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[Proposal - Metadata] Add (Game Ver.) markers to official cut versions of video game songs

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19
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
I don't know if this was suggested before.

In short.

We already had rules about official cut version of a song in a television program as an opening/ending/insert etc.
—— forced to add (TV Size.) maker

Why we didn't have similar rule about official cut version of songs in video games. (ex: Visual Novels) Which represents as opening/ending/insert as well. [Current we only have to add (Short Ver.)/(Game Ver.) if it's in title. However, few short version song is released officially.

Conclusion

Current we have

If a song title contains short or game version markers, the markers must be standardized to (Short Ver.) and (Game Ver.) respectively.
I think it's better to add.

If an official cut version of song is used in a video game as an opening/ending/insert song, use a (Game Ver.) marker at the end of the current title. If there is an existing op version/short version/game version marker in the title, replace it with (Game Ver.).
Or something similar.
August
156 posts
Joined April 2015
August
Those "official cut versions" are usually actually the original song, and their extended album versions are done afterwards. So I don't see why you'd use Game Ver. for the original

This goes for rhythm games, eroge are probably different, but sometimes they come with their own markers. This is something that should be left to tags, people should be able to do a quick 10 second google search to figure out if there's a full version of said song.
Last edited by August , edited 1 time in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
Those "official cut versions" are usually actually the original song... This goes for rhythm games.
I doubt it, can you provide some examples? The 'official cut versions' I mentioned in this post are those not released in any anywhere else (album, sound cloud etc.) They can only be found in game.

eroge are probably different.
Yea, in visual novels, they cut the song from full version and released as a opening/ending etc.

Not only visual novels, but mobile games as well. (lovelive, bandori etc.)

Also in some games, the music was cut to fit the 'background animation'.
I can provide some examples from games on steam if you think it's necessary.

people should be able to do a quick 10 second google search to figure out if there's a full version of said song.
Sorry, I don't think this is a strong argument.
People can figure out if a song is TV Size by look at the length of the map as well. Why 'TV Size' is still forced in title? It's the same case with 'Game ver.'

Really appreciate for your opinion.
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 1 time in total.
August
156 posts
Joined April 2015
August
beatmania IIDX 21 SPADA and its original soundtrack that includes a 2 minute long version Element of SPADA (this is just one example) came out in 2013

Then Naoyuki Sato released his album "follow slowly" with an extended version of the same song in 2015

As far as I know the same goes for a LOT of rhythm game music, a really popular example being beatmapsets/1371373#osu/2835408 and its original short version mapped by toybot. In this example it's the extended version that has its own marker, as the short version is simply the original, so it doesn't require any special markers.

For my last point - yes, I'm pretty much completely against markers that are not present in the original metadata. And pardon my ignorance since I never mapped any anime openings any seriously, but those do come with the (TV Size) or similar markers from the get-go?
And yeah, even (Cut Ver.) is disgusting to me, and it's just there for the lowest common denominator of a player who can't be arsed to google songs
Last edited by August , edited 3 times in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
Uh, I am not aware of the IIDX. If you don't provide a link, I think I can't get the example which you've provided.

However.

As far as I know the same goes for a LOT of rhythm game music, a really popular example being beatmapsets/1371373#osu/2835408 and its original short version mapped by toybot.
https://imgur.com/a/km9kQiE
The short version of 狂喜蘭舞 was already an official release. Not 'an official cut version of song'.
Again, my proposal is only about adding (Game Ver.) markers to video game featured songs which was cut/edited from original/official release.

For my last point - yes, I'm pretty much completely against markers that are not present in the original metadata. And pardon my ignorance since I never mapped any anime openings any seriously, but those do come with the (TV Size) or similar markers from the get-go?
And yeah, even (Cut Ver.) is disgusting to me, and it's just there for the lowest common denominator of a player who can't be arsed to google songs.
I am not gonna to argue whether it's good to add markers to songs or not.
Since osu! already forced (TV Size) & (Cut Ver.) I don't see a point why not adding a similar rule to game version songs. The current rc seems inconsistent and confusing to me tbh.
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 3 times in total.
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,642 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal
Agree that game and anime should have same rules regarding marker for sake of consistency.
or at least someone please explain why TV Size rule must be different from Game Ver. marker
caps
374 posts
Joined May 2017
caps
the last time this was brought up, it was decided that it was unnecessary because of all the content that would have to have the marker added. link to previous forum topic dealing with this

trying to find out whether a song is a short version or the original version would be a massive headache. and trying to specify which ones would have to have markers added will only confuse people and create loopholes. dealing with already existing markers is enough.
Last edited by caps , edited 1 time in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
the last time this was brought up, it was decided that it was unnecessary because of all the content that would have to have the marker added.
well, it's two years passed since the 'last time', a lot of things have changed already.
I might not bring this up again if the current rc is same as 'two years ago'.
I think I've already said enough in my past posts. --About why I think (Game Ver.) is necessary now.

trying to find out whether a song is a short version or the original version would be a massive headache. and trying to specify which ones would have to have markers added will only confuse people and create loopholes.
yea, it will be a 'massive headache', only if you didn't find the primary metadata of the song or you don't know where the mp3 comes from.
If you get the mp3 from a game, you can just search it via google, and spend 5 minutes to check if there's a full version of the song / if the shorter version is released anywhere or not. Then you would know if it's a (Game Ver.)
[btw. You always have to find the primary metadata if you want to push a map to ranked according to the rc.]

Some songs released in video games would released with a game version, while some are not. it's even a bigger 'headache' for mappers to figure this out to be honest. No matter you realize this or not, lots of recent ranked maps mess up this as well. Including one of my ranked maps. beatmapsets/1113841


dealing with already existing markers is enough.
I am sorry if you think me behave stubborn, but your argument isn't strong enough to me. I will ask more mappers for their opinions, and figure out what's the majority's opinion. Thx for your feedback. w/
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 3 times in total.
SaltyLucario
1,308 posts
Joined June 2015
SaltyLucario
if we ever implemented this it should be standarized overally to versions found in the game, without caring whether full or short was released first

thats how currently tv size works (only if this lenght appeared in tv matters) and i really dont see a reason why we should complicate things more if we ever get game ver standarization
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,642 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal

SaltyLucario wrote:

if we ever implemented this it should be standarized overally to versions found in the game, without caring whether full or short was released first

thats how currently tv size works (only if this lenght appeared in tv matters) and i really dont see a reason why we should complicate things more if we ever get game ver standarization
I think game ver is different in terms of length, for TV size its almost always around 1:30 length.
Game ver can be anywhere between 1:30 to 4:00 depending on the game. Some Game ver is almost same length as full song.

So I think Game ver. must be used as long the song is same duration as the version used in the game. whether its cut from full or taken from the game or official game ver release. This means you must be able to find the song used in game, and this could be hard if game is old/not popular.
Last edited by Drum-Hitnormal , edited 1 time in total.
caps
374 posts
Joined May 2017
caps
So I think Game ver. must be used as long the song is same duration as the version used in the game. whether its cut from full or taken from the game or official game ver release. This means you must be able to find the song used in game, and this could be hard if game is old/not popular.
this would result in so. many. songs. having Game Ver. forced upon them. i'm pretty sure many people wouldn't like this change much, if at all. it would result in even more situations similar to Inferno, where no matter which version of a song you choose to map, it'll have a marker forced upon it by RC standardization rules.

not to mention it would also have to override existing markers if they exist, like the more prevalent Short Ver..

as it is right now, it's pretty simple;
  1. oh, it's an official cut? if it isn't, add (Cut Ver.), else,
  2. is it TV size? if so, put (TV Size), else,
  3. does it have any other markers, if so, standardise it if you have to. else, don't add anything."
having to check if it's in a game would indeed be an additional headache, especially if it's obscure, and i don't think it's worth the effort.

also technically, TV size could be any length. it's no different.
Last edited by caps , edited 9 times in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
having to check if it's in a game would indeed be an additional headache, especially if it's obscure, and i don't think it's worth the effort.
Sorry, I think we've back to the beginning. Let's stop this.

I will be appreciated if you can provide any example of obscure case. So I can rewrite my proposal to make it more rigorous if necessary.
If not, I think I can just let this pass?
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 3 times in total.
Rivals_7
Beatmap Nominator
2,978 posts
Joined July 2014
Rivals_7
Just my 2cent but, can we just homogenized it to (Cut Ver.)? basically turning this:

RC wrote:

Unofficial cut versions of songs must add a (Cut Ver.) marker at the end of the current title. If a length marker is already in the title of the track, (Cut Ver.) would replace it. This is to distinguish unofficial cuts of a song from full length versions. Songs that are shortened in ways that nearly match their official versions, and songs that are a full loop of a looping track will not be considered cut.


into:

Changed RC wrote:

Unofficial cut versions of songs must add a (Cut Ver.) marker at the end of the current title. If a length marker is already in the title of the track, (Cut Ver.) would replace it. This is to distinguish unofficial cuts of a song from full length versions. Shortened songs that is used in the official versions OR artificially shortened in ways that nearly match their official versions will be considered cut, and songs that are a full loop of a looping track will not be considered cut.
3 checkmarks on where the song of this condition is applied are:

1. Its used in the official source (VN game or w/e)
2. No marker is stated officially anywhere
3. Check if the full version exist (at the time of search).

These steps is mostly just google and youtube search, which is easy.

Unless we have something that made this rule should be specifically for unofficial cut, instead of covering all kinds of "cut", i think it should fit well into OP's situation
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,642 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal

caps wrote:

So I think Game ver. must be used as long the song is same duration as the version used in the game. whether its cut from full or taken from the game or official game ver release. This means you must be able to find the song used in game, and this could be hard if game is old/not popular.
this would result in so. many. songs. having Game Ver. forced upon them. i'm pretty sure many people wouldn't like this change much, if at all. it would result in even more situations similar to Inferno, where no matter which version of a song you choose to map, it'll have a marker forced upon it by RC standardization rules.

not to mention it would also have to override existing markers if they exist, like the more prevalent Short Ver..

as it is right now, it's pretty simple;
  1. oh, it's an official cut? if it isn't, add (Cut Ver.), else,
  2. is it TV size? if so, put (TV Size), else,
  3. does it have any other markers, if so, standardise it if you have to. else, don't add anything."
having to check if it's in a game would indeed be an additional headache, especially if it's obscure, and i don't think it's worth the effort.

also technically, TV size could be any length. it's no different.
the post you mentioned has its proposal and its rejected.

Your whole reason is just we are lazy we don't want it. but there are way more TV size songs than Game Ver. so if TV Size is enforced , why not Game Ver? they should be treated the same.

Im not here to argue whether enforcing TV Size is good or bad. It's been done already in the past. I just want Game Ver. to be treated exactly same as TV Size for sake of consistency.

Is the song from a game?
Is the song same length as the one in the game?

If both = yes then use (Game Ver.)

This will be consistent with how (TV Size) is used
caps
374 posts
Joined May 2017
caps
i guess i should also mention that, at least from a rhythm game perspective, most people don't expect (Game Ver.) to be slapped on titles, unlike TV size, which is usually marked by release. that is why TV size is enforced, but not Game ver.

Short ver. is more common than Game ver. altogether, yet this will force it to be overwritten in a lot of cases (like several vn songs). nevermind the several cases where the full version was used in a game; that would force Game ver. despite it being the full version.

my point is that it would produce a lot of unwanted results. forcing consistency for the sake of consistency is frankly a bad idea in my opinion, especially since the use case and frequency of Game ver. is quite different compared to TV size. if everyone is fine with the strangeness of forcing the marker on effectively everything, then so be it.

Rivals_7 wrote:

3 checkmarks on where the song of this condition is applied are:

1. Its used in the official source (VN game or w/e)
2. No marker is stated officially anywhere
3. Check if the full version exist (at the time of search).
the problem with that is when someone ranks a song while a full version hasn't released yet. the "full version check" would produce inconsistent metadata before and after that time period. exactly why the tv size proposal was rejected it would arguably be even worse in that case since you'd be using cut ver on songs that literally weren't cut, and additionally conflict with the definition of TV size.
Last edited by caps , edited 1 time in total.
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,642 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal
a lot of mobile game (love live/bangdream etc) would release song with (game size/game ver) marker.

its inconsistent if you don't use the marker before the official release. but then you have to use the marker after the official release.

That's why I think it shouldn't matter whether official uses it or not.

I just want be clear we are talking about the case where song is made for the game. If a song was used in a game but wasn't made for this game. that's another case. Like if you use a classical piano in a game, i wouldn't mark it as Game Ver as that wasn't the original purpose of the song.

So your initial reference point is the length of song from the game. I think Game Ver should indicate its made for a game and the marker indicate the length of song is same as in the game. Whether a full ver is same as this or not doesn't really matter. If full is different length, you remove the Game Ver marker to indicate a difference in length. but if it is then you keep it cuz its same song.

You won't know if full ver is same length as the song taken from game until the release, if there's one. So the usage of Game Ver shouldn't depend on the actual release.

I think it's wrong to imply that Game Ver = Cut Ver but its from a game.

Are you saying only rhythm game is game and mobile game + visual novel are not games so they should be treated differently?
Last edited by Drum-Hitnormal , edited 1 time in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
most people don't expect (Game Ver.) to be slapped on titles
I know rules can't pleased everyone, but, you can't stand for the majority. I can't either. I don't think you are eligible to stand for the 'most people' before expressing your argument.
Also, as what I can see. There are almost the same quality of players have the same opinion as me here.

unlike TV size, which is usually marked by release.
As a j-pop mapper. I am pretty sure most of the TV-Size songs won't be released as 'TV-size' in the album as well.

Short ver. is more common than Game ver.
1. It's hard to tell if Short ver. is as much as Game ver. to be honest.
Most of the mobile games ex: IDOLM@STER released songs as Game ver. instead of Short ver.

2. For video game songs. Game ver. is more intuitive than Short ver. for players. There's no point to make them inconsistent IMO.

nevermind the several cases where the full version was used in a game; that would force Game ver. despite it being the full version.
I guess you didn't read the title. So let me remind you here... The premise of my proposal is 'official cut versions'.

if everyone is fine with the strangeness of forcing the marker on effectively everything, then so be it.
I have seen many times, people posted 'why not full version?' under Game version maps. Such marker could remind the players before downloading the maps (Not everyone would check the length on web). It's definite not 'strangeness' to me.
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 2 times in total.
caps
374 posts
Joined May 2017
caps
i was arguing against drum-hitnormal's proposal to enforce game ver. on all songs used in games. i'm not blind.

that said, it's unrealistic to try to account for "official cut versions" as you say, because you will inevitably have cases where the full version hasn't released yet, and it's deemed no marker is needed... until the full version releases. this can and will cause inconsistencies, and this is exactly why the proposal to clarify TV size was shot down. see for yourself...

Drum-Hitnormal wrote:

Are you saying only rhythm game is game and mobile game + visual novel are not games so they should be treated differently?
never said that. it's just that on the bemani side of things, for example, the in-game songs are originals most of the time. blanket enforcing this marker on these songs doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Last edited by caps , edited 1 time in total.
Muse Dash
Beatmap Nominator
162 posts
Joined January 2019
Topic Starter
Muse Dash
it's unrealistic to try to account for "official cut versions" as you say, because you will inevitably have cases where the full version hasn't released yet
I think people who map video songs should have such common sense to define if a song is full version.

If it's a song from a rhythm game. (Arcaea, SDVX etc) The game version is obviously the original full release. No need markers.

If it's a song from a visual novel, then it's probably official cut version.
(except those low-cost games... ex: fan made games. However, as what I can see, there are definitely no mapper rank songs from such visual novels. Also the soundtrack of such games usually would be released with the game.)

Also, I will be very happy if you can provide any case to support your argument.

until the full version releases. this can and will cause inconsistencies
According to your logic, if we don't add markers, there will be even more inconsistencies.
Because we can't know if a song will be released as a short/ game version in it's soundtrack.
One example:
beatmapsets/1247923/discussion/-/generalAll#/2392671

and this is exactly why the proposal to clarify TV size was shot down. see for yourself...
It's a case to case problem.
I completely don't think it's related to the current topic. Also don't want to discuss that here.
But well...... In short.
Those NAT have already expressed the reasons clearly.
We can't know if a 1:30 minutes-length anime opening song is a cut version or not before the soundtrack is released. But the common sense tells us it's a cut version. So we always need that marker.
Also we won't add such marker to a 5-mins-long insert song or a 5-mins-long anime movie ending. I think you can understand why.

Uhh,, I think our 'common sense' is usually enough for figuring out whether a song is official cut version or not. Just as figuring out if a song is tv-size.
Idk you if you really think it's hard to find whether a song is game version or not. If so, again, please provide some examples.

i was arguing against drum-hitnormal's
Ah, I am sorry.
Since I am the topic starter. But not a decent English speaker. He might not completely catch up with what is going on because of this... idk
Last edited by Muse Dash , edited 4 times in total.
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