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[Proposal] Adjusting the song cut guideline

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Total Posts
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Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

adjustments to cutting songs


As seen with the recent issues revolving around various cut versions of songs and a general community distaste for cutting songs and removing notable sections i propose we should reword/adjust the current guideline of. this targets those removing notable / memorable sections of songs and vastly removes a lot of leeway when cutting songs to under 60 seconds.

Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's intro/verse/chorus/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

to

Cut songs should maintain all notable/distinct sections of a song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's sections intro/verse/chorus/bridge/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.

keeping this as a guideline/slightly vauge still allows for leeway in cases of where a song is overly repetitive and the guidelines can be broken for valid reasoning and can be dealt with on a case to case bases.

Current proposed change

[notice]Cut songs should maintain all notable/distinct sections of a song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's sections intro/verse/chorus/bridge/outro) can lead to mispresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts.


edit history:
1. formating
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 3 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Why remove the "full" part in "full song"?
Akito
138 posts
Joined January 2015
Akito
yes ban cuts
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
yeah, not a fan of cuts in general since they come off as disrespectful to the artist, this should hopefully minimize the issue
Karxy
59 posts
Joined July 2016
Karxy
no i can't map full what will i map now
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,184 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
The only issue I see is what would happen to cuts that aren't remaking the official cut but are just shortening the song while not trying to be actively stupid.

Ah I'm not great at wording this but I would say something like beatmapsets/1266361#osu/2631931 is not remaking the official TV Size cut but it also doesn't include the songs bridge but I doubt the rule is trying to prevent this kind of cut.

beatmapsets/986934#osu/2064555 is another case of a cut that excludes the bridge but no one I THINK would take issue with it.

beatmapsets/351825#osu/775348 cuts out like 3 minutes of the song including a full chorus and bridge (im not sure what the section is called you can compare it to beatmapsets/1062817#osu/2225596 (to be fair this cut sucks cuz the fade out but that aside its completely fine)

Like all three of these exclude their songs bridges which would break the guideline and since it's such a common occurance to have these kind of cuts it would end up being ignored.


to add even more probably dumb statements to my paragraphs

I know you all hate cuts but if TV sizes are fine in the sense of giving the general impression of the song to a listener than the cuts I pointed out should be sufficient in terms of representing their songs. So in my eyes this would effective kill all cutting outside of official cuts through the technicality of cuts not including ALL major/distinct sections of a song.



MORE EXAMPLES \O/
beatmapsets/395846 this cuts off about 50 seconds at the end as you can hear from https://youtu.be/qodwmIp_txw?t=183 but most people don't know this is a cut and this would technically be very unrankable with this proposed guideline change and the cut version is 3 minutes so while I know this has nothing to length its still something I felt worth mentioning
Last edited by Nevo , edited 4 times in total.
achyoo
osu! Alumni
442 posts
Joined January 2016
achyoo
agree
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

The only issue I see is what would happen to cuts that aren't remaking the official cut but are just shortening the song while not trying to be actively stupid.

Ah I'm not great at wording this but I would say something like beatmapsets/1266361#osu/2631931 is not remaking the official TV Size cut but it also doesn't include the songs bridge but I doubt the rule is trying to prevent this kind of cut.

beatmapsets/986934#osu/2064555 is another case of a cut that excludes the bridge but no one I THINK would take issue with it.

beatmapsets/351825#osu/775348 cuts out like 3 minutes of the song including a full chorus and bridge (im not sure what the section is called you can compare it to beatmapsets/1062817#osu/2225596 (to be fair this cut sucks cuz the fade out but that aside its completely fine)
basically this is targeting anything that removes any section completely from a song, so say you have a song with 6 sections we'll list them as A B C D A B basically removing the last two sections bringing it down to A B C D would be fine but removing the third would be against this as D is a unique section and changes the song by removing a notable / distinct section, songs usually arnt composed like this but rather more similar to A B C A B D E so this basically stops alot of cuts as general consensus i got from feedback was cuts are disrespectful to an artist and song as well as to be frank and in my own personal opinion lazy. but my opinion isnt really the be all end all and there are cases here of a song being too repetitive i.e. A B A B A B A B you could cut it down to A B. lastly this doesnt target tv size game size ect as theyre offical cuts
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 2 times in total.
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,184 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
The examples I provided all cut out unique sections being the bridge or the entire middle vocal section on world lampshade so going off the wording of the guideline they wouldn't be rankable as (i might be wrong) they are effectively taking a song that's ABCD ABCD E ABCD and going to ABCD thus killing E (again im not great with letters and junk but killing the bridge is what i'm getting at)

I'm using TV Sizes as a point since they exist and should be used as a form of what is acceptable at the minimum for a cut as they are official (and fairly standardized)
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

The examples I provided all cut out unique sections being the bridge or the entire middle vocal section on world lampshade so going off the wording of the guideline they wouldn't be rankable as (i might be wrong) they are effectively taking a song that's ABCD ABCD E ABCD and going to ABCD thus killing E (again im not great with letters and junk but killing the bridge is what i'm getting at)

I'm using TV Sizes as a point since they exist and should be used as a form of what is acceptable at the minimum for a cut as they are official (and fairly standardized)
yes that is the general goal of this change to make stuff like that unrankable if the part is not mapped / included atleast once, tv size are acceptable because they are offical not because of how much they cut
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,184 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
I know it's official and all but I think the TV Sizes should be a sort of precedent of what's technically fine. Since in a TV Size you don't hear a songs bridge again I know its official but what this proposal does is effective kill the VAST majority of cut songs.

While I disagree with something like The Big Black (TV Size) I don't think killing off most cuts is a great idea which how the rule is worded would result in.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Nevo wrote:

I know it's official and all but I think the TV Sizes should be a sort of precedent of what's technically fine. Since in a TV Size you don't hear a songs bridge again I know its official but what this proposal does is effective kill the VAST majority of cut songs.

While I disagree with something like The Big Black (TV Size) I don't think killing off most cuts is a great idea which how the rule is worded would result in.
i think killing off cuts for the most part is fine, its a guideline for cases in which its negligible and arguable as to why cutting a section is fine i.e. the chorus is only slightly different or something.

Cuts in general have little in the way of memorable/valuable factors to the the majority of players and mappers outside of drama or high pp scores. If you look at memorable maps with things such as mythologias end, cant defeat airman, scarlet rose, furioso melodia to rattle off some of the personal ones that come to mind and then looking through the top favourite maps ranked, theres so few cuts that actually are in themselves memorable exlcuding maybe sotarks quaver for the reason i mentioned, and no title merely from the farmability and large amount of generally comfortable diffs but i digress.

Its not like we're getting rid of these high pp memorable short maps. tv size are more then enough. With maps that we all know and love to hate such as haitai, black rover, literally any sao opening. Overall removing cuts removes a large swath of bloated content that contributes very little to mapping and playing, in fact im more then willing to argue how it does more harm but ill refrain unless you would like me to elaborate
Last edited by Sparhten , edited 2 times in total.
Nevo
Global Moderator
1,184 posts
Joined November 2015
Nevo
In all honesty cut songs really aren't prevalent enough to be considered bloat. For the point of memorable maps you could (i know your not) say well any map that isn't going to become iconic doesn't need to be ranked.

I would say though that lots of these pp maps are played a lot because they are farmy and stuff with things like you mentioned there's a decent amount of very well known unofficial cut songs

(you mentioned some of these I know)
list of well known cut songs with over 10million plays
No title
Quaver
Kira Kira Days
Cold Green Eyes
Vagrant
Give it Up
Colorful
Miiro (i mean idk if this counts since its a mashup)
Remote Control (def iconic)
Senbonzakura (Short Ver.) (i could be wrong here)

While they are mostly pp pp is a large part of osu and its history for more than now half its life

God that sounds stupid saying it like that lmfao

but technically speaking they are all more played and as depressing it sounds they are more talked about now than those iconic maps god this hurts


I understand the intention but I just disagree. I don't think removing cuts is beneficial for the game. I also don't think we need ringtone size cuts either as I think those will hurt the game. I think it's best to have a fine balance which I think currently we have. Even looking at the recently ranked maps there's been 4 cut vers ranked in the last 50 maps and 9 out of the last 100 ranked maps so this isn't some horrific systemic issue or anything that we allow cuts (also fun fact half these cut vers are for mania and ctb XD)
Lafayla
Nomination Assessment Team
350 posts
Joined December 2014
Lafayla
Agree, sounds good
IOException
485 posts
Joined May 2013
IOException
I see no problems with letting cuts get ranked, but I think the distaste usually comes from a sense of short maps somehow "cheating the system" by letting players spam retry and get rng scores, and as a result rack up large playcounts for the maps.

If the majority of the playerbase favors playing short maps over playing long maps, it just means the consistency bonus in pp isn't enough for longer maps to seem appealing to players. If this is truly the cause of the concern and distaste for short maps, it seems like we just need to keep nerfing short maps until the playerbase comes to value consistency to the point where full songs are balanced to give as much pp.

U can't really change the fact that players will mainly play songs for pp (sometimes motivated by latest anime show or pop songs but for the most part pp), so might as well take that into account while considering rules like this. Once this gets passed, mappers who are motivated by playcount and pp will just look for other avenues of getting short songs ranked (i.e doing a bit of mixing and calling it a "remix", just getting shorter songs in general, etc)

If players really like the short version of the song, then they'll still play it even though it's not worth as much pp as the longer version of the song. But if not, we will see the short map playcount start decreasing since it's no longer artificially being inflated.

In short my stance on this is: I don't care if it gets passed, it's not really solving the root of the problem, just changing it.
Last edited by IOException , edited 3 times in total.
Kudosu
109 posts
Joined October 2017
Kudosu
agree with proposal as something needs to be done against abuse like horrible kids, but i think it's a bit harsh against "fan made tv sizes" kinda cuts since they omit bridges which are distinct part of the songs. im not a fan of unofficial cuts, but those are popular amongst both mappers and players that thinks short songs are better for rhythm games (and that's a big chunk of the community).

even if i dont agree with them i'd say we should let them keep doing that kind of stuff since when reasonable (eg: beatmapsets/1251736) these have nothing to do with content bloat and still represents the whole song well. trying to enforce something under beliefs like respecting the artist (and effort for some) is kinda stupid (if its about respecting the artist cuts should be banned altogether since any cut is a disrespect to the artist's work).
Last edited by Kudosu , edited 1 time in total.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Kudosu wrote:

agree with proposal as something needs to be done against abuse like horrible kids, but i think it's a bit harsh against "fan made tv sizes" kinda cuts since they omit bridges which are distinct part of the songs. im not a fan of unofficial cuts, but those are popular amongst both mappers and players that thinks short songs are better for rhythm games (and that's a big chunk of the community).

even if i dont agree with them i'd say we should let them keep doing that kind of stuff since when reasonable (eg: beatmapsets/1251736) these have nothing to do with content bloat and still represents the whole song well. trying to enforce something under beliefs like respecting the artist (and effort for some) is kinda stupid (if its about respecting the artist cuts should be banned altogether since any cut is a disrespect to the artist's work).
yeah this is the general response im starting to see been talking with nevo in dms since hes alot more in with how and why people cut songs (seeing as he does it) then i am and has has more knowledge on how theyre recently being done, we're working on seeing if theres a way to change this proposal to be a bit more leniant as currently its a half measure of basically saying cuts are not rankable which even if im fine with a large portion of the community isnt
Kudosu
109 posts
Joined October 2017
Kudosu
the ideal thing to do would be to keep the current loose guideline and trust bns with keeping abuse from getting qfed / treating it case by case with vetoes but that's too much work & too much to expect from people
Kojio
682 posts
Joined November 2012
Kojio
I think its impossible to set a specifc rule that makes everyone happy, imo common sense should apply and obvious cases of abuse should be stopped as example "horrible kids". Im not a fan of cut songs but in cases like repeating songs, fan made tv size songs etc, i cant see a problem. Complete ban of cut songs will creat massive backlash from the community. I say bns should be more open to veto obvious cases of bad cut songs because i never see anyone realy complain about it.
Last edited by Kojio , edited 1 time in total.
Morrighan
116 posts
Joined April 2018
Morrighan
ok but what about cases where theres a full minute or so of unmappable ambient noise or vocals that are literally just talking, i dont think things like that NEED to be preserved in a cut
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz

Morrighan wrote:

ok but what about cases where theres a full minute or so of unmappable ambient noise or vocals that are literally just talking, i dont think things like that NEED to be preserved in a cut
that's why it's a guideline
Crissa
850 posts
Joined December 2014
Crissa
Looks fine, keeping the whole song intact would remove a lot of room for people to cut songs but at the same time it keeps the quality and integrity of the song entirely, would be completely understandable to cut songs that repeat themselves a lot the same way TV Size does.

On the other hand i can see people trying to get over the guideline by cutting sections that are similar between each other, while being unique on their own, having 2 very similar bridges isn't that rare so idk how we could handle that more than just case by case, which is what we do now anyways.

*The new wording seems much clearer than what we have currently so i agree with it.
Last edited by Crissa , edited 1 time in total.
NeKroMan4ik
Elite Nominator
428 posts
Joined December 2017
NeKroMan4ik
agree with sparhten and crissa.

from myself I would add that specific examples of what kind of cuts are allowed/prohibited can be included in the guideline change (links to specific maps or that A B C D A B example). current proposal is much clearer than what we have now, but adding some examples wouldn't hurt anyway :shrug:
Dialect
1,535 posts
Joined May 2018
Dialect
i don't really see much reason to do this.

flash back to when there was a proposal to prevent maps under 1 minute from being ranked. there were good arguments, but it all boiled down to "assume all short maps are pp maps and they are lazy creations by the mapper"

this is what's happening here. i believe it's moreso a score inflation problem, and if so, we should focus on nerfing those maps to prevent bloated content.

i don't believe big black should've gotten vetoed for being a cut ver. now the song was already short, and personally, shortening it couldn't really be a good idea, but personally, i can get behind why sotarks cut that part out. it's sort of unsatisfying to hear, and it's especially harder to map on easier diffs.
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz

Li Syaoran wrote:

i don't really see much reason to do this.

flash back to when there was a proposal to prevent maps under 1 minute from being ranked. there were good arguments, but it all boiled down to "assume all short maps are pp maps and they are lazy creations by the mapper"

this is what's happening here. i believe it's moreso a score inflation problem, and if so, we should focus on nerfing those maps to prevent bloated content.

i don't believe big black should've gotten vetoed for being a cut ver. now the song was already short, and personally, shortening it couldn't really be a good idea, but personally, i can get behind why sotarks cut that part out. it's sort of unsatisfying to hear, and it's especially harder to map on easier diffs.
the difference between disallowing short maps and disallowing cuts is that cuts are disrespectful to the artist. imagine if you made a gd for someone and they took out half of what you made just because they felt like it. or if you drew a full art piece and someone cut out a significant part of it (like a girl's face that's prominent in the image) and showed it off to other people.

it's not how those works of art are meant to be presented, and it goes against the artist's intention.

obviously there will still be exceptions and actual strong reasons to cut songs and go against the intent of the artist (which is why this'll remain a guideline), but in general we should try to respect the art that we use in our game
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze
I don't agree with the opinion that cuts are supposedly disrespectful to the artist at all. If you think altering a song like this is disrespectful, shouldn't (Sped Up Ver.) (Nightcore Mix) and even potentially song edits/remixes (GoldenWolf edit, etc.) have the same issue? I don't think any of this should be banned. People should be allowed to rank and play what they like.

It isn't disrespectful to the artist of a song if a 20-second clip of it is used in a YouTube video for example, because that's a context where only using part of a song makes sense. Beatmaps are much the same, because songs are not made to be osu! maps. Cutting them, speeding them up, etc. is just adjusting them to provide a more enjoyable gameplay experience or at least one that the mapper prefers.


Another thing:

This would also make it harder for people to make maps if they start with a concept rather than starting with a song. Not everyone begins with a song they like and generates ideas from there, and I'm sure there are many mappers who have thought of concepts for maps and then looked for songs that match them. If you add in an additional restriction that songs also have to be unaltered, then getting started on a concept map project like this is made far more difficult.
Last edited by Purplegaze , edited 1 time in total.
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz

Purplegaze wrote:

I don't agree with the opinion that cuts are supposedly disrespectful to the artist at all. If you think altering a song like this is disrespectful, shouldn't (Sped Up Ver.) (Nightcore Mix) and even potentially song edits/remixes (GoldenWolf edit, etc.) have the same issue? I don't think any of this should be banned. People should be allowed to rank and play what they like.

It isn't disrespectful to the artist of a song if a 20-second clip of it is used in a YouTube video for example, because that's a context where only using part of a song makes sense. Beatmaps are much the same, because songs are not made to be osu! maps. Cutting them, speeding them up, etc. is just adjusting them to provide a more enjoyable gameplay experience or at least one that the mapper prefers.
sped up ver and nightcore mix could be debatable for a similar reason but they don't exactly apply because the song is still whole, providing the whole experience intended by the artist (yet different in pitch and tempo). edits and remixes are transformative and lots of times are songs on their own, which completely changes the context here as the artist is effectively different (think of "fair use"). my point isn't that altering a song in any way is disrespectful, but instead cutting out a portion of a song that could be seen as important, which is what this whole guideline is trying to avoid.

the YT video example i can't really agree with because the music does not make the video, the music is simply an addition to the already-existing content, so obviously you wouldn't be able to fit an entire song in a clip that's shorter than the song itself. osu! maps are built on songs, while YT videos work the other way around. you'd never see a random cut in a youtube video that's *only* a song, for example.
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze

UberFazz wrote:

my point isn't that altering a song in any way is disrespectful, but instead cutting out a portion of a song that could be seen as important, which is what this whole guideline is trying to avoid.
I guess I just really don't understand how cutting out a portion of a song is disrespectful to the author when it's not advertised as containing the full song, since (Cut Ver.) always has to be included. The current guideline as it currently stands is good enough to avoid completely egregious cuts. Why does it need to be reworded to become way more strict? It has a lot more potential to do more harm than good if you have to include every single distinct part of a song and gives people way less of a variety of music to work with if they like mapping shorter stuff.
BaAR_Vendel
648 posts
Joined July 2016
BaAR_Vendel
neutral for now because I don't quite understand what kind of content you want to newly disallow in the ranked section

Can you add multiple examples + each reason of whats acceptable cut and whats unacceptable?
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten
finnished talking with nevo will respond / update this thread with a summary of what we discussed sometime tomorrow.
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
I like the proposed adjustment.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten
been gathering more opinions and talking to some people in dm's will update this when more info is avalible current discussions are varried from disallowing cuts of songs under a certian length to fully banning cuts~
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze

Sparhten wrote:

been gathering more opinions and talking to some people in dm's will update this when more info is avalible current discussions are varried from disallowing cuts of songs under a certian length to fully banning cuts~
Even changing it from what's currently said to a length requirement is still going to disallow plenty of potential cuts that still represent the song in good faith, because every song is different and a simple requirement isn't going to apply well to everything.

Assuming you set the requirement at ~1:25 to accommodate TV size-length cuts which are very common, there are still lots of times where a shorter cut doesn't do anything wrong but would be unfairly barred from rank.

For example: this song has a short segment that would be basically a break in a map between 1:05 and 1:15, and after that, the entire song effectively repeats with a very slightly different melody. Mapping a cut ver. of just 0:00-1:05 would be absolutely faithful to what most of the song sounds like, yet it's not long enough to be TV size.

The current requirement, "Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song", already disallows anything completely egregious and makes sure that cuts represent the song well; I don't understand why you need to make it super specific and strict.

If your finalized wording proposal still has the potential to ban perfectly good cuts I'm going to state more specific thoughts on it after you post it, but for now this is my thought on the potentially proposed length requirement.
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

Purplegaze wrote:

Sparhten wrote:

been gathering more opinions and talking to some people in dm's will update this when more info is avalible current discussions are varried from disallowing cuts of songs under a certian length to fully banning cuts~
Even changing it from what's currently said to a length requirement is still going to disallow plenty of potential cuts that still represent the song in good faith, because every song is different and a simple requirement isn't going to apply well to everything.

Assuming you set the requirement at ~1:25 to accommodate TV size-length cuts which are very common, there are still lots of times where a shorter cut doesn't do anything wrong but would be unfairly barred from rank.

For example: this song has a short segment that would be basically a break in a map between 1:05 and 1:15, and after that, the entire song effectively repeats with a very slightly different melody. Mapping a cut ver. of just 0:00-1:05 would be absolutely faithful to what most of the song sounds like, yet it's not long enough to be TV size.

The current requirement, "Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song", already disallows anything completely egregious and makes sure that cuts represent the song well; I don't understand why you need to make it super specific and strict.

If your finalized wording proposal still has the potential to ban perfectly good cuts I'm going to state more specific thoughts on it after you post it, but for now this is my thought on the potentially proposed length requirement.
The length requirement we where discussing was not allowing cuts on songs already under a certian length
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze

Sparhten wrote:

The length requirement we where discussing was not allowing cuts on songs already under a certian length
This still has the same issue of "the rule shouldn't be so clear-cut and strict because songs are wildly different"

Cuts that this would ban that are allowed under the current rule (!!) and give a better gameplay experience:
- Songs that are shorter than the requirement but still have a structure of "at the halfway point the entire song basically repeats"
- Short songs that have a much less-intense outro longer than 20% of the song that can't be left in the .mp3 because it'd break the RC if not cut

What kind of cuts is this proposal aiming to disallow that aren't already banned under "Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song"?
Finadoggie
40 posts
Joined March 2019
Finadoggie
If the issue is coming from disrespecting artists, that raises like a million other issues. No artist ever intended to have their songs be turned into nightcore or sped up versions, and those songs do have a different feel to them, which could be seen as disrespectful. osu!'s halftime and doubletime mods also play a song in a way differing from the original intention, one could argue that's reason to remove them. A very small percentage of song artists actually consent to having their songs made into beatmaps, and that is most definitely not respectful, so should we just remove every song off the website that doesn't have explicit permission given? Same goes for many map backgrounds, is it disrespectful to steal art from someone for your own purposes without their consent?

Once respect starts to become a driving force, everything else gets complicated.
Last edited by Finadoggie , edited 1 time in total.
Purplegaze
115 posts
Joined October 2015
Purplegaze

Finadoggie wrote:

If the issue is coming from disrespecting artists, that raises like a million other issues. No artist ever intended to have their songs be turned into nightcore or sped up versions, and those songs do have a different feel to them, which could be seen as disrespectful. osu!'s halftime and doubletime mods also play a song in a way differing from the original intention, one could argue that's reason to remove them. A very small percentage of song artists actually consent to having their songs made into beatmaps, and that is most definitely not respectful, so should we just remove every song off the website that doesn't have explicit permission given? Same goes for many map backgrounds, is it disrespectful to steal art from someone for your own purposes without their consent?

Once respect starts to become a driving force, everything else gets complicated.
I agree 100%. Beyond that, I haven't EVER seen an artist see a song they see cut in osu and say "I find this disrespectful". Maybe in those cases should it ever happen, something could be done for that specific mapset if the artist doesn't approve. But overall, it just doesn't make sense to be a cause of disrespect more than "using the song without permission" and so on.

Cutting songs isn't disrespect, it's just adjusting them to have a better playing or mapping experience because songs weren't made to be maps.

The current rule that cut songs have to maintain their general impression and intensity is perfect because it gives a general idea without getting too specific, because getting specific is a bad idea when songs can be so different overall. If anything, our current guideline serves to respect the artist by not framing their song as something that it isn't.
Last edited by Purplegaze , edited 1 time in total.
Chiru-kun
800 posts
Joined January 2018
Chiru-kun

Sparhten wrote:

The length requirement we where discussing was not allowing cuts on songs already under a certian length
Enlighten us, please; under what specific length? You only mentioned cutting songs to a certain length, not songs already and originally under a certain length. This might help clear the blurred line between acceptable songs to cut, which I imagine are songs above 2 minutes but may be lower, and unacceptable songs to cut, which are perhaps under 1:30 minutes.

IMO the current guideline, as the post above me says, is good for songs which are potentially acceptable to cut. Also, I think people would accept not cutting songs under a certain length.

Maybe the discussion can move forward?
Sparhten
Beatmap Nominator
361 posts
Joined December 2015
Topic Starter
Sparhten

renzthegreat wrote:

Sparhten wrote:

The length requirement we where discussing was not allowing cuts on songs already under a certian length
Enlighten us, please; under what specific length? You only mentioned cutting songs to a certain length, not songs already and originally under a certain length. This might help clear the blurred line between acceptable songs to cut, which I imagine are songs above 2 minutes but may be lower, and unacceptable songs to cut, which are perhaps under 1:30 minutes.

IMO the current guideline, as the post above me says, is good for songs which are potentially acceptable to cut. Also, I think people would accept not cutting songs under a certain length.

Maybe the discussion can move forward?
ill be back to this thread sometime tonight with a new outline~ been busy with work.
Finadoggie
40 posts
Joined March 2019
Finadoggie
I don't see why we need the criteria to change. The BNs have brains, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to decide on a case by case basis whether a cut is allowed or not. Making the criteria more strict isn't a good option if it's going to be hated by a sizeable portion of mappers, and even if it does need to become stricter, make it a guideline, not a rule.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
So Sparhten yoinked Nevo and I into a real time chat about this
the summary is as follows:

Some songs can be cut from 2 or so minutes to 1 minute, and still maintain structural integrity just fine. So setting a minimum length to allow cuts wouldn't work, what's the end difference in playing a 1:30 cut of a 2m song vs 1:30 cut of a 3m song, or so.

In terms of issues cutting out individual sections, this should already be applicable with the current guideline, and would just need to be well enforced.

Sparhten has been big enlightened and asked me to ask pishi to archive but I can also archive so i will

If someone has similar concerns or different arguments than the ones in the current thread I suggest making a new one


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