https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/124920&start=0

peppy wrote:

I agree to grouping countries which have so few players the country rankings don't hit top 50s. This helps reduce the load of these lookups, actually. A lot. Plus it makes sense and makes it more competitive

Maybe someone could make a list of which countries should be grouped into regions where necessary, and I can change country ranking to regional ranking.

To put it shortly, I would like all of your opinions on what minor countries should be grouped together for this, as a lot of people seem to have mixed views and opinions. Do keep in mind that this will most probably replace your separate country ranking with the regional one. If you wouldn't like that, then do tell why, but provide good reasoning for it. Biased and baseless opinions against are of no value.

The countries must correlate in some way, through language or history.

This is for lesser countries only in order to increase competition within smaller scenes. I can't set an active users limit as this varies on a case to case basis, but those with well below 20k users qualify. I do not know Peppy-kuns opinion on grouping smaller ones with the major, in an example; grouping Russian speaking countries to Russia, but if no other countries correlates then I would like your input on this as well.

Due to confusion, to make it clear, this is to replace this current "Country Ranking" filter with a "Regional Ranking" one for the countries that do get merged.


This will not affect those without a supporter tag nor any of your overall country charts. All this will do is give the smaller countries an option to compare their beatmap specific scores to countries within their region.



Do your best to clearly and orderly provide arguments as to how and why.

As a final summary I will go for majorities vote, but add in the provided arguments if it's not an incredibly one sided opinion.

All and everyones inputs on this are highly appreciated. Thank you in advance for taking your time with this.

Additionally it would be great if you could direct people from your respective country to this thread, as I will need a whole lot of inputs in order to make a reasonable conclusion.

List over countries to group (I probably need more opinions on all of these so I wont mention this separately for each grouping. Don't mind it being messy, I'm working on it.)

Like I'm all for it, but wouldn't this be more fitting in the feature request rather than a separate GD discussion.

Anyways, this could possibly work

Most of Africa in one region. Egypt and South Africa seem to have a decently sized playerbase (and I'm not 100% sure if Egypt is considered an African country is or grouped with the middle east), but there's a lot of other countries that have very few players (Just off the top of my head, Kenya has like 11, Ghana has like 3). It might work best as a "Grouped together until a certain number is reached".

Maybe the Middle East can be grouped (Unless they have a high population of players. ie. Turkey, Egypt, Israel) as well?

Also, territories could also probably be grouped with the country that owns them (ie. Virgin Islands (U.S), French Guiana, possibly Guam, etc) if they're not large enough.

I could provide a huge detailed list of what should be grouped up where, but that'll take some time, and it's mostly because I'm a silly American who doesn't know a lot about smaller European/Asian countries .

If New Zealand is minor enough, I'd have no objections being grouped with Australia. The two country have a long history with each other anyway
also i wonder if it would be worth giving this a sticky

CDFA wrote:

Like I'm all for it, but wouldn't this be more fitting in the feature request rather than a separate GD discussion.

There is a reature request thread for this already, but to get more feedback on this, having it in General Discussion would be more ideal

I put this in GD in order to get more peoples opinions on it. The few who actually browse the feature request forums can't be the only ones to judge a matter like this.

CDFA wrote:

I could provide a huge detailed list of what should be grouped up where, but that'll take some time, and it's mostly because I'm a silly American who doesn't know a lot about smaller European/Asian countries .

The more input the better, but do try to keep to what you know best. I would prefer for people from the actual respective country sticking to their own regions, as chances are you know more about your own and nearby countries.

boat wrote:

New Zealand + Australia

May as well just be Oceania.

wth is Finnland

And add Iceland to Scandinavia region?

Jarby wrote:

boat wrote:

New Zealand + Australia

May as well just be Oceania.

This is a pretty good suggestion actually. I personally have no idea of what Oceania actually is, but from what the wiki page shows a lot of very minor countries could as well be grouped as one under an "Oceania Ranking" region. Thank you for this.

I'd like some more inputs on this as well though, so if anyone from the Oceania region has more inputs; as well as approval of this then shoot.

i think belgium, luxemburg and netherlands can fit as one group, since its often called benelux and it used to be one country aswell.

What am I doing with my life

All countries listed have less than 100 registered players. It'd be pointless to group together largely active groups that are close together (ie. United States and Guam)

Asia could probably be split up to different regions (ie. "Russian Region", "Indonesian Region", "Indian Region", "Chinese/Korean Region"), but this is mostly making general large groups.

I tried making it so countries that are not associated with each other are not grouped together (ie. If a country is near China, it is not grouped with China, as it is not owned by China).

Mya.

I'm all for kicking some Scandinavian ass, merge pls

Might as well merge Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein into one group as they're all german-speaking countries.

BrokenArrow wrote:

Might as well merge Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein into one group as they're all german-speaking countries.

As Germany is fairly big I do believe it would be preferred to merge those smaller ones with eachother, but it's a good suggestion nonetheless. Any more in depth explanations as to how these countries correlate with eachother would be appreciated.

I like this stuff.

Well, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein share the same community channel, the same subboard, also we all speak the same language. Also Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein have not many active players. And the active ones can easily compete with the ones from Germany. Even if Germany has a huge playerbase compared to other countries, I think a merge is justified due to language and community sharing.

This is pretty much comparable with the merge of french speaking countries (even if I disagree in merging NL into FR, because they don't share the community (#french vs. #dutch) that much.

If you have any thoughts about successors of USSR you can leave`em here:
t/143879

Loctav wrote:

SPOILER

Well, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein share the same community channel, the same subboard, also we all speak the same language. Also Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein have not many active players. And the active ones can easily compete with the ones from Germany. Even if Germany has a huge playerbase compared to other countries, I think a merge is justified due to language and community sharing.

This is pretty much comparable with the merge of french speaking countries (even if I disagree in merging NL into FR, because they don't share the community (#french vs. #dutch) that much.

As I do keep a list of the possible minor country groupings excluded from the major ones as well I would like to know if merging Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein without Germany would be reasonable.

Maybe complete africa together?
Or split them a bit. A huge part speaks french and the other english I think (next to their own languages of course but that are the main one I think)

They are full of countries with really low playerbase

I have a question related to my country. How would the merging for Estonia would go?

ShinseinaTenshi wrote:

I have a question related to my country. How would the merging for Estonia would go?

If there is no fit at all then it can unfortunately not be merged, but I'm open for most reasoning and suggestions so do throw anything you got at me. Even if it's a shoddy fit, if both parts agree then a merge with some country is clearly beneficial for everyone. I can unfortunately not provide any reasoning other than what I find through research, but feel free to ask users from your respective country to head this way to help us out.

Well, as much as political wise and how things have been going, Estonia is in pretty good terms with Finland, our language is very similar as well.

Regarding Russia..we were under the soviet union many years ago but as our country got independence. Russians withdrew and went back to Russia with the majority of their people, though there is still a very large portion of russians living in Estonia after the independence and the newer generation of russians. Our secondary language, which is compulsory to learn is Russia, so maybe that has some sort of relation towards it.

Latvia & Lithuania have also been helpful to us and have been helped by Estonia, on political terms it's good but i don't know how it goes in a general matter. Though if to look at it geographically, Estonia is very close to Latvia and Lithuania as well.

I'd appreciate more opinions on this.

When I think of Estonia, I automatically think of Lithuania and Latvia.

But I'm not entirely sure why larger countries need to be merged together.

The main reason the issue was brought up was so small countries could have more users in them rather than just being #1 automatically.

With larger countries with already strong usergroups together, it seems kind of pointless. It'd be like combining Taiwan and Chinese rankings because they both speak chinese.

Estonia's userbase seems large enough at this point to stand as its own entity.

Also, tfw you spend hours making a chart to solve the OP's problems and nobody looks at it </3

ShinseinaTenshi, Estonia is a part of the Baltic States, so that's something.

CDFA wrote:

SPOILER

But I'm not entirely sure why larger countries need to be merged together.

The main reason the issue was brought up was so small countries could have more users in them rather than just being #1 automatically.

With larger countries with already strong usergroups together, it seems kind of pointless. It'd be like combining Taiwan and Chinese rankings because they both speak chinese.

Estonia's userbase seems large enough at this point to stand as its own entity.

Also, tfw you spend hours making a chart to solve the OP's problems and nobody looks at it </3

I am taking a look at it, but yes, as mentioned major countries will preferably not be merged with anything as they got a big enough userbase as it is.

boat wrote:

ShinseinaTenshi, Estonia is a part of the Baltic States, so that's something.

Ah yes, that's true, I completely forgot about that. Completely derped out for a bit.

I'm all for making regional rankings and such, but taking away our initial country ranking lists seems kinda out of place. Why would for instance Norway benefit in any way by losing their osu!pendence? I know we're all young people and we may not share the prejudices or the ideas of national independence and such, but merging countries here and there for the sake of making things simpler is promoting a weird nationalistic sense of unification that does no good in honouring where we come from. Norway will remain Norway, and not a part of Sweden or Denmark. Having a "nordic countries" ranking in addition is all good, but I really doubt most Norwegian players care about Swedish or Danish players, and certainly not Finnish players. If they do, they can always compare and compete using the global rankings.

It would be nice to leave it like this, because I like the variety of the different countries

But maybe there should be a 'together- ranking (like all german-speaking parts, etc)' as well, just to .. have this as well, i hope you get what i mean lol

kriers wrote:

I'm all for making regional rankings and such, but taking away our initial country ranking lists seems kinda out of place. Why would for instance Norway benefit in any way by losing their osu!pendence? I know we're all young people and we may not share the prejudices or the ideas of national independence and such, but merging countries here and there for the sake of making things simpler is promoting a weird nationalistic sense of unification that does no good in honouring where we come from. Norway will remain Norway, and not a part of Sweden or Denmark. Having a "nordic countries" ranking in addition is all good, but I really doubt most Norwegian players care about Swedish or Danish players, and certainly not Finnish players. If they do, they can always compare and compete using the global rankings.

you dont need to share the rankings with other countries if there is no need to, the reason this was brought up was because some countrys are so empty even passing a map will get you a top5 country ranking, if you have plenty of people in your country who can do good on insanes there is no reason to share your country ranking with other countrys

kriers wrote:

and certainly not Finnish players.

damn.

kriers wrote:

SPOILER

I'm all for making regional rankings and such, but taking away our initial country ranking lists seems kinda out of place. Why would for instance Norway benefit in any way by losing their osu!pendence? I know we're all young people and we may not share the prejudices or the ideas of national independence and such, but merging countries here and there for the sake of making things simpler is promoting a weird nationalistic sense of unification that does no good in honouring where we come from. Norway will remain Norway, and not a part of Sweden or Denmark. Having a "nordic countries" ranking in addition is all good, but I really doubt most Norwegian players care about Swedish or Danish players, and certainly not Finnish players. If they do, they can always compare and compete using the global rankings.

This is merely beatmap specific rankings and as such I believe it's pretty justified. You will retain your country specific overall ranks.

silmarilen wrote:

you dont need to share the rankings with other countries if there is no need to, the reason this was brought up was because some countrys are so empty even passing a map will get you a top5 country ranking, if you have plenty of people in your country who can do good on insanes there is no reason to share your country ranking with other countrys

Certainly we're not a lot of people competing for top rankings, but I still think that number is fine. In most cases there can be competition between the players regardless if there are 50 players, or just 2.

A #200 Finnish player would be more interested in seeing who is the best player from his country and not care if there was a Swedish player at #1 of that ranking. We'd have to introduce flags within these regional rankings, so that players can tell apart who is from their country or not.

Obviously no offence to Finland, but for me having grown up in the western coast of Norway, Finland has always felt more distant than Great Britain. (Geographically speaking, Scotland is much closer than Finland from my hometown).

you can't drive from scotland to norway

thelewa wrote:

you can't drive from scotland to norway

I guess that makes China closer than Scotland, then

Please, don't do it. Russians and ukranians don't want to be in one ranking charts. Neither do swiss and german. Nobody wants to share the ranking charts.

this is like exactly the reason why grouping big countries is bad

With countries with less than 100 active players, they won't really care too much about being put into a general group

but when combining really active areas, it's like they don't want to be combined because they already have decent country rankings.

Joyce Cross wrote:

Russians and ukranians don't want to be in one ranking charts.

We will see what will we get from our group in vk.com and our subforum.

Joyce Cross wrote:

Please, don't do it. Russians and ukranians don't want to be in one ranking charts. Neither do swiss and german. Nobody wants to share the ranking charts.

I don't intend to sound rude, but can't quite take an opinion as such from somebody who does not even have the option to use this feature. This will not affect you in any way and should as such not be a concern.

Regardless, as mentioned countless times already, nothing is set in stone but chances are the major countries which do not need to be merged will not.


For those of you who didn't read the op; this will not affect those without a supporter tag nor any of your overall country charts. All this will do is give the smaller countries an option to compare their beatmap specific scores to countries within their region.

silmarilen wrote:

people keep bringing up european countrys, but europe is too active to even be in need of this

This is not true at all, especially considering the other gamemodes as well. This feature will be available not only for standard and is particularly useful for the lesser gamemodes as they got significantly smaller playerbases.

people keep bringing up european countrys, but europe is too active to even be in need of this

pro tip: don't put former yugoslavian countries together.



edit: atleast, iirc slovenia and croatia might work. but most definitely not croatia and bosnia and/or serbia

thelewa wrote:

you can't drive from scotland to norway

You clearly haven't watched Top Gear mate.

Anyway I'm all for an Oceania region rankings, as for Finland I think it'd be alright grouping them with the Baltic countries considering that their language is similar to Estonian. The only problem is that some users, a minority seemingly, might not feel comfortable being included in a ranking system with users of another country. Initially I imagined an EU rankings would be ok, including all nations in the European Union, but there's a shitload of users in that region and it wouldn't be entirely fair to all countries in the region. Also avoid placing Turkey and Greece together.

Posting this here in case laport doesn't notice.

boat wrote:

laport wrote:

Just in case: The Netherlands wouldn't want to be grouped with any other country except for Finland. We get along with Belgium but we're too different (they speak French/Flemming and are roman Catholics, whereas we speak Dutch and are Protestants) and we don't get along with any other EU countries except for Finland.

If you can get people to vouch in on that then it will be noted down as a majorities opinion. Regardless of what country you supposedly get along with, if there is no ethnic correlation then chances are you will not get merged.

i vouch for nl + finland

silmarilen wrote:

i vouch for nl + finland

Provide some reasoning for it. I'm not good at geography but I see zero correlation between you two.

our countries have a history of defending this world from eldritch abominations and safeguarding the sanity of us all

You guys can't forget that the rankings have to do predominantly with geographic location as opposed to how well you get along with the sub-communities of other countries. Place Quebec and France together.

boat wrote:

Metro wrote:

Just in case: Argentina wouldn't want to be grouped with any other country. We get along with Brazil but we're too different and we don't get along with any other SA countries.

Argentina should have enough players for this to not be required anyways.

For the record.

Dutch people have been in a sauna with Finnish people. We have never been in a sauna with Belgian people.

CDFA wrote:

What am I doing with my life

You can put Monaco with France. It's like they are almost French, really.
Same thing for San Marino and Vatican City with Italy, I suppose.

--
Would it be possible to create a "North America" entity with USA, Virgin Islands and Canada? After all, they are very close each other. Otherwise, Canada would be all alone...

Also, a Maghreb entity grouping Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and eventually Lybia and Mauritania would be cool I think.

BRBP wrote:

There's only 10 people from Estonia who have a 4-digit osu! rank, I still don't see how merging Finland with only Estonia would be beneficial to either of us. Nearly 500 in Russia, so I don't see the point in merging them with anyone.

peppy wrote:

I'd like to see the largest groupings possible to allow for actual competitive rankings.

+ Iceland

Opinions?

As far as I know, there aren't a lot of Estonians that are rather active and yeah, there is about 10 people who only have a 4-digit rank on osu!. The majority of maps I play and whenever I have country ranking selected, I mostly see either nobody there or just my own score. I barely see anyone there except sometimes the same 2-6 people. (this is only from my osu!standard pov, I have no idea about taiko, ctb or mania)
There is no point with merging with only Finland, at least I don't see it being any beneficial either.

The area you highlighted on that picture, that area is pretty huge and it would be pretty interesting. If peppy would like to see the largest groupings possible, then I think that's already a good start.

With Iceland, I personally wouldn't mind, though as much as i remember it does have something to do with Denmark + Sweden + Norway back in the old times of history. Other than that i cannot remember anything else.

laport wrote:

Dutch people have been in a sauna with Finnish people. We have never been in a sauna with Belgian people.

bonus info: Estonians have had a war for quite a while with the finnish whenever it comes to sauna + beer, I believe there is more of a competition between our two countries than anywhere when it comes to saunas.

OP, Finland is not part of Scandinavia. It's part of Nordic countries.

But honestly, I don't care what happens to Finland. Just take good care of our lil' bro Estonia.