash -> HDash with a direction change might be a bit too hard too.
Thats actually pretty fair that something like this should be discussed. I know that the slider rule has "The slider path must be simple and easy-to-follow." as a sorta bandaid fix so a clause can potentially be added here as well where the use of a direction change would not be allowed if people would want that
Last edited by wonjae , edited 2 times in total.
GIGACHAD
117 posts
Joined October 2017
GIGACHAD
agree + would also stop the nitpickyness whether smth is a higher-snapped dash or walk even tho its just flow / plays the same like:



(how do i embed an image on the forum help)

edit: i give up i aint no forum wizard just click the link.

edit edit: I DID IT OMG SHOUTOUTS TO WONJAE AND ZIROX
Last edited by GIGACHAD , edited 8 times in total.
Sanyi
236 posts
Joined November 2015
Sanyi
wonjae's image is kinda clumsy when you want to argue for the proposal imo, since when both the dash and the hyper have similar spacing it kinda implicates that the dash is kinda harsh, otherwise both would be dashes.

With that being said I am ok with an adjustment of the ruling if no direction changes in these cases are allowed + we make sure that no unreasonable dash spacing is used (which should be obvious but as I said the image in the introduction post isn't selling it to me, Gigachad's image represents the case much better imo)
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
i agree with this. also agree with sanyi and zirox that
(1) when dash and hdash are chained like this, the pattern should be linear (no direction changes)
(2) spacings shouldnt be unreasonably harsh or combined with antiflow

a good reason to support this is that such patterns are pretty easy to hit, even compared to other patterns typically used in rain (such as this ss/17292747/aea7) so i dont see why it wouldnt be rankable
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
From the discussion in this thread, we can add to the current rule:

Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes or any other hyperdashes.
the following part...

Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes or any other hyperdashes. If higher-snapped hyperdashes are paired with higher-snapped dashes, those cannot involve antiflow and the dash must be used before the hyperdash.
This'd allow the pattern posted by GIGACHAD, but still discourage other combinations that'd make Rains unnecessary hard. Thoughts?
Greaper
Nomination Assessment Team
213 posts
Joined February 2013
Greaper
We've decided to split the rule up instead. Going for the following rule:

Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped must not be used in conjunction with any other hyperdashes.
and guideline:

Hyperdashes that are higher-snapped should not be used in conjunction with higher-snapped dashes. If used those cannot involve antiflow and the dash must be used before the hyperdash.
Changes will be merged in 24~ hours if no complaints come up.

PR https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/10505
Last edited by Greaper , edited 1 time in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
merged
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