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[Proposal] Adjusting the song cut guideline

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Total Posts
41
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
360 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

adjustments to cutting songs


As seen with the recent issues revolving around various cut versions of songs and a general community distaste for cutting songs and removing notable sections i propose we should reword/adjust the current guideline of. this targets those removing notable / memorable sections of songs and vastly removes a lot of leeway when cutting songs to under 60 seconds.

Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's intro/verse/chorus/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

to

Cut songs should maintain all notable/distinct sections of a song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's sections intro/verse/chorus/bridge/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

keeping this as a guideline/slightly vauge still allows for leeway in cases of where a song is overly repetitive and the guidelines can be broken for valid reasoning and can be dealt with on a case to case bases.

Current proposed change

[notice]Cut songs should maintain all notable/distinct sections of a song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's sections intro/verse/chorus/bridge/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.


edit history:
1. formating
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 3 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Why remove the "full" part in "full song"?
Akito
138 posts
Joined January 2015
Akito
yes ban cuts
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
162 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
yeah, not a fan of cuts in general since they come off as disrespectful to the artist, this should hopefully minimize the issue
Karxy
59 posts
Joined July 2016
Karxy
no i can't map full what will i map now
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
The only issue I see is what would happen to cuts that aren't remaking the official cut but are just shortening the song while not trying to be actively stupid.

Ah I'm not great at wording this but I would say something like beatmapsets/1266361#osu/2631931 is not remaking the official TV Size cut but it also doesn't include the songs bridge but I doubt the rule is trying to prevent this kind of cut.

beatmapsets/986934#osu/2064555 is another case of a cut that excludes the bridge but no one I THINK would take issue with it.

beatmapsets/351825#osu/775348 cuts out like 3 minutes of the song including a full chorus and bridge (im not sure what the section is called you can compare it to beatmapsets/1062817#osu/2225596 (to be fair this cut sucks cuz the fade out but that aside its completely fine)

Like all three of these exclude their songs bridges which would break the guideline and since it's such a common occurance to have these kind of cuts it would end up being ignored.


to add even more probably dumb statements to my paragraphs

I know you all hate cuts but if TV sizes are fine in the sense of giving the general impression of the song to a listener than the cuts I pointed out should be sufficient in terms of representing their songs. So in my eyes this would effective kill all cutting outside of official cuts through the technicality of cuts not including ALL major/distinct sections of a song.



MORE EXAMPLES \O/
beatmapsets/395846 this cuts off about 50 seconds at the end as you can hear from https://youtu.be/qodwmIp_txw?t=183 but most people don't know this is a cut and this would technically be very unrankable with this proposed guideline change and the cut version is 3 minutes so while I know this has nothing to length its still something I felt worth mentioning
Last edited by Nevo , edited 4 times in total.
achyoo
Nomination Assessment Team
458 posts
Joined January 2016
achyoo
agree
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
360 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

The only issue I see is what would happen to cuts that aren't remaking the official cut but are just shortening the song while not trying to be actively stupid.

Ah I'm not great at wording this but I would say something like beatmapsets/1266361#osu/2631931 is not remaking the official TV Size cut but it also doesn't include the songs bridge but I doubt the rule is trying to prevent this kind of cut.

beatmapsets/986934#osu/2064555 is another case of a cut that excludes the bridge but no one I THINK would take issue with it.

beatmapsets/351825#osu/775348 cuts out like 3 minutes of the song including a full chorus and bridge (im not sure what the section is called you can compare it to beatmapsets/1062817#osu/2225596 (to be fair this cut sucks cuz the fade out but that aside its completely fine)
basically this is targeting anything that removes any section completely from a song, so say you have a song with 6 sections we'll list them as A B C D A B basically removing the last two sections bringing it down to A B C D would be fine but removing the third would be against this as D is a unique section and changes the song by removing a notable / distinct section, songs usually arnt composed like this but rather more similar to A B C A B D E so this basically stops alot of cuts as general consensus i got from feedback was cuts are disrespectful to an artist and song as well as to be frank and in my own personal opinion lazy. but my opinion isnt really the be all end all and there are cases here of a song being too repetitive i.e. A B A B A B A B you could cut it down to A B. lastly this doesnt target tv size game size ect as theyre offical cuts
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 2 times in total.
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
The examples I provided all cut out unique sections being the bridge or the entire middle vocal section on world lampshade so going off the wording of the guideline they wouldn't be rankable as (i might be wrong) they are effectively taking a song that's ABCD ABCD E ABCD and going to ABCD thus killing E (again im not great with letters and junk but killing the bridge is what i'm getting at)

I'm using TV Sizes as a point since they exist and should be used as a form of what is acceptable at the minimum for a cut as they are official (and fairly standardized)
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
360 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

The examples I provided all cut out unique sections being the bridge or the entire middle vocal section on world lampshade so going off the wording of the guideline they wouldn't be rankable as (i might be wrong) they are effectively taking a song that's ABCD ABCD E ABCD and going to ABCD thus killing E (again im not great with letters and junk but killing the bridge is what i'm getting at)

I'm using TV Sizes as a point since they exist and should be used as a form of what is acceptable at the minimum for a cut as they are official (and fairly standardized)
yes that is the general goal of this change to make stuff like that unrankable if the part is not mapped / included atleast once, tv size are acceptable because they are offical not because of how much they cut
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
I know it's official and all but I think the TV Sizes should be a sort of precedent of what's technically fine. Since in a TV Size you don't hear a songs bridge again I know its official but what this proposal does is effective kill the VAST majority of cut songs.

While I disagree with something like The Big Black (TV Size) I don't think killing off most cuts is a great idea which how the rule is worded would result in.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
360 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

I know it's official and all but I think the TV Sizes should be a sort of precedent of what's technically fine. Since in a TV Size you don't hear a songs bridge again I know its official but what this proposal does is effective kill the VAST majority of cut songs.

While I disagree with something like The Big Black (TV Size) I don't think killing off most cuts is a great idea which how the rule is worded would result in.
i think killing off cuts for the most part is fine, its a guideline for cases in which its negligible and arguable as to why cutting a section is fine i.e. the chorus is only slightly different or something.

Cuts in general have little in the way of memorable/valuable factors to the the majority of players and mappers outside of drama or high pp scores. If you look at memorable maps with things such as mythologias end, cant defeat airman, scarlet rose, furioso melodia to rattle off some of the personal ones that come to mind and then looking through the top favourite maps ranked, theres so few cuts that actually are in themselves memorable exlcuding maybe sotarks quaver for the reason i mentioned, and no title merely from the farmability and large amount of generally comfortable diffs but i digress.

Its not like we're getting rid of these high pp memorable short maps. tv size are more then enough. With maps that we all know and love to hate such as haitai, black rover, literally any sao opening. Overall removing cuts removes a large swath of bloated content that contributes very little to mapping and playing, in fact im more then willing to argue how it does more harm but ill refrain unless you would like me to elaborate
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 2 times in total.
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,176 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
In all honesty cut songs really aren't prevalent enough to be considered bloat. For the point of memorable maps you could (i know your not) say well any map that isn't going to become iconic doesn't need to be ranked.

I would say though that lots of these pp maps are played a lot because they are farmy and stuff with things like you mentioned there's a decent amount of very well known unofficial cut songs

(you mentioned some of these I know)
list of well known cut songs with over 10million plays
No title
Quaver
Kira Kira Days
Cold Green Eyes
Vagrant
Give it Up
Colorful
Miiro (i mean idk if this counts since its a mashup)
Remote Control (def iconic)
Senbonzakura (Short Ver.) (i could be wrong here)

While they are mostly pp pp is a large part of osu and its history for more than now half its life

God that sounds stupid saying it like that lmfao

but technically speaking they are all more played and as depressing it sounds they are more talked about now than those iconic maps god this hurts


I understand the intention but I just disagree. I don't think removing cuts is beneficial for the game. I also don't think we need ringtone size cuts either as I think those will hurt the game. I think it's best to have a fine balance which I think currently we have. Even looking at the recently ranked maps there's been 4 cut vers ranked in the last 50 maps and 9 out of the last 100 ranked maps so this isn't some horrific systemic issue or anything that we allow cuts (also fun fact half these cut vers are for mania and ctb XD)
Lafayla
Beatmap Nominator
348 posts
Joined December 2014
Lafayla
Agree, sounds good
IOException
479 posts
Joined May 2013
IOException
I see no problems with letting cuts get ranked, but I think the distaste usually comes from a sense of short maps somehow "cheating the system" by letting players spam retry and get rng scores, and as a result rack up large playcounts for the maps.

If the majority of the playerbase favors playing short maps over playing long maps, it just means the consistency bonus in pp isn't enough for longer maps to seem appealing to players. If this is truly the cause of the concern and distaste for short maps, it seems like we just need to keep nerfing short maps until the playerbase comes to value consistency to the point where full songs are balanced to give as much pp.

U can't really change the fact that players will mainly play songs for pp (sometimes motivated by latest anime show or pop songs but for the most part pp), so might as well take that into account while considering rules like this. Once this gets passed, mappers who are motivated by playcount and pp will just look for other avenues of getting short songs ranked (i.e doing a bit of mixing and calling it a "remix", just getting shorter songs in general, etc)

If players really like the short version of the song, then they'll still play it even though it's not worth as much pp as the longer version of the song. But if not, we will see the short map playcount start decreasing since it's no longer artificially being inflated.

In short my stance on this is: I don't care if it gets passed, it's not really solving the root of the problem, just changing it.
Last edited by IOException , edited 3 times in total.
Kudosu
Beatmap Nominator
109 posts
Joined October 2017
Kudosu
agree with proposal as something needs to be done against abuse like horrible kids, but i think it's a bit harsh against "fan made tv sizes" kinda cuts since they omit bridges which are distinct part of the songs. im not a fan of unofficial cuts, but those are popular amongst both mappers and players that thinks short songs are better for rhythm games (and that's a big chunk of the community).

even if i dont agree with them i'd say we should let them keep doing that kind of stuff since when reasonable (eg: beatmapsets/1251736) these have nothing to do with content bloat and still represents the whole song well. trying to enforce something under beliefs like respecting the artist (and effort for some) is kinda stupid (if its about respecting the artist cuts should be banned altogether since any cut is a disrespect to the artist's work).
Last edited by Kudosu , edited 1 time in total.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
360 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Kudosu wrote:

agree with proposal as something needs to be done against abuse like horrible kids, but i think it's a bit harsh against "fan made tv sizes" kinda cuts since they omit bridges which are distinct part of the songs. im not a fan of unofficial cuts, but those are popular amongst both mappers and players that thinks short songs are better for rhythm games (and that's a big chunk of the community).

even if i dont agree with them i'd say we should let them keep doing that kind of stuff since when reasonable (eg: beatmapsets/1251736) these have nothing to do with content bloat and still represents the whole song well. trying to enforce something under beliefs like respecting the artist (and effort for some) is kinda stupid (if its about respecting the artist cuts should be banned altogether since any cut is a disrespect to the artist's work).
yeah this is the general response im starting to see been talking with nevo in dms since hes alot more in with how and why people cut songs (seeing as he does it) then i am and has has more knowledge on how theyre recently being done, we're working on seeing if theres a way to change this proposal to be a bit more leniant as currently its a half measure of basically saying cuts are not rankable which even if im fine with a large portion of the community isnt
Kudosu
Beatmap Nominator
109 posts
Joined October 2017
Kudosu
the ideal thing to do would be to keep the current loose guideline and trust bns with keeping abuse from getting qfed / treating it case by case with vetoes but that's too much work & too much to expect from people
PaRaDogi
579 posts
Joined November 2012
PaRaDogi
I think its impossible to set a specifc rule that makes everyone happy, imo common sense should apply and obvious cases of abuse should be stopped as example "horrible kids". Im not a fan of cut songs but in cases like repeating songs, fan made tv size songs etc, i cant see a problem. Complete ban of cut songs will creat massive backlash from the community. I say bns should be more open to veto obvious cases of bad cut songs because i never see anyone realy complain about it.
Last edited by PaRaDogi , edited 1 time in total.
Morrighan
116 posts
Joined April 2018
Morrighan
ok but what about cases where theres a full minute or so of unmappable ambient noise or vocals that are literally just talking, i dont think things like that NEED to be preserved in a cut
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