Split from t/131015
Original proposal by Makar:

=================================

Big and Busty wrote:

I don't understand why Finishers can't be in the beginning of a 1/4 stream?
I don't understand why short kiai flashes can't be used - they are cool and fun to watch?

I can understand your point but the rules you mentioned should be applied only to noobie maps like Oni's and lower? People who tend to play Ura's will not miss or have any issues with fast spinners or 1/4 beginning with a Finisher.

I guess finishes at beginning of 1/4s are actually harder than those at end, as players will have to continue hitting at 1/4 speed even after a finish
End 1/4 finishes don't require doing so because it has a 1/2 rest after the finish

I also don't understand why 1/4 finish at the end has to be different hitsound ( kD / dK only, but not dD / kK )
As a 2-finger player, kD / dK patterns are actually harder than dD / kK to hit because I have to move my finger from a key to another in an 1/8 time
eg ooooO -> I have to hit 2nd o with left hand by pressing z, then move the left hand to x key to press O, which is harder than ooooO

Big and Busty wrote:

I can understand your point but the rules you mentioned should be applied only to noobie maps like Oni's and lower? People who tend to play Ura's will not miss or have any issues with fast spinners or 1/4 beginning with a Finisher.

The point is to be objective and provide things that the general population can play. Taiko people are not used to restrictive rules and want to follow their own guidelines and use random stuffs. You can say what you have said to standard as well. There are many things not allowed that are playable by the "top tier" players (such as hold notes, 1/8 streams, short spinners, etc) yet they are not allowed since the game must provide for all. This is definitely not the best way to word it though, so maybe somebody else can reply to this who is better at explaining things :v. Basically: Saying that we should allow everything just because the top tier players are capable are playing it is just plain wrong. Your reasoning can be said about 1/8 streams, finishers in the middle of streams, random SV changes everywhere, etc. Keep in mind that this is for ranking criteria - you are free to submit maps that do not follow these rules, but will not be put in "ranked" category.

aabc271 wrote:

I also don't understand why 1/4 finish at the end has to be different hitsound ( kD / dK only, but not dD / kK )
As a 2-finger player, kD / dK patterns are actually harder than dD / kK to hit because I have to move my finger from a key to another in an 1/8 time
eg ooooO -> I have to hit 2nd o with left hand by pressing z, then move the left hand to x key to press O, which is harder than ooooO

Interesting, I never really though of it that way. Imo a player shouldn't be expect to do this even at oni level, so maybe we shouldn't allow 1/4 finishers at all? dK is easier for 4-finger players while dD is easier for 2 finger players. I personally don't think we should cater to one over the other.

Makar wrote:

Interesting, I wouldn't of thought moving a finger 1/4 would be harder than pressing 1/8. Imo a player shouldn't be expect to do this even at oni level, so maybe we shouldn't allow 1/4 finishers at all? dK is easier for 4-finger players while dD is easier for 2 finger players. I personally don't think we should cater to one over the other.

To hit 1/4 with finish at end, players are required to:
1. hit the 2 last notes with the left hand ( If the stream is odd number. Otherwise right hand ), which is the same required speed to hit a 1/8
( Hitting 1/4 with one hand = Hitting 1/8 with both hands, in terms of speed )
2. hit the last note with right hand ( together with left hand )

1/4 end-finish is easier than 1/8 just because the time that 1/8 speed is required is shorter
But 1/4 end-finish also requires players to hit the last note simultaneously well, or else there will be still no extra score for finish

Although it's possible to ban the use of 1/4 finishes regardless of hitsounds, I personally prefer allowing them instead.
Mainly because the current rules cause some trouble to mappers.

Sometimes the song has a clear music of 1/4s which ends with a heavier sound. In this case 1/4 ending with finishes can be used.
But it somehow forces the mapper to use dK / kD only, which may limit the expression of hitsounds.
I personally encountered this situation few days ago in this map, where kpy asked me to change because kK is not allowed.
( The music is clearly of same pitch, but I am forced to either abandon finish or use unfit dK )

tldr; 100% banning the use of 1/4 finishes is imo even worse than the current situation, and I'd like dD / kK to be allowed too

aabc271 wrote:

tldr; imo 100% banning the use of 1/4 finishes is even worse than the current situation, and I'd like dD / kK to be allowed too

The problem with this is that if it's allowed, then 4-key players will be forced to be able to play in 1/4 on one finger when they weren't before. As I said, I don't really like the idea of catering to one style over the other; since they are both popular play styles. I'd like more opinions on this.

Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it and have at least 2 notes before it that are the opposite note (For example, xxooxxooX, xxxxooooX, xoooxoooX, etc).

As I remember xoooX is not allowed as discussed, and it's not listed in the entire rules. As I know it is also stated that streams with 1/4 finishes must have stream length 5 or above (why this is not stated in the rule?), so a better solution would be explicitly stating how the last 5 notes can be for the any streams with finishes at the end.

The reason behind banning inappropiate finishes is that musically they just don't make sense. Imagine something that ends with xoooX. The x in the front, as a highlighting point of the neighbourhood, defeat the purpose of having an even stronger note at the end. Similarly, something like xoxoX, xoxxO, etc., does not making sense for us to emphasize the last note with some previous note has the same weight.

Remember, we are not considering whether it is impossible to FC (under a general frame of mapping maps are always FC-able theoratically), but to see if they make sense with the song.

Imho, there's very, VERY few cases where finishers should even be used at the end of a 1/4 stream, regardless of colours leading to the Finisher...

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.

A better idea would be to add a guideline / recommendation to not use finishers at the end of a 1/4 stream, but mention they can be used in situations where they will fit.

edit:

wmfchris wrote:

The reason behind banning inappropiate finishes is that musically they just don't make sense. Imagine something that ends with xoooX. The x in the front, as a highlighting point of the neighbourhood, defeat the purpose of having an even stronger note at the end. Similarly, something like xoxoX, xoxxO, etc., does not making sense for us to emphasize the last note with some previous note has the same weight.

Remember, we are not considering whether it is impossible to FC (under a general frame of mapping maps are always FC-able theoratically), but to see if they make sense with the song.

I feel the need to quote this because of how misinformed and hypocritical the first paragraph is in comparison to the second one. Damn near any note combination can make sense (including xoxoX / xoooX) depending on what the song calls for. You have no right to say that it doesn't make sense to emphasize something like xoxoX, xoxxO because of "a previous note having the same weight". Not only does that make no sense as a statement whatsoever, it also doesn't take into consideration the situation of the song at ALL. I know plenty of songs where something like xoxxX would make perfect sense, but it isn't allowed in the current rules.

Interesting. I would like to see examples, if exist.

Song as a whole is of course considered, and considering the surrounding notes is the basics before you take care of the notes' effect on the whole song. If the pattern is way off the corresponding part of the song it should be fixed no matter how it's fine with the whole song.

Makar wrote:

The problem with this is that if it's allowed, then 4-key players will be forced to be able to play in 1/4 on one finger when they weren't before.
As I said, I don't really like the idea of catering to one style over the other; since they are both popular play styles. I'd like more opinions on this.

Just saying that 2-key players always play 1/4 finishes as 1/8, and dK / Kd are actually the harder ones ( explained on my 1st post ), so the current rule is already catering 4-key players more
But still, what you said is a valid point. I'd also like more opinions on how others think, esp the 4-key players

Tasha wrote:

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.

A better idea would be to add a guideline / recommendation to not use finishers at the end of a 1/4 stream, but mention they can be used in situations where they will fit.

Kind of agree with this. I think there's no solid criteria to judge whether a use of certain 1/4 finishes is appropriate, and so they should better be checked case-by-case. As long as they are used in a reasonable situation, I'm fine with that

Well, nobody responded to my request to split so I decided to do it myself; hopefully I didn't screw up...

Continuing the discussion: I think xoooxoooX is completely fine in terms of proper usage w/ music. Many drum-based songs have a k k K structure at the end of phrases.

I think we should consider more of playability as aabc has said, though. In fact, we should never put rules related to what wmf said into the ranking criteria as they are subjective, I think.

I think things like KddKdddK etc, would work fine. Just take the formality of how we end streams with finishers into the middle/start.
But at the same time hitting a finisher spot on is pretty strict in osu!taiko. And messing up in the slightest can give you a miss even. Putting that into a stream seems pretty deadly! (Or maybe I just suck at finishers?) Of course hitting finishers properly is not a forced feature, doing so provides "bonus" points in a sense. Kinda like how hitting every tick on a slider isn't required, but very beneficial. After I submit this I'll make a few test maps and fiddle around with combinations and provide some feedback. I've never had much of a problem with performing the keystrokes to hit these sort of streams, but like I said: Finishers are very strict in osu!taiko so it's hard to do perfectly while streaming.

EDIT: In case no one caught on, I don't support this yet. I'm just putting out a theory and my thoughts/observations.

So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)

I wonder if people would agree on all 1/4 finishers being allowed - or at least disallowing two finishers at the same time. Then no 1/4 finishers could be a guideline or something and allow it only if it's called for.

I really have no strong opinion towards one side or the other anymore.

This really needs to consider BPM as well, since 100 BPM streams with finishes mixed in are pretty damn easy to play by simply singletapping everything.
I'd say limit it to a max of maybe ~120 BPM though, and only accept it if the music clearly asks for it.

Luna wrote:

This really needs to consider BPM as well, since 100 BPM streams with finishes mixed in are pretty damn easy to play by simply singletapping everything.
I'd say limit it to a max of maybe ~120 BPM though, and only accept it if the music clearly asks for it.

Limiting BPM is not a good idea, as many players have different abilities with it. Some are slow, some are fast. Some would find 180bpm 1/4 finishers easy, others would find 120bpm 1/4 hard. If we were to allow it, then whether it is good or not is per-situation.

^ in reply to that, I'm actually gonna quote your own post since you explained it quite nicely.

Makar wrote:

The point is to be objective and provide things that the general population can play. Taiko people are not used to restrictive rules and want to follow their own guidelines and use random stuffs. You can say what you have said to standard as well. There are many things not allowed that are playable by the "top tier" players (such as hold notes, 1/8 streams, short spinners, etc) yet they are not allowed since the game must provide for all. This is definitely not the best way to word it though, so maybe somebody else can reply to this who is better at explaining things :v. Basically: Saying that we should allow everything just because the top tier players are capable are playing it is just plain wrong. Your reasoning can be said about 1/8 streams, finishers in the middle of streams, random SV changes everywhere, etc. Keep in mind that this is for ranking criteria - you are free to submit maps that do not follow these rules, but will not be put in "ranked" category.

120 BPM was just a random number, but I believe that's around the singletap speed that most players can achieve if they play Taiko for a while. Significantly higher speeds should definitely not be expected from players.
I do agree however that a specific number as an absolute, never-to-be-broken hard limit would be quite hypocritical since the difference between - for example - 120 and 120.1 BPM should not decide if a map is rankable. Common sense should always be applied and decisions must be made depending to the specific songs.

Makar wrote:

So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)

I'd just like to clarify that this is completely irrelevant. In the arcade you can do finishers just with a hard bang from one stick so it's not a problem at all. The problem here is due to how fingers work.

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.

Once you get to about 130, 140 BPM that sort of thing starts to become uncomfortable for most people. The rule is designed for how most players play the game, which is with 4 fingers, and the current rules are designed so that the player doesn't have to do said uncomfortable ninja-tapping unless they're doing an unorthodox set-up (like 2 fingers). And it's not "slightly harder" - once you get to like 160 BPM there is a pretty big difference between ooooX and ooooO w/ 4 fingers. Well, for normal people that is. I'm sorry if you have robotic fingers and feel discriminated by this, but normal fingers don't find 160 BPM singletaps comfortable. :/

It can work at lower BPMs, though. It's very BPM dependent.

Makar wrote:

So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)

I wonder if people would agree on all 1/4 finishers being allowed - or at least disallowing two finishers at the same time. Then no 1/4 finishers could be a guideline or something and allow it only if it's called for.

I really have no strong opinion towards one side or the other anymore.

It has been discussed before that the so called 'authenticity' should have no effect when rules are to be crafted (try to read through t/72569 ), and the song mentioned is a special case even you take the whole TnT song database. Those 1/4 finishes stream is just a gimic, and like some of the stupid acceleration in other TnT songs, that makes no sense at all.

I will read the discussion later, just one thing: Would be things like kkDkk work well? I've got a map where I used it and it sounds perfect imo. By avoid of the D it sounds pretty boring and I've asked around if this would be fine but getting "no" as answer.

However, is ddddkkkkdkdkD fine?

I still think it should be a guideline not a general rule - taiko is about mapping and playing notes which fit the music. Mapping is an art and ability, to play is a skill. If a skill of a player is not sufficient for the map, it's not the map's fault it's the player's. There is no snobbishness or elitism in my post, I am not saying that maps should be only for the top 10 players, I am just saying an obvious thing; if you want silly patterns - put them into hard diffs. No sane person should put 1/4 Finishers into Oni's and lower - those maps are supposed to be enjoyed by everyone, but if you want it to be applicable to the hardest diff. ie Ura Oni, - I don't see any point of this rule.

Of course it should merely be a guideline.

Mapsets should have maps available for everyone to be able to play, separate harder difficulties should not be toned down difficulty wise for the sake of some people struggling with certain patterns.

Why only the hardest diff? If you use then in oni, or even muzukashii, in a simple format it helps the player learn these type of things, so they don't enter the higher diffs blind and frustraited. Making them special to just the harder diffs is elitist. :p

But another thing contributing to this is the mapper. If the mapper doesn't want to use them they won't. And as it stands for how long this rule has been present, little to no one has used them. So I'm not sure what you are expecting, big and busty, it's obvious the community doesn't really like these types of patterns.

I'm still neutral about them though. They might be fun to play if done correctly, but that is just my opinion. I don't want to see maps being stupid for the sake of being stupid. I personally won't let that happen.

The main problem I see with start- or middlestream bigs is that if you screw up pressing both keys at the same time (bignote bonus), you will most likely get a miss for the following note, since the game will register it as two seperate hits (this depends somewhat on BPM and OD however) and since you can't expect every player to hit keys perfectly, this should not be allowed. Moreover, they overlap notes behind them if the BPMxSV is somewhat low (compareable to reading 1/8).

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.

I personally see no reason in having finishes in streamends aswell and always recommend to remove them in my mods, it's something unpleasent to play IMO and leaving out the note before the finisher (ddddK -> ddd K) doesn't ruin the whole pattern and is more enjoyable from a gameplay-side, I however know players that really enjoy those finishers.

tl;dr: Current finisher-rules are fine as they are, don't touch them.

EDIT: Concerning the patterns where bignotes are allowed at the end of the stream: I'd rather say that they are irrelevant, as long as there's the final pattern is kD or dK. All notes before have no real influence on how you have to play the last two ones and I can imagine all kinds of patterns that would work with whatever stream + finish at the end, music is versatile.

Kokatsu wrote:

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.

aabc is talking about his own experience, why not? If you tried to play TnT acrade you will understand how 2-finger players think. Sometimes 'using all resources available' is a bit vague. Just take the standard mode as example --- how 'all resources' are defined? The two keyboard key? Keyboard key plus two mouse key? Then if I play tablet by poking+keyboard (-> 3 keys) am I using all the resources available? If I have an extra keyboard (meh kind of grey zone) and not using it am I not using all resources available? I would say every finger config has its own advantage and disadvantage but when playability by general (top) players most of the config would be considered itstead of 'the one using most resources'. Instead, it's 'their best to play'. Actually, 2-finger make sense in reality situation --- you only have two drum sticks, right?

leaving out the note before the finisher (ddddK -> ddd K) doesn't ruin the whole pattern and is more enjoyable from a gameplay-side, I however know players that really enjoy those finishers.

One of the solution to avoid 1/4 finishes. Not forcing but I liked to do that.

Kokatsu wrote:

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.

Sorry, but I don't think "not using all resources I have" means my argument is invalid
What you said is assuming all players with non-4-fingers playstyles have no right to say for their side of interest just because they're not mainstream
And also "not using all resources" is quite vague. I wonder what's your definition of that ?

Keep in mind that there is no fixed playstyles for osu taiko. There is no rules saying one must play this game with 4 fingers.
Maybe you don't know, but I originally played osu taiko with 4 fingers too ( in 2009 ), but later changed to 2 because I wanted to train hand-alternating better.
And I know that there still a lot of other different styles, eg wmf's 1 hand 3 fingers, firce's 1 hand 4 fingers etc...
Let me quote wmf's words :

wmfchris wrote:

Actually, 2-finger make sense in reality situation --- you only have two drum sticks, right?

Are their concerns invalid just because they don't "use all resources" ? Of course not.
They are still part of the osu taiko community and they should have the right to express their point of view

There's no absolute good or bad with this kind of rule, so try gather opinions and reach a consensus to fix this.

Though I don't think 1/4 streams with big notes mixed in HS 1.0 looks so comfortable, it is somewhat readable but I feel quite uncomfortable to see big notes covering portion of the next note quite a lot. I have thought about allowing 1/4 streams with big notes mixed, with sufficiently high HS, but whatever, it's still hard to play since the notes are fast to read.
Mappers might think mixing big notes might be good way to express something he or she wants but if too many players feel this uncomfortable, that can be a problem. I'm a bit worried cause this thread is full of mappers rather than players... Maybe it's a matter of adaptation.

lepidopodus wrote:

Mappers might think mixing big notes might be good way to express something he or she wants but if too many players feel this uncomfortable, that can be a problem.

Isn't that highly depending on the case (here: the difficulty)? Isn't the modding process there to fix flaws like "badly playable patterns"?
Shouldn't 1/4 big notes be allowed, as long as it plays well? Isn't the modding process there to find out if it "plays well" and "works as it should"?

Sometimes I feel like people are entirely forgetting the modding process is not only about finding unrankables but to evaluate if a map is working good...

@^:
The statement itself is quite right, though I think you also know that several drama was occurred (well, mostly in osu! standard mapping) due to interpretation difference of 'works well'. It's not omnipotent.

It maybe due to I started a mapping long time ago and I was the most active in old days, anyway, to be honest, I don't trust current Taiko modding system that much. Whatever, it's improving so let's just skip this.

I've tested and tried to play finishers at the beginning and the middle of streams. Conclusion... It doesn't work so well for me. However I can't speak on behalf of everyone else because maybe someone can do it. It's just that I can't and I'm pretty sure there are a lot out there that also can't.

All of them are tested in 1/8th streams. Results are inconclusive for 1/6 and 1/3.

Anything marked with "yes" can be played by anyone.
Anything marked with "Depends on bpm" can be double tapped at the finisher at the tested bpm.
Anything marked with "no" are either impossible for me to successfully hit or they just require too much work to successfully hit and not everyone can play like that.

Results: Tested at 136 BPM

Retested in stream usage (also 136 BPM)
As long as the last 9 notes follow a basic stream pattern the results aren't affected at all


Tested at 240 bpm
A lot of them are marked with "no" because most of them require single tapping with whichever hand you lead with and not everyone can do this. Again, all of them are tested in 1/8th streams. Results are inconclusive for 1/6 and 1/3.


Retested in stream usage


Anything with finishers at the beginning and middle changes streams and shifts them over by one note and many new players can find this confusing. They aren't impossible to play, I just discourage the usage of them because they can become quite confusing in longer streams. Ex. (Xxxxooox --> X|xxxooox) (xoooXooox --> xoooX|ooox)


If anyone tries to rage or flame my results even though I said they don't apply to everyone. I'll light yo ass up like a candle stick right here in this thread. Thanks for reading this. ^_^

wmfchris wrote:

Sometimes 'using all resources available' is a bit vague. Just take the standard mode as example --- how 'all resources' are defined? The two keyboard key? Keyboard key plus two mouse key? Then if I play tablet by poking+keyboard (-> 3 keys) am I using all the resources available? If I have an extra keyboard (meh kind of grey zone) and not using it am I not using all resources available? I would say every finger config has its own advantage and disadvantage but when playability by general (top) players most of the config would be considered itstead of 'the one using most resources'. Instead, it's 'their best to play'.

How resources are defined? By the game. To relate to your example: Even if you use keyboard + mouse/tablet, the keyboardkeys still function like left/right Mousebutton, limiting the buttons you can technically press at one time to two, no matter how hard you try. For Taiko, you will end up with 4 keys you can technically press at once.

wmfchris wrote:

Actually, 2-finger make sense in reality situation --- you only have two drum sticks, right?

As already mentioned in relation to TnT, you can bash the drum harder for a harder sound (IRL aswell), where you don't need to hammer it with two sticks simultaniously to get another sound.

Loctav wrote:

Isn't that highly depending on the case (here: the difficulty)?

Already mentioned that but it got ignored.

I read some post and would like to contribute to this topic as well. I think we should come forward here and come to a conclusion.

The idea of having patterns like ooooxxxxO or ooxxooxxooX is to give the mappers more possibilities in mapping. So or so we can't do as much as osu mapper are able to do, so making even more restrictions in mapping will make the mappers job harder in expressing the song in his way. It makes the chance that maps look the same higher.
Also as Loctav said, it is possible to mod such notes away if they are kinda overused or not fitting to the song or anything else.

The question "why no ooooxxxxX for example" is atcually pretty simple to be answered and has been shown by Kuro as a model in a good way. The higher the BPM is the harder it becomes to hit ...xX notes because you have to double tap these notes with one finger, whether a ddkk or kddk player is playing this. Of course you can skip the finisher, but we should use the example of a player who want 100% of the possible score in a map.

Having no finisher at the beginning or at the middle of the stream has some simple reasons as well:


As you can see, the notes behind the first and middle finisher are overlapped which is in general a no in Taiko. In the current example it is still readable, but imagine we have special cases like 100 BPM maps or maybe high SV's. The story turns into a really bad one, which current rule would need to deal with by having exceptions, and this would be a never ending discussion(+ the rule would be no rule anymore). Also I should mention that I doubt that many people agree to this usage of finishers(we can ask around?). Also the possibility of playing such streams is not stable enough.
Ah, and after all... a finisher should be used -in my opinion- as the name says: As a finish note. But that's just personal preference.

Due to these reasons I would say to keep the rule as it is.
(actually there are even more reasons)

If you ask me, the reason a finisher is allowed at the end of such streams is that usually in music, such streams are representing a buildup which explodes at the downbeat as a start of a new section (and the end of the current one).

Just because it really fits is allowed perhaps, not because it's super cool or something. Finishers during or at the start of the stream, while agreeing to your concerns, usually don't really fit the music anyway.

@Ono: I'm not sure how valid the double tap reasoning is, if you read the comments aabc has made. Another thing to consider is that finishers don't even have to be hit in order to FC a song or even 100% it. The problem I see with this is that we are catering to a certain play style when many other types are growing that can either make finishers harder or easier. If we are judging the rule by playability, then this rule would be best changed to disallow finishers entirely. If we are judging by following the music, then there shouldn't be restrictions on what is before the note. Mixing them together just causes problems and arguments and nearly always causes an endless subjective discussion on how much we should favor one over the other. In regards to the current rule: if we are going to do it this way, I see no reason for the rule to be more general instead of restricting to certain patterns. If we judge by your idea, then any stream that ends in xxO should be completely fine, as it has the same idea; however, I will say again that this caters to a certain area of players and would be better off allowing any ending in a stream if it's for musical purposes, or nothing if it's for playability.

aabc271 wrote:

I also don't understand why 1/4 finish at the end has to be different hitsound ( kD / dK only, but not dD / kK )
As a 2-finger player, kD / dK patterns are actually harder than dD / kK to hit because I have to move my finger from a key to another in an 1/8 time
eg ooooO -> I have to hit 2nd o with left hand by pressing z, then move the left hand to x key to press O, which is harder than ooooO

Well, you see Makar, this is still no double tapping as you would need to do for kK. You are changing the fingers in the oX case while in xX you have to move one finger twice.
So oX is still easier to hit.

Another thing to consider is that finishers don't even have to be hit in order to FC a song or even 100% it

As I said, we should considere that players want to have 100% of the possibile points. I doubt that the controvers is the case. :/

The problem I see with this is that we are catering to a certain play style when many other types are growing that can either make finishers harder or easier.

I have to disagree here. We have in general the two common play-styles ooxx and oxxo. In both cases you would not have to double tap oX notes.
ooxx - ddddkkkkD : kats played e.g. on the left hand while D is played be the right one.
oxxo - ddddkkkkD : kats played e.g. as mzmz - last z-button played by left hand while (xn) is played on right and left hand. On the left hand it would be no double tapping, just switch to other finger which is actually easy.

Well, I still see no reason why not to keep the rule because of following reasons:
- more possibilities in mapping
- Both play styles are having no disadvantages of this
- middle and beginner finisher would overlap the notes while end-finisher dosen't

Maybe I missed something and there is something bad in my points? If so, please point that out for me.
Else if this should sound reasonable, the only reason which would make me to agree removing this rule is, if many people feel uncomfortable with it or have discomforts.

Ah, let me also mention that in the past we mentioned that ooooxxxxO is fine as long as it fits to the song to be able to avoid an overuse of these patterns. If it dosen't fit to the song or an overuse has been done, this can be modded away.
But ever since these rule exist, maybe just a handfull of maps used such patterns and I didn't hear any urgent discomforts about it at all.

So the removing of this rule sounds vague to me.

OnosakiHito wrote:

this can be modded away.

I kinda said all I wanted to say, however I just want to add that this is how thing start going downhill.
Eventually people will refuse mods which would make those things go away and it would be accepted sometimes, and eventually it will become common.

Take a look at standard for example (a bad example but still), things which were considered unrankable were over time considered "in the grey area" and then suddenly they became accepted.
I am sure this is the path this would take if you don't create rules carefully.

I see no point to completely ban mid-stream finishers here. In fact, it's better to allow them for musical purposes, even if they're not doable for most players. In my opinion, I think that 1/4 finishers should NOT be limited AT ALL for up to 120 BPM* (because they're 1/2s in double the BPM in range), so long as they blend with the song. The higher the BPM, the less shall the frequency be, but not to a complete zero, as some certain circumstances may occur depending on the music. If some players go DT, it's their own risk to lose some thousands or more to compensate the higher per-note score accumulation.

...and then I suddenly forgot what to add, lol. At least threw my 1 cent (?) here.

OnosakiHito wrote:

The problem I see with this is that we are catering to a certain play style when many other types are growing that can either make finishers harder or easier.

I have to disagree here. We have in general the two common play-styles ooxx and oxxo.

If this were true, then I'd agree with you, but it's not. This one little thing changes everything. I'll say again that I do not agree with catering to a specific play style just because it was the most popular back in the day. In fact, going by this logic, eventually mid stream oXo will be rankable because xxoo 4 finger play style is growing much faster than oxxo 4 finger from what I can see.

I'll also mention again that restricting it to specific streams is also kinda stupid when there are other streams that follow the same idea

We should try and reach a compromise on the topic, or just stop talking about it all together. It is pretty obvious that the opinion is divided on using 1/4 finishers beyond ddddK, kkkkD etc. So making any type of rule right now seems silly until we can all agree on a new way to work with 1/4 finishers. I already gave my full opinion on why 1/4 finishers don't really work because of the timing restrictions and heavy overlapping. (SV boost are not a justified work around, we don't do artificial difficulty in this game.) So unless there is a valid way to use these properly in a justified manner we can't go anywhere.

The only solutions I can see, that probably won't happen, is if the Finisher notes are always under the surrounding notes mid stream, so the note after is not blocked, regardless of the SV. And if there were more leniency on the finisher note's double score completion, or else this is a useless mapping technique, and would just serve as a gimmick to a ton of players.

I would like to show a map as per example of where 1/4 finishers are being used properly, and why this rule should fall more under discretion of the BAT than being a set in stone rule.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/101824

In the map linked above, there are some parts in the music where the mapper uses ddkdKdK. Normally there would be issue with this, but with the map in question, it is relatively low BPM (117 BPM to be exact), and actually mapped to finishers in the background music.

The qualm I have with this being unrankable is that you could see that exact same ddkdKdK pattern in 1/2 in a 234BPM map, and yet it would be considered rankable in that case? Why is one considered rankable whereas the other one isn't when they are both the exact same thing?

I honestly feel we should push for making this more of a suggestion than a straight out rule, because it highly depends on both the BPM and the song itself. A suggestion lolcubes gave that I thought was really good was that we could use the BPM of the authentic 1/4 finisher song (can't remember the name) and set that as a suggested cutoff for using 1/4 finishers. This would allow for us to have a point where we say "Maybe you should consider a different pattern to do this without 1/4 finishers." to mappers who are abusing them.

Well, I would have nothing against it to make this more modding based. But not BAT based, better if they ask experienced Taiko People/Mapper.
Playability and readability is still way more important as how it sounds like, so BATs opinion might be sometimes missleading.

In the past high BPM have been permited due to good readability. Playability has been also considered as okay. Low BPM didn't got permitted due to overlap of big notes and worries for mappers who could abuse this.

But anyway, I would agree to Tashas suggestions, making this to a rather modding-based case, after the Mapping Guide has been finished.
So people can just refere to the guide instead of saying "No, not allowed.".

Playability + readability + sounding. These would be the criterias, right?

So does really nobody give a damn? Two days and not a word on the subjects leads me to believe so, especially when some people who should have input here have been online.

Current Proposal: Make 1/4 finisher usage into a guideline. Use the all finisher authentic map as a general cutoff BPM. Make it more based on playability + readability + whether it fits in the map, and get rid of bad usage through mods.

Does anyone have any problems with this?

Finally someone else spoke it out loud.

I'm fine with this change.

The map Tasha linked has valid usage of finishers in my opinion. But there is one other matter to consider. While the BPM is low, the map's composition does not feel like that BPM due too that SV.
I propose to keep it as a rule, but allow such usage if the maps use very high base SV, because obviously 1/8 may be used. This would still keep it pretty safe from abuse and is still a step forward to allow it in special cases where it fits.

lolcubes wrote:

The map Tasha linked has valid usage of finishers in my opinion. But there is one other matter to consider. While the BPM is low, the map's composition does not feel like that BPM due too that SV.
I propose to keep it as a rule, but allow such usage if the maps use very high base SV, because obviously 1/8 may be used. This would still keep it pretty safe from abuse and is still a step forward to allow it in special cases where it fits.

Wouldn't that be the same thing as the readability statement in my suggestion for guideline? SV would need to be adjusted in these cases to make 1/4 finishers readable on pretty much any low BPM song, otherwise there would be overlap.

No because that is making it backwards. That is adjusting the SV to allow the usage when it should be the other way around. If such a SV is fitting because the map is mapped in that way (and justified), I see no reason to prevent the mappers from using 1/4 finishers, just like that map is using.

As long as my map and maps with instances like mine are OK I'm fine with it

In all seriousness though, I'm not a pro taiko player and I can read it as long as the SV is on the 'high' part of the spectrum.

Can't say I fully agree to the idea of keeping it a rule, but that's what compromise is for. I'm down for keeping it a rule under the specifications you've given. It's better than there being no 1/4 finishers at all!

I finally got to move my ass off and post that

Taiko 1/4 finishers are a big problem in mapping as we can't -- well, couldn't -- reach an agreement on maps that use them. Some want a blank space before it, others want them to be like normal notes. I'm the kind of guy who would rather have a blank space than this to be treated as regular notes but who still uses them as regular notes.

I find the overlapping argument pretty weak, as this is perfectly readable. Slower scrolls have more overlapping between regular notes, making it even harder to read. For slower scrolls, of course, this practice is to avoid it in all cases since the notes may be impossible to even see. Starting a stream by a big note, even at x1, is to avoid unless the BPM is slow enough (150 is the highest I can do without any accuracy problem, using OD10) : some keyboards may badly support the use of it and thus lead to unwanted misses (Imagine someone hitting quite perfectly in real life but hits badly translated => computer thinks you hit 2 notes instead of one => missing).
The multiple big notes-stream is to avoid by all means, also for the bad inputs from some kbs. That would give insane gaps and would most likely prove that some settings are better than others. (I don't mean key settings, but more computer settings.) As peppy(?) stated, you only need a basic computer setting to play osu! (mouse, keyboard, monitor and central unit is more than enough) so using more than this is some kind of cheating.

The only use of finishers I agree with on all kinds of BPM is the ending finisher. As most people say, some finishers are harder to hit than others as you need to hit twice the same key, which is agreeable I must admit (I can do them until my own maximum speed, but have trouble starting from 220 BPM). I'd go for the different note setting (...ooX or ...xxO).

I am aware that xxoo / ooxx settings may not respond the same way than others do, but since I'm a xoox player myself, I thought it was a good idea to post my own view on it.

I think it would be best if any type of finish streams were allowed as long as the previous note is of the opposite color
/my2cents

lolcubes wrote:

SPOILER

No because that is making it backwards. That is adjusting the SV to allow the usage when it should be the other way around. If such a SV is fitting because the map is mapped in that way (and justified), I see no reason to prevent the mappers from using 1/4 finishers, just like that map is using.

So we would keep the current rule with the change that lower BPMs with a reasonable higher SV are allowed to have finishers in their patterns? Did I undestand you right?
If so, I would agree to this. - Currently most people agree with just having 1/4-finish ends as well.

Also, thank you for your opinion Gezo.

Forcing High SV because of 1/4 finishers overlapping is a silly concept. It is not a gameplay mechanic or mapping technique, it is a "flaw" with how the notes interact with each other. And at the same time, a "flaw" with our locked SV per map outside of using a mod. Logically, it was the main reason namco didn't use such streams, unless every note was a finisher. (For some silly reason) We all know namco doesn't stray away from difficulty (hurhur Suhaa2000), so they obviously looked at these type of finishers streams from a game design perspective. Blocking a note from a player's visions is not a smart thing to do, especially in a game that requires high level hand-to-eye coordination. It would obviously be frowned upon by people who don't have insane eyesight.

To go in the direction of: "our locked SV per map outside of using a mod". The fact that we are locked to the SV the mapper selected, without the use of mods, is quite ridiculous, and a contributing issue to why we can't really use 1/4 finishers without gameplay "flaws", like I explained above. It has been proven by the community that different people like different SV's. Someone like me for example who likes a nice 1.4 on everything, and the occasional 1.6, compared to the HR savvy players (Who are the majority of the community, mind you.) who like everything fast. In a perfect world, where we could freely change our SV to personal preference, like osu!mania, or even TnT arcade games, 1/4 finishers mid-stream would be acceptable, because you can prevent these silly overlaps to your own liking of speed. It doesn't take too much to get the finishers not blocking notes, but forcing it on a player is just wrong. I would like to lead this to a feature request if we can agree on it.

IN MY OPINION, these are a couple of issues that prevent the use of these finishers, logically. Oh and I provided a solution, too.

I feel like making a more serious point here, but keeping it brief:

I think finishers should be allowed in 1/4 streams if:
- The difficulty is Oni or above
- The note (not plural) before it was of a different colour, and NOT a finish (xxxxO or ooooX, but not xxxxX or ooooO)
- The BPM is between 0-130 (or 140, this is up for debate)

This list is in order of importance. First of all, only Oni's should use this pattern. No exceptions. Secondly, to avoid the 1/8 singletap on the finish on all two-handed playstyles, the note directly before it should be of the opposite color/hitsound of the finish, and not be a finish itself. The BPM rule is more of a 'difficulty regulator' to keep this pattern in check. 200BPM songs should never run this pattern (it's like 1/8 finishers on a 100 BPM song!) unless it's a taikocolapse or similar lolhard difficulty made for approval.