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A change from ranking guideline to a rule.

posted
Total Posts
36
jeff sensei
16 posts
Joined July 2018
Topic Starter
jeff sensei
I think the Guideline "All circles and slider heads should be snapped to distinct sounds in the music. Adding hit objects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in unfitting rhythms." should be changed to a Rule because I think it's one of, if not the most important "rule" every mapper should follow. The map that first got me looking up this rule/guideline is beatmapsets/659328#osu/1442631 this map Aeril's Expert diff. At 00:37:121 there is a burst that so blatantly doesn't follow this guideline by having a burst on 1 trumpet note. There are more maps that brake this guideline but not as noticeably (still shouldn't be allowed) and some maps had to change triples because "no distinct sound". So essentially you could just place random objects on the map (which by these rules would be rankable) and hope for BN RNG.
Conclusion: I don't want more maps in osu! that don't follow the music/have objects in the map that don't correspond to any sounds in the music so I think that guideline should be changed to a rule.

Last edited by jeff sensei , edited 2 times in total.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
agreed, mappers are supposed to be mapping to the song not making up random stuff with no regard for what the artist was doing!
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
welcome to the forums! make sure when you post ranking criteria suggestions that you include your proposed change in your thread's title.

this will never be made into a rule simply due to many instance of sounds not having distinct starts and the mapper needing to approximate or improvise. even excluding that, additive rhythming (placing beats where the song has none) has been a relatively common practice for many many years and has resulted in many extremely popular and highly praised sets from both the players' and mappers' perspectives. that being said, these rhythms are often difficult to execute in a way that feels fitting as you said, which is why we have this as a guideline, so it can be left to the modding community and the bng to ensure they are reasonable. i hope that makes sense ^^'

(also not sure how to tell you this but your example timestamp has a clear 1/6 drumroll there, that stream isnt mapping the brass)
qwt
965 posts
Joined January 2020
qwt
disagree some song fit overmapping
enneya
Nomination Assessment Team
387 posts
Joined October 2017
enneya
?
Uberzolik
osu! Alumni
291 posts
Joined January 2012
Uberzolik
lasse is shaking in fear of this RC change
Sophie Twilight
518 posts
Joined October 2019
Sophie Twilight
When the 1 forum post guy gets replied by UC and BNs
Belladonna
90 posts
Joined February 2018
Belladonna
.
Last edited by Belladonna , edited 1 time in total.
Zelzatter Zero
3,984 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero
the whole mapping scene is shook rn
Reflexed
58 posts
Joined July 2016
Reflexed
fort's, kalibe's and lasse's maps are now gone 🦀🦀🦀🦀
Balto
119 posts
Joined August 2016
Balto
this would kill a lot of creativity in mapping
jeff sensei
16 posts
Joined July 2018
Topic Starter
jeff sensei

UndeadCapulet wrote:

welcome to the forums! make sure when you post ranking criteria suggestions that you include your proposed change in your thread's title.

this will never be made into a rule simply due to many instance of sounds not having distinct starts and the mapper needing to approximate or improvise. even excluding that, additive rhythming (placing beats where the song has none) has been a relatively common practice for many many years and has resulted in many extremely popular and highly praised sets from both the players' and mappers' perspectives. that being said, these rhythms are often difficult to execute in a way that feels fitting as you said, which is why we have this as a guideline, so it can be left to the modding community and the bng to ensure they are reasonable. i hope that makes sense ^^'

(also not sure how to tell you this but your example timestamp has a clear 1/6 drumroll there, that stream isnt mapping the brass)
Yeah sry it's my first time posting.
Yeah ok if the osu! community agrees with additive rhythming than it's ok but I still disagree. I would rather play a map where every object is supported by a sound. Also I heard that little section like 20+ times (without hitsounds of course) and I just don't hear a drumroll. Thanks for the reply.


Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
Last edited by jeff sensei , edited 1 time in total.
despacito1
43 posts
Joined August 2018
despacito1

ratokkoy wrote:

this would kill a lot of creativity in mapping
its not creative to straight up place notes where there isnt a sound thats just schizophrenia mapping
Shii
374 posts
Joined October 2016
Shii

despacito1 wrote:

ratokkoy wrote:

this would kill a lot of creativity in mapping
its not creative to straight up place notes where there isnt a sound thats just schizophrenia mapping
TIL that myself, Lasse and God knows how many other mappers all engage in "schizophrenia mapping". Frankly, that's an incredibly inappropriate comment to make.

I wholly agree with ratokkoy, especially given that both of my currently qualified maps break this guideline to some degree.

Needless to say, I disagree with this "proposal", as there are more than a few useful applications of improvised/additive rhythm that both benefit mappers and players alike.
Mononymous
210 posts
Joined July 2018
Mononymous
Really agreed with Shii, some instruments that is used in a song (like pianos) are really complex and you have to use a lot of different snappings if you want to map it accurately instead of justifying the rhythm because apparently simplifying rhythm for playability is "schizophrenia mapping" but that's besides the point.

just accurately mapping everything is really just a bad idea because 1. you need to accurate, like 100%, 2. playability is just thrown out of the windows and knowing the players, they would complain about having to tap at an advanced pace that isn't even introduced in the song before.

overall, I really don't get about this "proposal" about having to map accurately, as it's more of a mapper's choice to either simplify rhythm or accurately place rhythm (most likely simplifying) not to mention, overmapping can also be used to express the songs, like the part where the songs is at the strongest, so it can be justified overall.
Last edited by Mononymous , edited 3 times in total.
despacito1
43 posts
Joined August 2018
despacito1

Mononymous wrote:

Really agreed with Shii, some instruments that is used in a song (like pianos) are really complex and you have to use a lot of different snappings if you want to map it accurately instead of justifying the rhythm because apparently simplifying rhythm for playability is "schizophrenia mapping" but that's besides the point.

just accurately mapping everything is really just a bad idea because 1. you need to accurate, like 100%, 2. playability is just thrown out of the windows and knowing the players, they would complain about having to tap at an advanced pace that isn't even introduced in the song before.

overall, I really don't get about this "proposal" about having to map accurately, as it's more of a mapper's choice to either simplify rhythm or accurately place rhythm (most likely simplifying) not to mention, overmapping can also be used to express the songs, like the part where the songs is at the strongest, so it can be justified overall.

Shii wrote:

despacito1 wrote:

ratokkoy wrote:

this would kill a lot of creativity in mapping
its not creative to straight up place notes where there isnt a sound thats just schizophrenia mapping
TIL that myself, Lasse and God knows how many other mappers all engage in "schizophrenia mapping". Frankly, that's an incredibly inappropriate comment to make.

I wholly agree with ratokkoy, especially given that both of my currently qualified maps break this guideline to some degree.

Needless to say, I disagree with this "proposal", as there are more than a few useful applications of improvised/additive rhythm that both benefit mappers and players alike.
to shii:
gonna make it clear here that i see overmapping and placing objects where theres no sound as different things

if representing the song requires overmapping then do go ahead and overmap ofc

wasnt quite aware of the impact of the statement i made sorry about that.

to mononymous:

saying that accurately mapping the song is a bad idea kinda just defeats the purpose of (at least) the top diff of a spread

playability is too subjective of an argument to make in general
Mononymous
210 posts
Joined July 2018
Mononymous

despacito1 wrote:

to mononymous:

saying that accurately mapping the song is a bad idea kinda just defeats the purpose of (at least) the top diff of a spread

playability is too subjective of an argument to make in general
Hmm, maybe I wasn't clear enough, I apologize, while playability is subjective, it still doesn't change the fact that it plays a big role when it comes to mapping of course, and I didn't mean to say, accurately mapping the song is a bad thing, but overall just mapping something that is really off (like some piano solos) can provide a lot of confusion to a player, yes you may need to accurately map to the song, but it's just that some parts of the songs that is really off (like it uses frequent different snappings) can really be a bad idea and that's why some people simplify the rhythm while making it justifiable.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

Mononymous wrote:

but it's just that some parts of the songs that is really off (like it uses frequent different snappings) can really be a bad idea and that's why some people simplify the rhythm while making it justifiable.
A simplified rhythm still hits on snaps that actually have sounds, just not all of them and leaves out the potentially problematic ones or puts them on passive hitsounds.
What you seem to describe is more of an improvised rhythm, not a simplified one.

If there are actual snapping problems it just screams for timing ranking criteria too.
Overall i think your arguments make very little sense.

Personally i tend to be in favor of this proposal, it's something at the very core of what makes beatmapping different from centipede and when we still had a dedicated QAT maps would get DQd over mapping clicks with no sounds too so it's not particularly new either.
Last edited by Endaris , edited 1 time in total.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
hard disagree as making this as a rule with the way it's worded as this would ban improvisation, a common mapping technique

if you are talking just about rhythm that are completely unfitting to the music, just use this rule from the taiko rc instead then :

Every note must be clearly assignable to a musical layer or layer unit it tries to represent, be it to enhance a layer the song provides, or be it an additional layer improvised by the mapper. Do not improvise in a fashion that shifts the pace, contradicts the general music movement or misinterprets the song's current intensity. Improvising must either enhance a current layer of the song or add a new one. Otherwise, relation to the song is given up and this contradicts the main purpose of a rhythm game.
that way it doesn't interfere with simplfied rhythms and improvisation which are beneficial to the maps most of the time
Last edited by realy0_ , edited 2 times in total.
DeletedUser_13957006
DeletedUser_13957006

jeff sensei wrote:

Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
umm
OneShotFox
371 posts
Joined August 2016
OneShotFox
congratulations you've ruled out half of alt and stream maps.

This is way better of as a guideline rather than a rule because improvisation is a key part of mapping that can be used to emphasise sounds. Several songs have used bursts to overmap held sounds before. Overmapping is fine and it comes down to a case by case basis and with deal with the devil and several other maps. It's justifiable due to its design and intensity.

plz enjoy game
McEndu
1,166 posts
Joined March 2019
McEndu
If this comes into effect, we gotta change that guideline in 3 gamemodes to a rule...so I'm going to say something from the perspective of o!m mappers.

While certainly mania mapping discourages a good number of forms of overmapping, people still overmap in the form of "dumps" and others. Changing it into a rule would likely let these patterns unrankable as it gives exceptions to overmapping for simplification only. As a result, less variety would be allowed in the ranked section which nobody wants to see here.

o!m rc is good enough that it gives such exceptions; for other gamemodes it can only be more devastating.

Carcinogenesis wrote:

-Doodle wrote:

realy0_ wrote:

hard disagree as making this as a rule with the way it's worded as this would ban improvisation, a common mapping technique

if you are talking just about rhythm that are completely unfitting to the music, just use this rule from the taiko rc instead then :

Every note must be clearly assignable to a musical layer or layer unit it tries to represent, be it to enhance a layer the song provides, or be it an additional layer improvised by the mapper. Do not improvise in a fashion that shifts the pace, contradicts the general music movement or misinterprets the song's current intensity. Improvising must either enhance a current layer of the song or add a new one. Otherwise, relation to the song is given up and this contradicts the main purpose of a rhythm game.
that way it doesn't interfere with simplfied rhythms and improvisation which are beneficial to the maps most of the time
real lazy[nuked]
real lazy[nuked]
realazy
Last edited by McEndu , edited 1 time in total.
Scub
690 posts
Joined September 2016
Scub

jeff sensei wrote:

Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

McEndu wrote:

If this comes into effect, we gotta change that guideline in 3 gamemodes to a rule...so I'm going to say something from the perspective of o!m mappers.

While certainly mania mapping discourages a good number of forms of overmapping, people still overmap in the form of "dumps" and others. Changing it into a rule would likely let these patterns unrankable as it gives exceptions to overmapping for simplification only. As a result, less variety would be allowed in the ranked section which nobody wants to see here.
Making this a rule in o!m is like taking 50 steps back.
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
xLolicore-
636 posts
Joined June 2014
xLolicore-
??
Lights
683 posts
Joined December 2016
Lights
Big disagree, at least for osu!mania. This rule makes sense from an osu!std perspective, but from the perspective of 4key mania you're basically making "fun high difficulty 4key charts" against the rules.

Two relatively popular styles of chart would be negatively affected by this change. LN and dumps. LNs tend to see some questionably placed release timings in some instances that could hurt an otherwise good chart's chance of getting ranked. The entire point of a dump is that it is "expressively and creatively overcharted" to make fun and interesting stream patterns that loosely follow the charter's interpretation of the music. Is it technically accurate? nah. but some of the best "Loved" charts are of this category.

I get the philosophy the ranking criteria tends to follow- but please handle this in a mode by mode basis.
TheKingHenry
1,665 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
seems like a pointless change, when it can introduce negative effects (see plenty of comments here), and the current guideline should be enough to subdue possible current negative effects as long as it's sufficiently enforced

ScubDomino wrote:

jeff sensei wrote:

Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
this LOL
Zelzatter Zero
3,984 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero

jeff sensei wrote:

Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
Please read what the definition of overmapping is: wiki/en/Beatmapping/Overmapping

Overmapping also explicitly covers the placing in the non-existing sound. Mentioning overmapping and "every object is supported by a sound in the song" at the same line is extremely contradictory.
MANi
151 posts
Joined March 2018
MANi
That's why you should only play unranked maps 👽👽💀
jeff sensei
16 posts
Joined July 2018
Topic Starter
jeff sensei

Zelzatter Zero wrote:

jeff sensei wrote:

Tubby Custard wrote:

disagree some song fit overmapping
overmapping is fine as long as every object is supported by a sound in the song.
Please read what the definition of overmapping is: wiki/en/Beatmapping/Overmapping

Overmapping also explicitly covers the placing in the non-existing sound. Mentioning overmapping and "every object is supported by a sound in the song" at the same line is extremely contradictory.
Yeah realized that, I always thought overmapping was just a map having way more gameplay intensity that the song would suggest via big spacing or something like that (without mapping sounds that don't exist). Thanks for the explanation



MANi wrote:

That's why you should only play unranked maps 👽👽💀
No by Fleshgod Apocalypse [Canvas of Existence] ranked when?
Chiru-kun
800 posts
Joined January 2018
Chiru-kun
Are there any maps that led you to make this post?
Aiju_old_1
Aiju_old_1

Lights wrote:

Two relatively popular styles of chart would be negatively affected by this change. LN and dumps.
every harder o2jam chart is literally just dumps. Or at least used to be, I can't follow all the lvl systems between servers so idk maybe something changed.
But at the same time older bms used to be very strict on "overmapping" because of keysounding, so streamy maps would have their own category of "delay charts".
To expand on what you wrote ranking criteria should be applied not only on a mode by mode, but even style by style, with a separation between keymodes and rice/LN/gimmicky charts.
DeletedUser_5153421
DeletedUser_5153421
it is really annoying to point out triplets that have no real connection to the music and it being ignored because it's the mapper's choice i guess, it just seems to ignore the song. but i do see how it's justified to emphasize other sounds like vocals; i just don't get when it's there for no reason lol.
Last edited by DeletedUser_5153421 , edited 1 time in total.
Dialect
1,535 posts
Joined May 2018
Dialect
going back to super driver days i see
[[[[[[
886 posts
Joined August 2019
[[[[[[
is dis a joke
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
Please don't bump threads with posts that contribute nothing to the discussion.

Will be considering this thread denied and archiving due to the clear reasons provided against instating it as a rule throughout the thread and general opinion present.
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