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[Rule] Minimal number of difficulties

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DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Recently many mapsets have been ranked with just two difficulties, Normal and Hard. My point is, some mappers only care about making their mapset "rankable", leaving the players aside and letting some unable to enjoy the song as they would want, beginners because a Normal could be too much for them (this is 100% based in my own experience) or experts that want a true challenge have to DT/HD the Hard diff instead playing a true Insane. Even short songs (under 2 minutes length) that could have a nice Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane spread are being mapped only with two difficulties, Normal and Hard.

Yes, another mapper can make a mapset for the same song with more difficulties, but that's not a true solution, many are going to disagree with me, but believe me, many mappers are being lazy and are abusing of the two-diff rule (at least in standard).

Also this contradicts seriously the rule for the Approval category.
  • Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
In my opinion, Normal/Hard isn't a full spread.

My idea is, modify this:
  • Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard or Taiko difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.
To this:
  • Mapsets must have at least three osu! standard or Taiko difficulties. one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending, but it's recommended, not needed, for Marathon, to have a Normal/Hard additional level.
So we can have at least Easy/Normal/Hard or Normal/Hard/Insane, so the map could reach more enjoyment from more players.
Why the last part about Marathons? Because some Marathons tend to have a very high difficulty.

I think you can get the point of this, if a mapset will aim for rank, it should be enjoyed by most of the players, not only because it's good.

Let the discussion begin~

Please don't lock or begin off-topic discussion.
Last edited by DakeDekaane , edited 2 times in total.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Marathons should NOT have a second difficulty. That'd be forcing mappers/modders to map/mod usually 30 minutes+, which is ridiculous.
It took me 8 months to get 3 mods for a Marathon map with 18 minutes, would you imagine what it'd be with 2 or more diffs?
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Oh, I think it wasn't too clear, rewritten, sorry, it would be recommended and not needed, I know map/mod a large song is quite painful.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I totally agree with you

I think the special thing on osu maps are especially the Insane ones. Of course there should be enough Normal / Hard difficulties. But please.. make an Insane at least.. i dunno if it's only me - but a hard (even with double time) most of the time seems pretty boring, and it just sux if I like the song. . .
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Irreversible wrote:

I totally agree with you

I think the special thing on osu maps are especially the Insane ones. Of course there should be enough Normal / Hard difficulties. But please.. make an Insane at least.. i dunno if it's only me - but a hard (even with double time) most of the time seems pretty boring, and it just sux if I like the song. . .
It's not always possible.
Try making insanes for songs like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12282
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
At least I can agree that two difficulties aren't a so called 'full difficultie spread'. The connection between these two difficulties is missing.
Also it leads often to, too hard 'easy osu! difficulties'. I play Easy/Normal really often and a decent number of them is rather a Hard instead of their said description. Quite disapointed if you ask me as low player.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
About the difficulty spreads, it's hard to know if they exist simply because they work very well or if they are just laziness from the mapper.
This map, for example, is a 2-diff collabed mapset, that I did because it simply worked very well this way.
However, there are many people that abuse this rule, so I'm neutral on this.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
What about songs that have 40-60 bpm? I can't imagine 3 difficulties on very calm music. The 3rd hard obviously will be overmapped/overdone.

Map should contain as many difficulties as it is needed for good spread. E N H I X. 5 category of difficulties, if song supports them, then you need to make them.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
what about songs that don't support easy maps then?

Obviously you can force an Easy or Normal onto them, but is that really a good idea?
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
Show me please a song/music that does not support 'Easy Maps'
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560

I guess "supporting easy maps" will stay subjective no matter how long this discussion will go on.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Forgotten indeed does support an easier difficulty, but certainly not a whole spread. Just noting this.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
I imagine very well every kind of 5 types of difficulties.

Here is 270 bpm https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 map with every kind of diffiсulties. If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Louis Cyphre wrote:

If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song

Zarerion wrote:

force an Easy or Normal onto them

Zarerion wrote:

subjective
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
How to understand force an easy/normal? Explain your thoughts correctly
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Blue Dragon wrote:

Marathons should NOT have a second difficulty.
Nope, you're looking at it the wrong way. We no longer have any upper limit on difficulty count, regardless of song.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

those wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

Marathons should NOT have a second difficulty.
Nope, you're looking at it the wrong way. We no longer have any upper limit on difficulty count, regardless of song.
But absolutely no one will mod a map with 40+ minutes total or so.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
I've been doing 3 diff set for about 2 years ever since we started suggesting you really make 3
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
3 should only be enough if NM/HD/EX is rankable.
If it's not, then the minimum should be higher.
Spread requirement should go both ways. +support to op

If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpm song you can make a CS7 diff that is both not-overmapped and yet challenging in a unique way. Don't let stuff be ranked with 2 diffs when some other mappers are requested to have more than 3 diffs to rank their map that's just terrible.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Mapsets must have at least three osu! standard or Taiko difficulties. one of which must be an Easy/Normal level.
I could live with this point. From my Side I don't mind to do a 3rd Diff for my Maps IN CASE I see that Insane/Easy is do-able and would not end as overmapped Shit or as boring crap. Like here I was quite impressed how good this can work. But I have my doubts about special songs which are extremly calm, slow or just don't give the possibility to do a Easy/Insane. I am working on this Song as Map and I have Normal/Hard for that. I tried to do an Easy but it ends that it's just undescribable boring and too plain to play.

I see the thing that Songs can be too slow but not too fast to make easier Diffs, but also about the Fact that Songs can't be too fast but being too slow to make Insane/Expert Diffs. (we have enough examples for this)

With other words: Don't force this as Ranking Criteria but as Guideline.

It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending, but it's recommended, not needed, for Marathon, having at least a Normal/Hard additional level.
What's the sense of this Point? You are mapping Marathon Maps BECAUSE you would need one Diff. And Marathon Maps are for usual over 10 Minutes long.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane

Louis Cyphre wrote:

What about songs that have 40-60 bpm? I can't imagine 3 difficulties on very calm music. The 3rd hard obviously will be overmapped/overdone.
Unless they go in 1/1 I agree in part, one can play around with the Difficulty settings/SV instead overmapping, it would be a bit boring but the song already would be boring by itself, not all Insanes must be like "OMG super speed, lots streams and jumps". Like Lavender Town, 1/1 all the song and it worked up to Hard, nice one Stefan.

Louis Cyphre wrote:

If it's possible to make Extreme, then it's possible to make other 4 easier difficulties. Any music/song
I somehow agree with this, but that's more a matter of the BPM of the song itself. The higher the BPM the more diffs it could "support", I think most of the songs can at least support an ENH spread and in high BPM a minimal NHI could work better.

Stefan wrote:

With other words: Don't force this as Ranking Criteria but as Guideline.
Lazy mapper: "It's a Guideline, it's not mandatory, let's keep doing two-diff mapsets."
About the Marathon observation, I think middle players could enjoy a Marathon at their level, it's just my idea as a player.

Another option is let to the XAT members look if the song doesn't support more than two difficulties, but I think some of you won't agree too much with this.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

DakeDekaane wrote:

Lazy mapper: "It's a Guideline, it's not mandatory, let's keep doing two-diff mapsets."
Guidelines must be followed unless a convincing, valid reason is given.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Loctav wrote:

Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
I can say the same about the need to map lowdiffs for speedcore or 5 minute dragonforce maps.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/206275
can you say with a straight face that low difficulties for this song would not just be easy for the sake of being easy and would not fit the song at all.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
BPM does not tie into difficulty at all. A 1/1 rhythm on 60bpm has the same "difficulty level" as a 1/1 rhythm on 400bpm.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Try mapping a lowdiff for this song and you'll see why it's impossible. There is no way to make a good lowdiff for this. Sure I can throw some slow distance snapped sliders and call it a map but it won't have any connection to the song.

And if you're going to say it's possible, then I don't see why a high diff (at least an [Insane]) for these for example isn't possible
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81262
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81924
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44748
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75451
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/60721
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/75938
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81915
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71883
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/57984

There are a lot of mappers who could easily make a good insane for any of those. You want valid reasons? This allows maps to appeal to a broader audience. Isn't this the point of difficulty spreads? Why do the rules only go one way.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
You see, difficulty level is relative to the BPM, A 60 BPM Easy wont be the same as a 400 BPM Easy, yet a 400 BPM Easy would be easier than a 400 BPM Normal which is easier than a 400 BPM Hard.

People should start thinking that a difficulty is a combination of the song BPM and Difficulty Level is portrayed at, this happens on every official rythm game, not that every Easy is gonna be the same regardless of BPM.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Blue Dragon wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
This map is reason enough for this rule not to be changed. Remember, rules are absolute. This map is lucky to have such drain time, else there would have to be another diff (with this new rule in effect 2 more) diffs. I can't really picture anything harder than this diff, which is already pretty easy for a hard, and having anything easier than a normal would be really boring, especially if the normal would be deemed easy enough for the lowest diff of the whole set.

I am okay with having this as a guideline though, to always try to map a spread (ENH or NHI). Remember, guidelines should still be respected, but there are exceptions allowed. Treating those exceptions might seem subjective, but if you ask me, if every beat of the song is mapped and the diff is not hard enough, that stops being subjective and more than 2 diffs shouldn't be enforced.

Obviously there might be certain songs which can be extremely hard to map easier diffs for, but I am out of solutions for this one, just because a mapper X can't map a diff, doesn't mean a mapper Y can't either. I cannot judge this.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Sakura wrote:

You see, difficulty level is relative to the BPM, A 60 BPM Easy wont be the same as a 400 BPM Easy, yet a 400 BPM Easy would be easier than a 400 BPM Normal which is easier than a 400 BPM Hard.

People should start thinking that a difficulty is a combination of the song BPM and Difficulty Level is portrayed at, this happens on every official rythm game, not that every Easy is gonna be the same regardless of BPM.
So can I rename RLC's diff to [Easy], [Extra] to [Normal], [490 style] to [Hard] and go for rank?
this is what I understand from your statement
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Depends on the map, if it's 1/1 mapped or even 2/1 mapped without overlaps, streams (1/2 or higher since it's supposed to be an Easy), or jumps then i'd say it's fine even if it's faster BPM. Seriously difficulty making guidelines should be related to the snap and not to the time difference between notes imo.

In either case that's going a bit off subject, Can we agree on having as guideline the 3 diff minimum then?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
The topic was started not even 24 hours ago. Give it a week or two.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Lavender Town's hard diff is widely hated by 'pro' players and it's not such a good map.. It's just unnecessairly hard because of the small circles.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
How about a guideline that a map needs to be mapped both easy as possible AND hard as possible
So that NM/HD spreads can't slip into ranking when a song can obviously be mapped harder
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.

And at the same time, don't ask for ES/NM diffs on a song that really doesn't call for it. i.e. when a 1/1 diff for the song would still be harder than most ranked [Hard]s.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Aqo wrote:

How about a guideline that a map needs to be mapped both easy as possible AND hard as possible
So that NM/HD spreads can't slip into ranking when a song can obviously be mapped harder
If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.

And at the same time, don't ask for ES/NM diffs on a song that really doesn't call for it. i.e. when a 1/1 diff for the song would still be harder than most ranked [Hard]s.
It would be perfect if BATs wouldn't let maps from their 'friends' bypass this because "they don't think it's necessary", like it happens with many unranked maps nowadays.
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido

Loctav wrote:

Hard difficulties would turn out to be mapped for the sake of being hard, not for the sake to fit the music. Do not enforce high difficulties, if the song can not clearly provide it.
Right! Being the main way of this, Overmapped "beats" is bad since it just break the osu! (and general rhythm game) soul -- that's let the user have fun by tapping the circles/anything on the screen according to the song beats! Overmapping destroys and frustrates this, since the "beats" just not exists on the song (even though it can be inside the mapper's imagination).

There are other ways to make harder maps. For example: in an Easy diff you should "keep the path" anywhere is possible on the map, and on Hard you could "free your wild mapper inside" by making several "path breaks" and a lot of symmetry patterns into map.

Once I tried a secret GD to Capital Inicial - Natasha, my GD was a pathy map that's easier than the [Hard] and harder than [Normal]. While the original [Hard] is surely a fully "path breaking" map .

EDIT: I'm waiting for two-diff Marathons --- they COULD exist yeah, since the modders could allow themselves to mod just one of them.
Last edited by Alarido , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

cFiszpan wrote:

There are other ways to make harder maps. For example: in an Easy diff you should "keep the path" anywhere is possible on the map, and on Hard you could "free your wild mapper inside" by making several "path breaks" and a lot of symmetry patterns into map.
Uuh.

Anyway, I agree with Aqo, but it would be really hard to enforce that, I expect mappers to insist their songs can't be mapped easier/harder.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
After discussion, I really don't mind if it's a rule or guideline, as long it encourages the use of a larger spread in mapsets it's fine, as Aqo said, a broader audience should enjoy the song, not only for pro players, also for beginners with no rhythm skills. Should I change something?
Xakyrie
667 posts
Joined February 2011
Xakyrie

Zarerion wrote:

Anyway, I agree with Aqo, but it would be really hard to enforce that, I expect mappers to insist their songs can't be mapped easier/harder.
Not always is this the case. Do you want to see maps of >120bpm with unfitting slider velocity, density and difficulty? I wouldn't find a map that goes against the current of the song very enjoyable. I guess you could say the same for <200bpm, but like it has been said before, it's totally possible to map easys for these. You have tons to map to, you just need to find a basic rhythm to start and use your mapping abilities to create some variety within the map. The relative difficulty needs to reflect the song itself. You abide by the rules of the song. The only problem with this opinion is that difficulty and fittingness are partially subjective. Some people might agree a map that generally follows the song's rhythm while incorporating a different one (the one the mapper sees fit) is appropriate. Others may disagree and say that the ceiling would be 100% what the song allows. Your palette is limited to the choice you made in song. Different songs have different ranges. How do we determine the difference between an appropriate insane difficulty and a completely overmapped one that's unplayable? How will we know it's okay to disregard the need for an easy before it's absolutely boring?

In any case, this thread hasn't been up for long, so don't jump to conclusions yet. Let some more community voices be heard. Currently I'm a bit hesitant considering this will give people the idea that it's okay to map insanes for something that doesn't need one. If anything, a guideline would work best seeing as it's a common belief that not all songs allow for the appropriate or desired difficulty spread you ask for.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpm
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35952 , take a look.
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido

Aqo wrote:

If the mapper can't do it on their own, wait for GDs.
:idea: Good idea :idea: although some mappers want have the 'glory' of making their own harder diffs.

and collabs are good too (: (shared glory is better than a solitary one imo)
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I agree with making 3 adjacent difficulties the minimum for a spread. We shouldn't ask taiko difficulties to get a 3rd one (Muzukashi's are not that horrible to learn on once you have some rhythm game experience and understand the Don-Kat thing), but for osu! a full spread is very important. Slow songs that are hard to make insanes for can settle for the E/M/H when dragonforceguitarsoloheavyomg300bpm songs can possibly remove the easy and have a M/H/I spread. I just dislike having 2 difficulty spreads because there is NO reason why you cannot have either an easy or an insane in your map.

Kinda contradicting my point, but I would probably settle for two osu! difficulties ONLY IF it has two other game mode difficulties. If we are combating laziness in the mapping community, This would work. If we just set a minimum of 3 osu difficulties or 4 total difficulties, that would probably work.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Louis Cyphre wrote:

If a mapper can't make a high diff for their mapset, ask for a GD. It is always possible to make a higher diff, even if it's a calm 60bpm
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35952 , take a look.
Yup, 80% (if more) of these kind of Songs should only have two Diffs because a third (Easy/Insane) would be out of place and just stupid. An Easy/Insane Diff would be here just ridiculous.

and yes, Taiko should not really affect to this Topic since it's a almost completely different "system" there.
Last edited by Stefan , edited 1 time in total.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
An Easy Diff would be here just ridiculous.
Erm, what?
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Yeah it's not really fitting with your Post at all but just saying that Insane or Easy, depends on which song, cannot be always mapped. I've fixed my Post.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Louis Cyphre
As i said, i don't believe that it's impossible to make an Easy difficulty on any song/music. Well unless it has 600+ bpm...
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
The way that I see it is thus: Some songs flat-out do not suit an insane map, because that is almost certain to feel overmapped in regards to the feel of the song. In regards to easy, it is always possible to break down even the most ridiculous track into simpler components, even if it means focusing on nothing close than the downbeats.

The skill in mapping any difficulty is identifying which parts are important, as opposed to slathering patterns over every note duration. This needs to scale to easier difficulties, because they need more space between patterns. Admittedly, normal difficulties are generally quite playable to many beginners, but I have seen people struggle with easy diffs as well. It's about providing the widest spread possible, just in case a complete novice decides suddenly that they want to play a particular song.

The whole thing with scalability is that there's enough leeway for one song itself to be enjoyed by both a complete novice and a seasoned high-ranker. I didn't sit down and write a thesis about this sort of thing. It's honest-to-goodness common sense. If you can't understand that, then I have bad news for you.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
if you cant get a nice diff spread then dont go for rank? not every song is fit to be made into a proper beatmap
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Blue Dragon wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

I totally agree with you

I think the special thing on osu maps are especially the Insane ones. Of course there should be enough Normal / Hard difficulties. But please.. make an Insane at least.. i dunno if it's only me - but a hard (even with double time) most of the time seems pretty boring, and it just sux if I like the song. . .
It's not always possible.
Try making insanes for songs like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12282
i said there should be enough normal / hard difficulites, and of course, if you can't map an insane to a song you should leave it^^
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
That's just stupid and completely breaks the point of "osu!, where you can make a beatmap of your songs!"
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos

Irreversible wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

It's not always possible.
Try making insanes for songs like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70248
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12282
i said there should be enough normal / hard difficulites, and of course, if you can't map an insane to a song you should leave it^^
The second one could have a hard, and the first one could have an easy. Not every song can have an Insane difficulty, but 90% of the ones that can't have them can have a perfectly good easy difficulty. All this rule is asking for is "Make the minimum number of difficulties 3 instead of 2", not "Every map needs an insane". Maybe there are a few songs that can't get 3 difficulties made. When this happens, I would ask myself: "Is this a song fit for a rhythm game?" and "Is this song too simple for what I am trying to do?".

Sure, you should be able to map whatever song you want, and there is nothing stopping it. However, the RANKING process is a separate system altogether. It is a standard for quality and competitive play. When you download a ranked map, you expect certain things out of it. One of these things (in my opinion) should be that they have three difficulties, to ensure that everyone can enjoy (not just play) a map. What I mean by enjoy is, quite simply, having fun. An easy is there so beginners can have fun playing along to their favorite songs, while Insanes are there to let experienced players test their skills and play the song's rhythms to their fullest potential. If a song can't do one of those, fine. Just compensate for it in the other one.
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