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General guideline to strongly recommend crediting the creator of the map's background

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35
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing
Bringing this back from a while ago.

I think as the game moves forward more of the content involved in maps that isn't made directly by the mapper (up until this point, just the song mostly) should be properly credited. In this case, I would like to open a discussion about strongly recommending mappers to credit the artist of their map's background (and in some cases, photographer)

The biggest concern I see popping up is where exactly this should be done. I believe the best place would be the beatmap's description. I know that formally the beatmap description has had no requirements in place for content other than no NSFW, but until there's an official field for it (something I have brough up on the github) I think this is the best alternative.

So, I suggest the following as a guideline in the general section of the ranking criteria -

rc wrote:

The creator of the mapset's background should be credited in the mapset's description, unless sourcing the creator is exceedingly difficult or the creator does not wish to be credited.
I think a brief line such as "BG credit - artist name" should suffice in most cases. The mapper can be free to link directly to the artist's page if they want, but I don't think this should be required as the source might be NSFW or something.

possible topics of discussion
- Wording of the guideline
- What does "unless sourcing the creator is exceedingly difficult" mean?
- Should BNs be expected to confirm the source when the art may be sourced from NSFW websites and not all BNs are 18+? Should BGs from NSFW sources be allowed at all?
- Should this be part of the general metadata process and be allowed to be kept in the modding page?
Last edited by Izzywing , edited 1 time in total.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
i agree should be in desc or even bg artist name in map tags if possible
not allowing bgs from nsfw sources is stupid cuz it bans every eroge song in existence
i think not dirctly linking to eroge sites is fine (like if the art is from the game you already have the source field...)
can be part of modding process

bad faith ppl who would edit desc ex post facto are dumb and not an argument against this!
Last edited by Nao Tomori , edited 1 time in total.
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
Sourcing used content in this game is a step towards making the game better from a quality standpoint.

Kinda worried the nsfw thing but just like we have warnings for suggestuve lyrics in map descriptions- we can have a warning for links that might be a gateway to that.

edit cus i didnt see nao reply:

Nao Tomori:
not allowing bgs from nsfw sources is stupid cuz it bans every eroge song in existence
i think not dirctly linking to eroge sites is fine (like if the art is from the game you already have the source field...)
Yeah, I also agree since it's best to leave source as like the title of a game or unspecified if it falls within this category of visual novels n stuff.
Last edited by honne , edited 1 time in total.
Smokeman
463 posts
Joined November 2012
Smokeman
yes, should also promote the use of the best possible quality within ranking standards.
Karliah
177 posts
Joined April 2015
Karliah
Definitely agree to this, it seems strange that it isn't already a rule to begin with but, here we are.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
agree
Revolver
253 posts
Joined February 2016
Revolver
my take





consistency from BNs please its not hard to credit artist like you credit yourself
ferret irl
212 posts
Joined July 2015
ferret irl
osu! could do a lot of things better with credit and sourcing, and as osu! grows (even though it's pretty big already), there will be artists who will be pretty upset that their artwork is being used against their will to promote someone else's song in which ends up giving more publicity to the song artist than the background artist, a.k.a art theft. And I'm sure everyone here has heard the vocal opinions of visual artists about their artwork being stolen.

I'm in full support of any sort of ranking guideline or rule that helps mitigate art theft in osu!'s ranked section. Additionally, there should be further consideration in mandating proper permissions to use a background for a ranked map, such as a license that permits it or direct permission from the artist. Of course, this is impossible when the artist is a massive studio, but it's still a consideration.
-Keitaro
1,023 posts
Joined October 2013
-Keitaro
yea fully agree, over time osu will absolutely gets bigger and if the artist sees it, that would be saddening

Hobbes2 wrote:

Should BNs be expected to confirm the source when the art may be sourced from NSFW websites and not all BNs are 18+?
(psst metadata)
i think its not really a necessity but bns ofc need to check if the link is linked to like google image or something like that lol
pw384
2,288 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
Would it be too tedious to have BGs like beatmapsets/108661#osu/283968 saying "BG by Linkin Park" in CW, or beatmapsets/714671#osu/1625191 and having "BG by Microsoft"? Also I think there may be too many cases exempt from this guideline, but I'm not sure what is the best possible way
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
163 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
hard agree, even though it's technically not necessary i already do this on my own maps and push others to do the same
- Marco -
7,405 posts
Joined December 2011
- Marco -
Totally agree with this, background artists should have recognition of their own work.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
imo should scope this up to your intended goal:

Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description.

why not? if you can credit a background artist you can credit any other artist too. if something is too difficult to credit or has any other reason to not be credited, cool, it's a guideline.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

clayton wrote:

imo should scope this up to your intended goal:

Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description.

why not? if you can credit a background artist you can credit any other artist too. if something is too difficult to credit or has any other reason to not be credited, cool, it's a guideline.
Checklist:

  1. Guest mappers - Mappers for guest difficulties
  2. SV mappers - Rare case, but if someone assisted in creating sv gimmicks
  3. Storyboarders - If storyboard was used, who storyboarded it. Also credits for all various artwork used in storyboard
  4. Hitsounders - If someone assisted in mapping hitsounds
  5. Keysounders - If someone made hitsound sfx
  6. Skinners - If map is using skin made by someone
  7. BG artist - of course
  8. Video producer - If your map uses video
Last edited by abraker , edited 2 times in total.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing

clayton wrote:

imo should scope this up to your intended goal:

Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description.

why not? if you can credit a background artist you can credit any other artist too. if something is too difficult to credit or has any other reason to not be credited, cool, it's a guideline.
Tbh I’m down but I kept it approachable to make it more likely for this to move forward. I feel like people will panic at the prospect of crediting all 49 random images in their storyboard (even if they should keep track of their sources)
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
most of the ppl agreeing here are doing so on the basis that credits are good in general, not specifically for BGs. I'm lead to believe that it would increase in scope later for reasons that ppl are arguing Right now so might as well go for it. I don't think there's much in the way of moving this forward either cuz at worst it's just a guideline and it can be ignored with any decent reasoning

my proposal, add to General>Guidelines:

- Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description. Credits do not need to be repeated in the description when present in other metadata.

second sentence to suggest that creators already appearing in artist, title, creator, diff names, etc don't need to be credited again in description

words
my english skillz r lacking how do u fix this problem where u can interpret sentence 2 ways

[Creators of media] used in a beatmapset (wrong)
Creators of [media used in a beatmapset] (GOod)
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
it should be a rule, not a guideline. everything not immediately and obviously attributed via other beatmapset metadata should be linked back to its creators/contributors.

and i do mean everything

this has concurrent discussion over at the github issue for it btw: https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/6908
Last edited by Ephemeral , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

clayton wrote:

my english skillz r lacking how do u fix this problem where u can interpret sentence 2 ways

[Creators of media] used in a beatmapset (wrong)
Creators of [media used in a beatmapset] (GOod)

"the"

- Creators of the media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description. Credits do not need to be repeated in the description when present in other metadata.
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
Juuuuuuuuul
1,283 posts
Joined March 2018
Juuuuuuuuul
Maybe considering a Featured artists program for illustrators would be nice and useful.
robinn
92 posts
Joined November 2017
robinn
nvm
Last edited by robinn , edited 2 times in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton

Ephemeral wrote:

it should be a rule, not a guideline
seems like bad idea because there are a lot of reasons to not credit something, and it's not a straightforward or well-defined thing to begin with. these are some reasons already listed in the thread:

- too difficult / impossible to source
- creator does not want credit
- references to nsfw

RC "guideline" means you need to follow it unless you have a decent reason not to, you wouldn't be able to ignore it just cuz ur lazy or don't want to credit.

abraker wrote:

"the"
thank u brakey boo
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing
Maybe considering a Featured artists program for illustrators would be nice and useful.
Cool idea but there's so much free to use art that I have a hard time seeing them go for this. And popular BG artists aren't as well known or popular as popular song artists where its more obvious.

Currently on board with making it a guideline as opposed to a rule but I see the argument. Would love more discussion on that.
Last edited by Izzywing , edited 1 time in total.
yaspo
osu! Alumni
265 posts
Joined September 2014
yaspo
Feeling the same way about it being better as a guideline, especially with 'artist does not want to be credited' being a very valid exception.

Otherwise I'm a bit tentative in general for similar reasons pw384 mentions. Like let's face it, if you google "miku wallpaper" you're unlikely to find the legitimate creators of those works because they've been reposted everywhere. So the "too difficult / impossible to source" exception seems potentially too common to really act as an actual exception, rather making the rule pointless.

I'd be a lot more for something that's in the direction of
"The artist/creator of your background/media must be easily traceable and credited in the beatmap description"
Not just enforcing the crediting itself but also the ability to credit.
Don't know if that's too restrictive, but do feel like it'd be only be a minor change without this (?)

Regardless, I'm for any form of improvement towards crediting. Thumbs Up.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing
It looks like there's agreement about the BG thing at a bare minimum. would love more thoughts clayton's proposal, which reads as this -

- Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description. Credits do not need to be repeated in the description when present in other metadata.


Should it be expanded to all media? I believe this is probably the endgame and so it does make sense to just incorporate this now.
Last edited by Izzywing , edited 1 time in total.
1103
276 posts
Joined October 2015
1103

Hobbes2 wrote:

It looks like there's agreement about the BG thing at a bare minimum. would love more thoughts clayton's proposal, which reads as this -

- Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description. Credits do not need to be repeated in the description when present in other metadata.


Should it be expanded to all media? I believe this is probably the endgame and so it does make sense to just incorporate this now.
ya

yaspo wrote:

Otherwise I'm a bit tentative in general for similar reasons pw384 mentions. Like let's face it, if you google "miku wallpaper" you're unlikely to find the legitimate creators of those works because they've been reposted everywhere. So the "too difficult / impossible to source" exception seems potentially too common to really act as an actual exception, rather making the rule pointless.
just treat it as a paper, if it would be a valid source in an essay then it would also be valid in this sense
Last edited by 1103 , edited 1 time in total.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

yaspo wrote:

Otherwise I'm a bit tentative in general for similar reasons pw384 mentions. Like let's face it, if you google "miku wallpaper" you're unlikely to find the legitimate creators of those works because they've been reposted everywhere. So the "too difficult / impossible to source" exception seems potentially too common to really act as an actual exception, rather making the rule pointless.
To be honest these days with how powerful reverse image searching has become, this is much less an issue than it used to be. The only time I can't find image sources is usually when the creator has deleted their work or the image I'm searching with turns out to have been flipped horizontally. Google reverse search is typically good enough when it isn't bloated with a million pintrest results. seriously, heck pintrest. Or tineye is also a popular and fairly trustworthy reverse image search service too. Most images are findable with those two. There's also weebier resources like saucenao and its browser extension which have probably logged every popular pixiv image ever.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Noffy wrote:

...
Well as said, the problem with reverse image search, ESPECIALLY which pintrest results, is that 99% of the time it those are not by the artist themselves. They are all copies stolen from the artist's page. This is not just about providing a location where the image can be found, but giving credit where credit is due. Also it's fairly annoying to reverse image search each bg you want to track down compared to following a link in description or copy pasting artist's name into search.

If it's too difficult to source, that's understandable, but we should at least strive to give content creators some exposure when possible.
Last edited by abraker , edited 5 times in total.
pw384
2,288 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384

Hobbes2 wrote:

- Creators of media used in a beatmapset should be credited in the beatmapset's description. Credits do not need to be repeated in the description when present in other metadata.
agree with this

also maybe sometimes the author does not wish to be credited (e.g. the mapper is the creator of bg but they don't wish to put that in map's descrpition/creator's words), so in this case could the related reference be moved to the discussion thread?
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

abraker wrote:

Noffy wrote:

...
Well as said, the problem with reverse image search, ESPECIALLY which pintrest results, is that 99% of the time it those are not by the artist themselves. They are all copies stolen from the artist's page. This is not just about providing a location where the image can be found, but giving credit where credit is due. Also it's fairly annoying to reverse image search each bg you want to track down compared to following a link in description or copy pasting artist's name into search.

If it's too difficult to source, that's understandable, but we should at least strive to give content creators some exposure when possible.

Uhh, I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Finding the source of most images is much less of a hassle than it used to be so in most cases it should be traceable and therefore creditable.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 1 time in total.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

Ephemeral wrote:

it should be a rule, not a guideline. everything not immediately and obviously attributed via other beatmapset metadata should be linked back to its creators/contributors.

and i do mean everything

this has concurrent discussion over at the github issue for it btw: https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/6908
Curious how you plan to handle hitsound sourcing. Off the top of my head I cannot even think of a way I would approach finding the creator of a particular hitsound, especially if they are not written into the metadata.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing

Monstrata wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

it should be a rule, not a guideline. everything not immediately and obviously attributed via other beatmapset metadata should be linked back to its creators/contributors.

and i do mean everything

this has concurrent discussion over at the github issue for it btw: https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/6908
Curious how you plan to handle hitsound sourcing. Off the top of my head I cannot even think of a way I would approach finding the creator of a particular hitsound, especially if they are not written into the metadata.
Def a strong concern and the biggest issue I can see with having to credit all media. Could see it greatly impacting hitsounding and story boarding moving forward. Hence why I would love more discussion about this
radar
osu! Alumni
283 posts
Joined September 2015
radar
Due to the nature of crediting all media being nearly impossible in some cases (like monstrata and hobbes are pointing out now) I believe itd be in the best interest of most people to make it a guideline, but one with very little reason to break except for in scenarios like hitsounds/edge cases. while it is basic manners to credit sources of any creative outlet, there are cases where crediting is impossible, or where the creator no longer wishes to be attached to a work (i.e artists deleting old art but maps still using it) ect, and for these cases i feel like its more accurate to put it in place as a guideline
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,251 posts
Joined March 2016
Topic Starter
Izzywing
would love some more thoughts on this
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
most ppl here are in agreement that all media should be credited and it should be a guideline. only ones standing out are:

- community/forums/posts/7794500 wants it to be a rule. rest of thread argued guideline would be more appropriate, so I think that's resolved
- community/forums/posts/7800621 wants restriction on the ability to credit. no conclusion about it in this thread, and it's an extension of this proposal, so we can leave this out until more discussion

I'll see where this can fit into RC and make PR soon
e: https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/5031
e2: added a reference to content usage guidelines at peppy's request
e3: merged !
Last edited by clayton , edited 4 times in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
This thread's been finalized, then
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