what about songs that don't support easy maps then?
Obviously you can force an Easy or Normal onto them, but is that really a good idea?
Obviously you can force an Easy or Normal onto them, but is that really a good idea?
forum
[Rule] Minimal number of difficulties
posted
Total Posts
59
Show me please a song/music that does not support 'Easy Maps'
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560
I guess "supporting easy maps" will stay subjective no matter how long this discussion will go on.
I guess "supporting easy maps" will stay subjective no matter how long this discussion will go on.
Forgotten indeed does support an easier difficulty, but certainly not a whole spread. Just noting this.
I imagine very well every kind of 5 types of difficulties.
Here is 270 bpm https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 map with every kind of diffiсulties. If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
Here is 270 bpm https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 map with every kind of diffiсulties. If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
Louis Cyphre wrote:
If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
Zarerion wrote:
force an Easy or Normal onto them
Zarerion wrote:
subjective
How to understand force an easy/normal? Explain your thoughts correctly
Nope, you're looking at it the wrong way. We no longer have any upper limit on difficulty count, regardless of song.Blue Dragon wrote:
Marathons should NOT have a second difficulty.
But absolutely no one will mod a map with 40+ minutes total or so.those wrote:
Nope, you're looking at it the wrong way. We no longer have any upper limit on difficulty count, regardless of song.Blue Dragon wrote:
Marathons should NOT have a second difficulty.
I've been doing 3 diff set for about 2 years ever since we started suggesting you really make 3
3 should only be enough if NM/HD/EX is rankable.
If it's not, then the minimum should be higher.
Spread requirement should go both ways. +support to op
If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpm song you can make a CS7 diff that is both not-overmapped and yet challenging in a unique way. Don't let stuff be ranked with 2 diffs when some other mappers are requested to have more than 3 diffs to rank their map that's just terrible.
If it's not, then the minimum should be higher.
Spread requirement should go both ways. +support to op
If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpm song you can make a CS7 diff that is both not-overmapped and yet challenging in a unique way. Don't let stuff be ranked with 2 diffs when some other mappers are requested to have more than 3 diffs to rank their map that's just terrible.
Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
Mapsets must have at least three osu! standard or Taiko difficulties. one of which must be an Easy/Normal level.I could live with this point. From my Side I don't mind to do a 3rd Diff for my Maps IN CASE I see that Insane/Easy is do-able and would not end as overmapped Shit or as boring crap. Like here I was quite impressed how good this can work. But I have my doubts about special songs which are extremly calm, slow or just don't give the possibility to do a Easy/Insane. I am working on this Song as Map and I have Normal/Hard for that. I tried to do an Easy but it ends that it's just undescribable boring and too plain to play.
I see the thing that Songs can be too slow but not too fast to make easier Diffs, but also about the Fact that Songs can't be too fast but being too slow to make Insane/Expert Diffs. (we have enough examples for this)
With other words: Don't force this as Ranking Criteria but as Guideline.
It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending, but it's recommended, not needed, for Marathon, having at least a Normal/Hard additional level.What's the sense of this Point? You are mapping Marathon Maps BECAUSE you would need one Diff. And Marathon Maps are for usual over 10 Minutes long.
Topic Starter
Unless they go in 1/1 I agree in part, one can play around with the Difficulty settings/SV instead overmapping, it would be a bit boring but the song already would be boring by itself, not all Insanes must be like "OMG super speed, lots streams and jumps". Like Lavender Town, 1/1 all the song and it worked up to Hard, nice one Stefan.Louis Cyphre wrote:
What about songs that have 40-60 bpm? I can't imagine 3 difficulties on very calm music. The 3rd hard obviously will be overmapped/overdone.
I somehow agree with this, but that's more a matter of the BPM of the song itself. The higher the BPM the more diffs it could "support", I think most of the songs can at least support an ENH spread and in high BPM a minimal NHI could work better.Louis Cyphre wrote:
If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
Lazy mapper: "It's a Guideline, it's not mandatory, let's keep doing two-diff mapsets."Stefan wrote:
With other words: Don't force this as Ranking Criteria but as Guideline.
About the Marathon observation, I think middle players could enjoy a Marathon at their level, it's just my idea as a player.
Another option is let to the XAT members look if the song doesn't support more than two difficulties, but I think some of you won't agree too much with this.
Guidelines must be followed unless a convincing, valid reason is given.DakeDekaane wrote:
Lazy mapper: "It's a Guideline, it's not mandatory, let's keep doing two-diff mapsets."
I can say the same about the need to map lowdiffs for speedcore or 5 minute dragonforce maps.Loctav wrote:
Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/206275
can you say with a straight face that low difficulties for this song would not just be easy for the sake of being easy and would not fit the song at all.
BPM does not tie into difficulty at all. A 1/1 rhythm on 60bpm has the same "difficulty level" as a 1/1 rhythm on 400bpm.
Try mapping a lowdiff for this song and you'll see why it's impossible. There is no way to make a good lowdiff for this. Sure I can throw some slow distance snapped sliders and call it a map but it won't have any connection to the song.
And if you're going to say it's possible, then I don't see why a high diff (at least an [Insane]) for these for example isn't possible
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81262
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81924
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44748
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75451
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/60721
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75938
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81915
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71883
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/57984
There are a lot of mappers who could easily make a good insane for any of those. You want valid reasons? This allows maps to appeal to a broader audience. Isn't this the point of difficulty spreads? Why do the rules only go one way.
And if you're going to say it's possible, then I don't see why a high diff (at least an [Insane]) for these for example isn't possible
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81262
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81924
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44748
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75451
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/60721
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75938
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81915
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71883
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/57984
There are a lot of mappers who could easily make a good insane for any of those. You want valid reasons? This allows maps to appeal to a broader audience. Isn't this the point of difficulty spreads? Why do the rules only go one way.
You see, difficulty level is relative to the BPM, A 60 BPM Easy wont be the same as a 400 BPM Easy, yet a 400 BPM Easy would be easier than a 400 BPM Normal which is easier than a 400 BPM Hard.
People should start thinking that a difficulty is a combination of the song BPM and Difficulty Level is portrayed at, this happens on every official rythm game, not that every Easy is gonna be the same regardless of BPM.
People should start thinking that a difficulty is a combination of the song BPM and Difficulty Level is portrayed at, this happens on every official rythm game, not that every Easy is gonna be the same regardless of BPM.
This map is reason enough for this rule not to be changed. Remember, rules are absolute. This map is lucky to have such drain time, else there would have to be another diff (with this new rule in effect 2 more) diffs. I can't really picture anything harder than this diff, which is already pretty easy for a hard, and having anything easier than a normal would be really boring, especially if the normal would be deemed easy enough for the lowest diff of the whole set.Blue Dragon wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
I am okay with having this as a guideline though, to always try to map a spread (ENH or NHI). Remember, guidelines should still be respected, but there are exceptions allowed. Treating those exceptions might seem subjective, but if you ask me, if every beat of the song is mapped and the diff is not hard enough, that stops being subjective and more than 2 diffs shouldn't be enforced.
Obviously there might be certain songs which can be extremely hard to map easier diffs for, but I am out of solutions for this one, just because a mapper X can't map a diff, doesn't mean a mapper Y can't either. I cannot judge this.
So can I rename RLC's diff to [Easy], [Extra] to [Normal], [490 style] to [Hard] and go for rank?Sakura wrote:
You see, difficulty level is relative to the BPM, A 60 BPM Easy wont be the same as a 400 BPM Easy, yet a 400 BPM Easy would be easier than a 400 BPM Normal which is easier than a 400 BPM Hard.
People should start thinking that a difficulty is a combination of the song BPM and Difficulty Level is portrayed at, this happens on every official rythm game, not that every Easy is gonna be the same regardless of BPM.
this is what I understand from your statement
Depends on the map, if it's 1/1 mapped or even 2/1 mapped without overlaps, streams (1/2 or higher since it's supposed to be an Easy), or jumps then i'd say it's fine even if it's faster BPM. Seriously difficulty making guidelines should be related to the snap and not to the time difference between notes imo.
In either case that's going a bit off subject, Can we agree on having as guideline the 3 diff minimum then?
In either case that's going a bit off subject, Can we agree on having as guideline the 3 diff minimum then?
The topic was started not even 24 hours ago. Give it a week or two.
Lavender Town's hard diff is widely hated by 'pro' players and it's not such a good map.. It's just unnecessairly hard because of the small circles.
How about a guideline that a map needs to be mapped both easy as possible AND hard as possible
So that NM/HD spreads can't slip into ranking when a song can obviously be mapped harder
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.
And at the same time, don't ask for ES/NM diffs on a song that really doesn't call for it. i.e. when a 1/1 diff for the song would still be harder than most ranked [Hard]s.
So that NM/HD spreads can't slip into ranking when a song can obviously be mapped harder
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.
And at the same time, don't ask for ES/NM diffs on a song that really doesn't call for it. i.e. when a 1/1 diff for the song would still be harder than most ranked [Hard]s.
It would be perfect if BATs wouldn't let maps from their 'friends' bypass this because "they don't think it's necessary", like it happens with many unranked maps nowadays.Aqo wrote:
How about a guideline that a map needs to be mapped both easy as possible AND hard as possible
So that NM/HD spreads can't slip into ranking when a song can obviously be mapped harder
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.
And at the same time, don't ask for ES/NM diffs on a song that really doesn't call for it. i.e. when a 1/1 diff for the song would still be harder than most ranked [Hard]s.
Right! Being the main way of this, Overmapped "beats" is bad since it just break the osu! (and general rhythm game) soul -- that's let the user have fun by tapping the circles/anything on the screen according to the song beats! Overmapping destroys and frustrates this, since the "beats" just not exists on the song (even though it can be inside the mapper's imagination).Loctav wrote:
Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
There are other ways to make harder maps. For example: in an Easy diff you should "keep the path" anywhere is possible on the map, and on Hard you could "free your wild mapper inside" by making several "path breaks" and a lot of symmetry patterns into map.
Once I tried a secret GD to Capital Inicial - Natasha, my GD was a pathy map that's easier than the [Hard] and harder than [Normal]. While the original [Hard] is surely a fully "path breaking" map .
EDIT: I'm waiting for two-diff Marathons --- they COULD exist yeah, since the modders could allow themselves to mod just one of them.
Uuh.cFiszpan wrote:
There are other ways to make harder maps. For example: in an Easy diff you should "keep the path" anywhere is possible on the map, and on Hard you could "free your wild mapper inside" by making several "path breaks" and a lot of symmetry patterns into map.
Anyway, I agree with Aqo, but it would be really hard to enforce that, I expect mappers to insist their songs can't be mapped easier/harder.
Topic Starter
After discussion, I really don't mind if it's a rule or guideline, as long it encourages the use of a larger spread in mapsets it's fine, as Aqo said, a broader audience should enjoy the song, not only for pro players, also for beginners with no rhythm skills. Should I change something?
Not always is this the case. Do you want to see maps of >120bpm with unfitting slider velocity, density and difficulty? I wouldn't find a map that goes against the current of the song very enjoyable. I guess you could say the same for <200bpm, but like it has been said before, it's totally possible to map easys for these. You have tons to map to, you just need to find a basic rhythm to start and use your mapping abilities to create some variety within the map. The relative difficulty needs to reflect the song itself. You abide by the rules of the song. The only problem with this opinion is that difficulty and fittingness are partially subjective. Some people might agree a map that generally follows the song's rhythm while incorporating a different one (the one the mapper sees fit) is appropriate. Others may disagree and say that the ceiling would be 100% what the song allows. Your palette is limited to the choice you made in song. Different songs have different ranges. How do we determine the difference between an appropriate insane difficulty and a completely overmapped one that's unplayable? How will we know it's okay to disregard the need for an easy before it's absolutely boring?Zarerion wrote:
Anyway, I agree with Aqo, but it would be really hard to enforce that, I expect mappers to insist their songs can't be mapped easier/harder.
In any case, this thread hasn't been up for long, so don't jump to conclusions yet. Let some more community voices be heard. Currently I'm a bit hesitant considering this will give people the idea that it's okay to map insanes for something that doesn't need one. If anything, a guideline would work best seeing as it's a common belief that not all songs allow for the appropriate or desired difficulty spread you ask for.
If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpmhttp://osu.ppy.sh/s/35952 , take a look.
Aqo wrote:
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.
Good idea although some mappers want have the 'glory' of making their own harder diffs.and collabs are good too (: (shared glory is better than a solitary one imo)
I agree with making 3 adjacent difficulties the minimum for a spread. We shouldn't ask taiko difficulties to get a 3rd one (Muzukashi's are not that horrible to learn on once you have some rhythm game experience and understand the Don-Kat thing), but for osu! a full spread is very important. Slow songs that are hard to make insanes for can settle for the E/M/H when dragonforceguitarsoloheavyomg300bpm songs can possibly remove the easy and have a M/H/I spread. I just dislike having 2 difficulty spreads because there is NO reason why you cannot have either an easy or an insane in your map.
Kinda contradicting my point, but I would probably settle for two osu! difficulties ONLY IF it has two other game mode difficulties. If we are combating laziness in the mapping community, This would work. If we just set a minimum of 3 osu difficulties or 4 total difficulties, that would probably work.
Kinda contradicting my point, but I would probably settle for two osu! difficulties ONLY IF it has two other game mode difficulties. If we are combating laziness in the mapping community, This would work. If we just set a minimum of 3 osu difficulties or 4 total difficulties, that would probably work.
Yup, 80% (if more) of these kind of Songs should only have two Diffs because a third (Easy/Insane) would be out of place and just stupid. An Easy/Insane Diff would be here just ridiculous.Louis Cyphre wrote:
If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpmhttp://osu.ppy.sh/s/35952 , take a look.
and yes, Taiko should not really affect to this Topic since it's a almost completely different "system" there.
An Easy Diff would be here just ridiculous.Erm, what?
Yeah it's not really fitting with your Post at all but just saying that Insane or Easy, depends on which song, cannot be always mapped. I've fixed my Post.
As i said, i don't believe that it's impossible to make an Easy difficulty on any song/music. Well unless it has 600+ bpm...
The way that I see it is thus: Some songs flat-out do not suit an insane map, because that is almost certain to feel overmapped in regards to the feel of the song. In regards to easy, it is always possible to break down even the most ridiculous track into simpler components, even if it means focusing on nothing close than the downbeats.
The skill in mapping any difficulty is identifying which parts are important, as opposed to slathering patterns over every note duration. This needs to scale to easier difficulties, because they need more space between patterns. Admittedly, normal difficulties are generally quite playable to many beginners, but I have seen people struggle with easy diffs as well. It's about providing the widest spread possible, just in case a complete novice decides suddenly that they want to play a particular song.
The whole thing with scalability is that there's enough leeway for one song itself to be enjoyed by both a complete novice and a seasoned high-ranker. I didn't sit down and write a thesis about this sort of thing. It's honest-to-goodness common sense. If you can't understand that, then I have bad news for you.
The skill in mapping any difficulty is identifying which parts are important, as opposed to slathering patterns over every note duration. This needs to scale to easier difficulties, because they need more space between patterns. Admittedly, normal difficulties are generally quite playable to many beginners, but I have seen people struggle with easy diffs as well. It's about providing the widest spread possible, just in case a complete novice decides suddenly that they want to play a particular song.
The whole thing with scalability is that there's enough leeway for one song itself to be enjoyed by both a complete novice and a seasoned high-ranker. I didn't sit down and write a thesis about this sort of thing. It's honest-to-goodness common sense. If you can't understand that, then I have bad news for you.
if you cant get a nice diff spread then dont go for rank? not every song is fit to be made into a proper beatmap
i said there should be enough normal / hard difficulites, and of course, if you can't map an insane to a song you should leave it^^Blue Dragon wrote:
It's not always possible.Irreversible wrote:
I totally agree with you
I think the special thing on osu maps are especially the Insane ones. Of course there should be enough Normal / Hard difficulties. But please.. make an Insane at least.. i dunno if it's only me - but a hard (even with double time) most of the time seems pretty boring, and it just sux if I like the song. . .
Try making insanes for songs like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12282
That's just stupid and completely breaks the point of "osu!, where you can make a beatmap of your songs!"
The second one could have a hard, and the first one could have an easy. Not every song can have an Insane difficulty, but 90% of the ones that can't have them can have a perfectly good easy difficulty. All this rule is asking for is "Make the minimum number of difficulties 3 instead of 2", not "Every map needs an insane". Maybe there are a few songs that can't get 3 difficulties made. When this happens, I would ask myself: "Is this a song fit for a rhythm game?" and "Is this song too simple for what I am trying to do?".Irreversible wrote:
i said there should be enough normal / hard difficulites, and of course, if you can't map an insane to a song you should leave it^^Blue Dragon wrote:
It's not always possible.
Try making insanes for songs like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12282
Sure, you should be able to map whatever song you want, and there is nothing stopping it. However, the RANKING process is a separate system altogether. It is a standard for quality and competitive play. When you download a ranked map, you expect certain things out of it. One of these things (in my opinion) should be that they have three difficulties, to ensure that everyone can enjoy (not just play) a map. What I mean by enjoy is, quite simply, having fun. An easy is there so beginners can have fun playing along to their favorite songs, while Insanes are there to let experienced players test their skills and play the song's rhythms to their fullest potential. If a song can't do one of those, fine. Just compensate for it in the other one.
I'm pretty sure it couldn't, unless you use CS6+ and all that shit that happens in maps like Lavender Town, that people are suggesting here and that I think it would make the quality of the maps MUCH lower.Mithost wrote:
The second one could have a hard
Lavender town was one of the songs that would land in the "Is this song too simple for this rhythm game" section. I dislike that it was ranked. The other one is in a slightly better spot, but I agree that it MIGHT become overmapped on a hard difficulty.
Why not keep the 2-diff rule as that: a rule
and the 3-diff one as a guideline? I mean guidelines should be followed except you have a reason for not doing it.
Of course this would still fall under a subjective category but I guess this could be a solution for this problem. People and XATs just have to start a discussion if a song does support 3 diffs or whatever.
This won't help maps with an overall bad spread but at least it gives people more possibilities to find their skill level in a mapset. I also dislike 2 diff mapsets where I think there could be more diffs :/
About Lavender Town ^^ I understand all the hate but to be honest I made the whole mapset from the beginning as a joke that I wanted to see how far I can get with
I wouldn't agree that the song itself is "too simple for a rythm game" but that the Hard does not feel fitting in it.
I actually tried to make a hard but I realized very fast that it turns off as shit. You can still get this "thing" in the map discription. I said fuck it: I make it as overwhatever as possible with CS7 and put it their
I took the Hard from TVO in the mapset because he said he can make a hard (which I did not really believe) and kept it, because like i said: It was thought as a joke and if i don't get it ranked it might as well stay in the mapset.Even though I think the hard is a bit meh
I personally don't care what people think about the mapset but before this discussion continues about that map I might as well say what I think/thought since it is a good example why you should not turn 3-diff minimum into a rule
Edited the last lines a bit
and the 3-diff one as a guideline? I mean guidelines should be followed except you have a reason for not doing it.
Of course this would still fall under a subjective category but I guess this could be a solution for this problem. People and XATs just have to start a discussion if a song does support 3 diffs or whatever.
This won't help maps with an overall bad spread but at least it gives people more possibilities to find their skill level in a mapset. I also dislike 2 diff mapsets where I think there could be more diffs :/
About Lavender Town ^^ I understand all the hate but to be honest I made the whole mapset from the beginning as a joke that I wanted to see how far I can get with
I wouldn't agree that the song itself is "too simple for a rythm game" but that the Hard does not feel fitting in it.
I actually tried to make a hard but I realized very fast that it turns off as shit. You can still get this "thing" in the map discription. I said fuck it: I make it as overwhatever as possible with CS7 and put it their
I took the Hard from TVO in the mapset because he said he can make a hard (which I did not really believe) and kept it, because like i said: It was thought as a joke and if i don't get it ranked it might as well stay in the mapset.
I personally don't care what people think about the mapset but before this discussion continues about that map I might as well say what I think/thought since it is a good example why you should not turn 3-diff minimum into a rule
Edited the last lines a bit
Yes, the 3-diff idea should be a guideline. This is just to allow leverage for songs that don't quite allow for such a spread. Many fine examples have already been posted as proof.bomber34 wrote:
Why not keep the 2-diff rule as that: a rule
and the 3-diff one as a guideline? I mean guidelines should be followed except you have a reason for not doing it.
I personally don't care what people think about the mapset but before this discussion continues about that map I might as well say what I think/thought
I hope you meant the discussion of this thread because you're kind of going off-topic with that statement.
If 2 diffs is a rule and anything more is just a guideline, then is IN/EX ok for rank?
Whatever you decide at least be consistent with it.
Whatever you decide at least be consistent with it.
You do know guidelines are supposed to be followed like rules and can only be broken in certain circumstances right?
The sense of having at least two Diff ina Mapset is that lower and higher Player can have their specific Diff-Level to play.Aqo wrote:
If 2 diffs is a rule and anything more is just a guideline, then is IN/EX ok for rank?
Whatever you decide at least be consistent with it.
I really don't see a reason against stipulating three difficulties. If there are two, then it should be enforced in a way which provides balance. That is, a calm song having at least E/N and a ridiculous song at least having H/I. Common sense dictates that there should be leeway for players who aren't as skilled in every case. Hell, maybe make the rule variable and enforce E/N, N/H or N/H/I. There's your all-catering rule, right there.
The thread is abandoned, tho the rule won't change. Neither someone pushed any further change forward nor did the discussion participants were able to agree to something specific.