pepeotaku wrote:

Hello, I think all the mappers have problems at the beginning and i think that it'S going a good idea to giv feedback especially a mappers beginners, sorry for my english is isn't my first language. tnks

thats why the modding queues exist, community/forums/60. I haven't really had an issue with getting feedback from other mappers, so far. I'm not good enough to think about ranking yet though, so i don't have anything to add to how hard it is to rank a map, but getting mods isn't that hard right now imo.

pepeotaku wrote:

Hello, I think all the mappers have problems at the beginning and i think that it'S going a good idea to giv feedback especially a mappers beginners, sorry for my english is isn't my first language. tnks

The point is this problem doesn't just restricted to new mappers. Mappers with maps of rankable quality and even ones with some ranked maps also struggle too. Feedback doesn't help anything when reaching that point.

This is not just a problem with mappers themselves, it's about the ranking system itself as well.

yes

yes

Looking bn profiles one-by-one and pm them if they opened is really tiresome and not effective in my opinion. It's also a big letdown for people who have social anxiety like me. I know they are nice person, just ask nicely and you'll fine. But that anxiety itself always make me unable to pm'ed them in the first place. Honestly i'm already trying pm few bn for my map, but.....yeah its not good for my heart so i stopped it. For now i'm only posted my map at bns queue on modding queue if they are opened.

Any place to drop your map anyways for bn check and marked that submitted map as anonymous is a good solution in my opinion as long they can regularly checked it. I know in https://bn.mappersguild.com/ there are section to post your map for bn check. But the problem is almost none of them are willing to checked any map submitted there. Or maybe some rules which forced each of bn must always open they queue publicly on modding queue for maybe........full-one day with two weeks delays. idk

In conclusion, ranked a map should be valued actual quality of the maps more than social skill.


Incentives for bn is already talked above. It's great way to motivated bn for nominating map from unknown mapper. Honestly the fact that bn work as volunteer is always wrong in my eyes, also incentive they are got so far are only 'dedicated bn badge stuff' which are really underwhelming compared with they work (as far i know). And i think this is somewhat solid reason for bn to only take request for well-known mappers or mappers that having a ranked map.
regarded of that, i have question. Are incentive cant be given as money? or maybe other much valuable stuff rather than badge?
I think bigger incentive will make people much interested for taking a bn work besides making ranked process on they map much easier. There are many people are capable in this particular work, but not interested on it because work required if you're chosen as bn is veeery tiring.

Lastly for system. Getting 5 hypes on your map is not that hard, but more than 5 is practically useless besides of appearance on the top of map search. Please give any usage on that useless hype. Also kudosu

English isnt my first tongue. I'm Sorry for grammatical error there

RioAl wrote:

Lastly for system. Getting 5 hypes on your map is not that hard, but more than 5 is practically useless besides of appearance on the top of map search. Please give any usage on that useless hype. Also kudosu

I take it you've seen terrible maps with a lot of hype? That doesn't really happen in my experience, so hype for me is pretty reliable as an indicator of the relative quality of the map. Find a mapset with 5 hypes, no expectations. Find a mapset with 15 hypes, and I'd expect it to be relatively good (assuming it isn't some pp map, so some context comes into play), at least compared to majority of 5 hype mapsets.

unless its h4h, then damn

i mean i got 64 hypes on gee and that map sucked

Li Syaoran wrote:

i mean i got 64 hypes on gee and that map sucked

i relate to this spiritually

pepeotaku, I think there are multiple ways to get feedback as a new mappers so I don't see it as that big of an issue. Besides the modding queues other have mentioned, there is the mentorship program that can do wonders for new mappers.

Li Syaoran wrote:

i mean i got 64 hypes on gee and that map sucked

oh, whoops. i considered mappers and not players lol

Zelzatter Zero wrote:

pepeotaku wrote:

Hello, I think all the mappers have problems at the beginning and i think that it'S going a good idea to giv feedback especially a mappers beginners, sorry for my english is isn't my first language. tnks

The point is this problem doesn't just restricted to new mappers. Mappers with maps of rankable quality and even ones with some ranked maps also struggle too. Feedback doesn't help anything when reaching that point.

This is not just a problem with mappers themselves, it's about the ranking system itself as well.

I can completely attest to this. I recall trying to look at bn profiles one by one and seeing everybody closed.

This issue is even worse if you're not mapping anime/vocaloid.

My Angel Miko wrote:

This issue is even worse if you're not mapping anime/vocaloid.

spoes cheri myxo

I'm only like 3 months into mapping, but I don't think I've been doing that bad. I have 2 maps that are eh, but I have 1 map uploaded that I really like and another one that I really hope gets attention because I'm putting a lot of effort into it. I don't know much about mapping, but I'm doing my best and would like some feedback!

My beatmsps aren’t getting noticed at all or are getting corrupted and not working, like only being able to hit sliders and not the hit circles and it’s frustrating. I don’t know how to fix this at all and it’s making me mad.

I have been mapping for a quite some time now, i made a map today too but i can't upload it yet because of this error (Error during uploading, Unable to write data to the transport connection. An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host.) But anyways, i have been improving lately and i want to say that the gap between the amount of BNs and the amount of maps submitted per day is way too big so it's probably quite hard to check all the submissions and deal with them. That's why i can somehow understand my maps not being noticed well.
It's a bit sad but I wish luck to all unnoticed mappers. <3

speedinzOSU wrote:

My beatmsps aren’t getting noticed at all or are getting corrupted and not working, like only being able to hit sliders and not the hit circles and it’s frustrating. I don’t know how to fix this at all and it’s making me mad.

Post in Help instead of here next time. This is not the point of the thread.

Anyway can you provide the map that has the problem?

Jaer, I'm not a Beat-Map nominator but I looked at your most recent Beat-Map and I don't really think it's good. I'll try to mod it to hopefully improve your mapping skills in the long run.

GreggRulzOk wrote:

Jaer, I'm not a Beat-Map nominator but I looked at your most recent Beat-Map and I don't really think it's good. I'll try to mod it to hopefully improve your mapping skills in the long run.

usually when you give someone criticism you criticise the map, not much point in just saying "your map is not good"; doesn't really help at all.
this thread hasn't been on topic in a while...

I posted on their discussion page with some advice.

Conclusion of the story:
It all boils down to how much the mapper has persevered and persisted to get his work noticed.

And I guess this topic really helped the other "inactive" BNs to get working again.

Just shoutout to those crazily (in a good way) devoted BNs that are always in the modding queue. I can't really fathom why you love modding that much, literally I'm mindblown.

My mapping story


I always admired ranked maps and seeing them being put in spotlight (played) by top players somehow makes me felt quite jealous. For that, I started mapping ridiculously hard mapset as my first work (Kami no Kotoba 1.5x), hoping for top players like Cookie or Vaxei to play when it got ranked. I spent about 40 hours to map 5 difficulties alone. Yet no one noticed my map (it sucks anyway, lol).

Due to my first attempt being a failure, I abandoned the first mapset and mapped the second map, ONIGIRI FREEWAY. However, this time it wasn't purely for difficulty. I saw Cookie's video of SS-ing Hazu-'s ranked mapset of this song. I mapped the 2nd map mostly because I liked the song. Putting 5 difficulties. 3 were completed, that being left only MIXED and ONIGIRI TEMPTATION (the 2 hardest difficulties on my mapset) to map. But all of sudden I lost my motivation to continue the map. Also becoming more "appearance-looking mapper", I was pretty much dissatisfied with the lower difficulties, only COMPLEX (Insane) that I kept it unchanged and left the mapset behind.

This time, from another YouTube videos influence, I started my current project (UNION!!) at 1 February. Song was damn good for me to not map. By the time I finished the first difficulty (the old "Special") around 6.2*, I felt not enough. I took another 2 weeks to finish a 5.8* difficulty. My online kouhai (junior) gave me encouragement and messaged me whether I need help with searching for BNs after seeing my mapset done. She recommended me a BN for me to message as I asked her. I tried my luck. Messaged him. Showed him my old UNION!! mapset. Not after 2 minutes, he replied "not interested" (now I realised the mapset probably wasn't that good though). Being utterly irritated and traumatised (it was quite a trauma for me, no exaggeration), I left the mapset for a while and went to map Tool-Assisted Speedcore to practice my mapping skill. Managing to finish the 3.99* Hard+ difficulty, I started mapping the second difficulty of the mapset, Insane+, and re-continued the UNION!! mapset at the same time. I deleted the 5.8* difficulty in the UNION!! mapset and added Epilogue.

After finishing Epilogue, I grew an immerse liking towards the song. Starting then, I added Normal, Hard, Insane and Expert difficulties. I put at least 3 hours in a day for months during the pandemic for my UNION!!. After some time have passed, I felt like I have improved drastically if I say so. I added Million Power to give a shot at my mapping skill for middle 6*. Turned out it was well-made for me, I was satisfied at the same time feeling "lonely". I didn't want to stop mapping the song. But I decided to request a nomination in modding section to get this ranked. However, I didn't get accepted, not even from one. Feeling like the last time (quite deja'vu actually), I asked for mods from any possible queues, thinking there wouldn't be enough mods to improve the mapset. The mods keep flooding in my inbox. By the time the queue people have modded there were 400+ mods lol. Little did I realise I have asked too much. I took more time to solve the mods. It was tiring, honestly. But I appreciated their help.

The mods have been solved. I was really really eager to get my mapset ranked (hoping someone to gift me osu!supporter this time, lol), but the song struck into my head again. I decided to add another 3 lower difficulties to give more balanced spread to the mapset. But one day, a friend I met online (OnLoong) messaged me about my map was in YouTube. He included the link in his message. Of course, I was confused, since all of a sudden my inbox was over 50 notifications. I tapped on the link and saw Epilogue difficulty in TheRockzSG recent video. I was truly excited. I couldn't properly express my excitement in words, literally. Seeing the positive comments, further motivated me to map the mapset (I was easily influenced by positivity and negativity, after all). But then, there was a comment thread that said my mapset was a "dogshit". He commented that word. I was pissed off and started mapping a new hardest difficulty (Yukou! We are all MILLION!!). But aside of that one single toxic kid, I was pleased to hear from the players of my map in overall. This event gave me a huge jump to get the mapset ranked. Although no BN has noticed my map up until now, I will still keep going to overcome that trauma and get my mapset as my first ranked status after the long journey of 10 months. And here I am, stuck at the difficulty style ideas lol


*please don't cringe*

GreggRulzOk wrote:

Jaer, I'm not a Beat-Map nominator but I looked at your most recent Beat-Map and I don't really think it's good. I'll try to mod it to hopefully improve your mapping skills in the long run.

i checked your maps and honestly, if i had my laptop rn (im somewhere atm), i would destroy it ben shapiro style

eye for eye, blood for blood

Recently, I've been really trying to get on of my maps ranked. I started this map back in late August. I went through all the steps. Finishing the map, hitsounding, hitsounding again once people called it garbage, trying to get people to mod my map. Asking BN's, getting more people to mod. Getting play testers, contacting BN's again. Getting more mod's. I've probably spent over 70 hours fixing, hitsounding, and improving my map, and many more replying to suggestions . I just feel as if everything I've done is a time sink. A sunk-cost fallacy in a way. The more time I spend on the map, I keep reassuring myself that maybe a BN will notice it. Nothing really ever comes of it.

Currently I've resolved over 100 questions and issues about my maps and attempted to contact a lot of the BN's. Some are very supportive, but most of the time, they are too busy or just can't be bothered. I guess I can't be too mad because the ranking system reflects the real world. Life isn't fair, you're not special, and people don't care what you do. I'm not trying to be the next great mapper that innovates new ideas and inspires the next generation, I just wanted to try to get a map ranked cause I thought I might be fun. That "thought" is was led me down a rabbit hole where I waste more time and effort for work no one cares about. I've even ghost mapped over 10 maps for various people or just GD's in the hopes that someone with a social status would pick up on the map, or recognize the name. Those efforts feel short too.

If I'm being honest, I don't like mapping for fun anymore. I don't want to waste my time and effort on something that will collect dust in the graveyard. Been there, done that. One of my friends even told me when I wanted to start mapping to "stay away from mapping" because it's a "dumpster fire of a process". And he was right.

Idk, I might just map 1 stars, they seem easy enough to get ranked lol

Webthesnail63 wrote:

Idk, I might just map 1 stars, they seem easy enough to get ranked lol

there was a drama over a set with just Normal difficulty currently, so... good luck with that.

Also what I mainly see in your post are just really wrong mindset. Rank != fun. You can map the song you like and just don't care about the ranking process at all. If you can make yourself recognized by just a group of people because of the map you're working on then that can be also considered an achievement already. You don't need your map to be ranked to be famous or to find any joy from it.

Recently, I've been trying to get my maps noticed, but it seems Im struggling to get my maps nominated.

I started mapping in the osu editor as early as January 2020. I learned from a lot of mappers hrough #modhelp, watched and apply lessons that i get from experienced mappers such as Pishifat, Charles445, Skystar and Monstrata. I've joined a few mapping contest and learn from my mistakes along the way and finally to myself I though, I am ready to create my first ranked map.

So I started by creating a mapset from a song im pretty familiar with which at the time was xo - eden (cover by Aaron Musslewhite). I uploaded this map on 24 March, 2020 hoping it would reach ranked status. It got 7/5 hypes which made me really confident about it getting ranked, I've fixed and polish the mapset with the helps of various modders (big thankyou for them) and when it is time to search out beatmap nominators, I was dissapointed. It turns out it is very difficult to rank a mapset with a song that is out of the norm, in other word the majority of BNs would likely to rank a map with the song they are familiar with (mostly anime, vocaloid, high BPM and Japanese). This actually disapoints me since I've created a mapset thats out of these parameters and the efforts to search the BN(s) that would rank such mapset is really straining since it is rare to find such BN(s) that would rank such a map.

Since then I'm trying to map a song that I'm really familiar with but following the parameter or bounty of some BN(s) hoping that i might get my first ranked this way. This struggles me as a mapper, since i can map and rank a song that I particullary familiar and love to share as a content on osu!, I'm hoping this would change in the future.

Zelzatter Zero wrote:

Webthesnail63 wrote:

Idk, I might just map 1 stars, they seem easy enough to get ranked lol

there was a drama over a set with just Normal difficulty currently, so... good luck with that.

Also what I mainly see in your post are just really wrong mindset. Rank != fun. You can map the song you like and just don't care about the ranking process at all. If you can make yourself recognized by just a group of people because of the map you're working on then that can be also considered an achievement already. You don't need your map to be ranked to be famous or to find any joy from it.

Here's the thing. I no longer find enjoyment in mapping because of how unresponsive and how annoying it is to get maps looked at by BN's. I really don't understand why there is a stigma against trying to get maps ranked over mapping "for fun." Like I said in my original post,

"I don't want to waste my time and effort on something that will collect dust in the graveyard. Been there, done that."
I even mapped an entire 9 min marathon with hitsounds for fun, just wasn't worth it.

Saying that I have a bad mindset is an excuse for how bad the ranking system is. In an ideal world, people should be able to map for fun and get their maps ranked. I wish that were the case, but most of the time you need to choose between getting a map ranked and just mapping for fun. I choose to give up fun and go for rank. Also, I literally no connections for getting my stuff out there, I don't want to come off as desperate plus I already tried the forums and spamming BN's, not an ideal strategy imo.

Personally, I feel as if getting a map ranked is the next step into becoming a better mapper. Sure I can map as many maps as I want, but without constructive feedback aka modding and BN's, it just seems like a time sink to me. Also, how would I even get my maps recognized? Pray to the osu gods that a streamer plays that map or that a BN randomly stumbles upon it? Any of my "Successful" maps don't ever see the light of day. For example, one of my maps has 24 hypes. Not too many, but at least enough to maybe gain some traction. I've done modding queues for 3 months, gotten over 100 responses for changes I need to make to the map, and think It can get ranked. Honestly, what else is there to do. I can try to spam BN's private messages, but I already did that with mixed results, mostly that they weren't interested or how I needed to fill out a separate application and hope to god that I get picked. I did get to talk to a few BN's more in detail about my problem, but either they were swamped with other maps or just couldn't at this very time. Not hate towards the BN's, just frustrating.

Webthesnail63 wrote:

Zelzatter Zero wrote:

Webthesnail63 wrote:

Idk, I might just map 1 stars, they seem easy enough to get ranked lol

there was a drama over a set with just Normal difficulty currently, so... good luck with that.

Also what I mainly see in your post are just really wrong mindset. Rank != fun. You can map the song you like and just don't care about the ranking process at all. If you can make yourself recognized by just a group of people because of the map you're working on then that can be also considered an achievement already. You don't need your map to be ranked to be famous or to find any joy from it.

Here's the thing. I no longer find enjoyment in mapping because of how unresponsive and how annoying it is to get maps looked at by BN's. I really don't understand why there is a stigma against trying to get maps ranked over mapping "for fun." Like I said in my original post,

"I don't want to waste my time and effort on something that will collect dust in the graveyard. Been there, done that."
I even mapped an entire 9 min marathon with hitsounds for fun, just wasn't worth it.

Saying that I have a bad mindset is an excuse for how bad the ranking system is. In an ideal world, people should be able to map for fun and get their maps ranked. I wish that were the case, but most of the time you need to choose between getting a map ranked and just mapping for fun. I choose to give up fun and go for rank. Also, I literally no connections for getting my stuff out there, I don't want to come off as desperate plus I already tried the forums and spamming BN's, not an ideal strategy imo.

Personally, I feel as if getting a map ranked is the next step into becoming a better mapper. Sure I can map as many maps as I want, but without constructive feedback aka modding and BN's, it just seems like a time sink to me. Also, how would I even get my maps recognized? Pray to the osu gods that a streamer plays that map or that a BN randomly stumbles upon it? Any of my "Successful" maps don't ever see the light of day. For example, one of my maps has 24 hypes. Not too many, but at least enough to maybe gain some traction. I've done modding queues for 3 months, gotten over 100 responses for changes I need to make to the map, and think It can get ranked. Honestly, what else is there to do. I can try to spam BN's private messages, but I already did that with mixed results, mostly that they weren't interested or how I needed to fill out a separate application and hope to god that I get picked. I did get to talk to a few BN's more in detail about my problem, but either they were swamped with other maps or just couldn't at this very time. Not hate towards the BN's, just frustrating.

I understand you. Getting accepted by BNs is similar to winning a 5-star character by luck in Genshin, impossible. I still fear to this day to only ask for BNs since the first rejection.

Webthesnail63 wrote:

constructive feedback aka modding and BN's

try asking people for general feedback instead of mods, that's easier for them and a better use of your time if you want to improve

Accepting almost 100 mods on a map just sounds like you aren't ready; most maps that get ranked have way fewer posts than that. Either the map has large-scale issues the modders were too inexperienced to recognise and just nitpicked stuff caused by said issues, or you don't have the experience to be able to tell which ones actually matter.

I've both failed at ranking maps and ranked a map fairly easily, but more importantly, I've also seen lots of others go through the same steps. I hope you can believe me when I say that finding BNs really does get easier once you go from "technically rankable" to "decent". You seem to feel that you're there already, just like I once did, but if you have no earlier accomplishments to show for it, you probably aren't. I certainly wasn't. Let go of your ego, take a break if you need to, and start mapping for improvement again.

lewski wrote:

Webthesnail63 wrote:

constructive feedback aka modding and BN's

try asking people for general feedback instead of mods, that's easier for them and a better use of your time if you want to improve

Accepting almost 100 mods on a map just sounds like you aren't ready; most maps that get ranked have way fewer posts than that. Either the map has large-scale issues the modders were too inexperienced to recognise and just nitpicked stuff caused by said issues, or you don't have the experience to be able to tell which ones actually matter.

I've both failed at ranking maps and ranked a map fairly easily, but more importantly, I've also seen lots of others go through the same steps. I hope you can believe me when I say that finding BNs really does get easier once you go from "technically rankable" to "decent". You seem to feel that you're there already, just like I once did, but if you have no earlier accomplishments to show for it, you probably aren't. I certainly wasn't. Let go of your ego, take a break if you need to, and start mapping for improvement again.

To address why my map has a lot of mods, is because I specifically reached out to people to nit pick my map. To make sure that every single note of the entire map was good. Most of the posts addresses very small issues instead of the concepts of the map.

Every single person on the forums has the same hive mind idea of subjectivity when it comes to mapping. It's always the same, that someone is "inexperienced" or that they lack the "knowledge" to become a better mapper.

Also you say "technically rank able" to "decent." What is rankable for one is garbage for another. Mapping is inherently subjective. Good mapping is subjective. For example, I think that maps that prioritize concepts over gameplay are garbage.

"start mapping for improvement again." WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS EVEN MEAN????????????????????? Here's the deal, I asked from help on my maps and got mods, and I continued to ask for more and more and more and more and more mods. Now i'm being told that having too many mods is a bad thing? Why are there so many double standards when it comes to getting maps closer to ranked. Too little mods means your map hasn't been looked at, too many means that you're inexperienced.

Mapping for me is no longer about fun. Due to feedback like yours and others in the forms, mapping is hell. I just want to rank my map because of something called sunk cost.
Sunk Cost: When someone continues a behavior or endeavor as a result of previously invested resources (time, money or effort.) [Arkes & Blumer, 1985]

Webthesnail63 wrote:

"start mapping for improvement again." WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?????????????????????

it mean that instead of trying to improve on 1 specific map by asking literally everyone to mod it, would be better if you make brand new map and ask for feedback again. mapping takes much time yes, but it is great improvement and asking for feedback on another new map is great boost to improve your mapping skil

also yes, having too many mods on 1 specific map might indicate that something wrong with that map, but it doesnt mean that having few mods are bad either (if you already experience enough, you will only need few mods, or even none)

for newer mapper, i will suggest to make a map, ask few people for feedback, make a map again and remember the feedback given by modders, ask for feedback again, and so on until you can make decent map

in other words, mapping process is taking long, but ranking a map is even longer. so why not making lots of decent map first and then try to ask bns for rank?

also it would be helpful if you have mapping friends, would be great if you have lots of if, since you can just ask whenever you get struggle with something. so go get friend and do thing called "communication" and "socialize"

for me, i can enjoy mapping because i enjoy the song, enjoy the part/concept/map, and enjoy the community around me. mapping is fun if you know how to handle it

sorry if my wording "sucks", but this is what and how i tell to people. language barrier still a thing, so expect that happen

tldr: map, ask for feedback, repeat. thats how to improve as a mapper (and even at irl stuff)

(ask me if you want to ask something, my dms are open 24/7 365. i will try my best to answer it)

frozz wrote:

Webthesnail63 wrote:

"start mapping for improvement again." WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?????????????????????

tldr: map, ask for feedback, repeat. thats how to improve as a mapper (and even at irl stuff)

My thinking was; map, ask for feedback, improve the map, ask for more feedback, map, feedback, so on and so forth. My main issue is that there is no sense of accomplishment for finishing a map just for experience. My logic is that if I want to spend time and effort on a project, I should finish it until the very end, i.e. ranked. It is clear that I am in the minority when it comes to my philosophy and mindset on mapping. Personally, the best way for me to improve is to attempt getting my maps ranked. Also another problem I have with mapping for fun, is that the genre of music I enjoy mapping the most is one of which very few people enjoy. So the combination of my "fun" maps never getting looked at, the double standards of which come with modding, and overall difficulty to find the correct BN's makes me extremely de-motivated to map for fun.

Again, my ideology and opinion of mapping is in the minority, that's why I've specifically come to this discussion board to explain my situation. Please realize that a lot the maps I make for fun include ones in which I need to cut the mp3, time it, re-time, and only then can I begin to map. I just don't see the point in spending so much effort just for, "experience."

Again, my ideology and opinion of mapping is in the minority, please understand.

Webthesnail63 wrote:

long text...

you must throw away your current mindset and "logic" about "maps must be ranked" and "best way for me to improve is to attempt getting my maps ranked". process on mapping and modding are sure can improve mapping ability, but rank a map isnt. rank is just thing to make your map "stand out" and "be played by other player more" among other pending/graveyard map. after ranking process, you will not get anything other than exposure

so its better to map more and improve on it, so soon you can easily get bns or even bns will come to you

frozz wrote:

you must throw away your current mindset and "logic" about "maps must be ranked" and "best way for me to improve is to attempt getting my maps ranked". process on mapping and modding are sure can improve mapping ability, but rank a map isnt. rank is just thing to make your map "stand out" and "be played by other player more" among other pending/graveyard map. after ranking process, you will not get anything other than exposure

so its better to map more and improve on it, so soon you can easily get bns or even bns will come to you

You can disagree with their opinion but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be thrown away. Wanting to rank a map is a perfectly acceptable goal that most mappers have. Trying to rank maps also doesn't stop you from improving, you can do both at the same time. It's also worth noting that they said they are not enjoying just mapping for fun and for the sake of improvement if this process doesn't yield any results, and I think this is relatable for many mappers. I feel like it's a common misconception of rather experienced mappers that the only acceptable focus when mapping is improvement and therefore keep telling less experienced mappers not to try ranking their maps, but having a goal and trying to achieve it is often one of the major motivations to do a certain activity so this advice is actually not that helpful.

I literally just wanted to rank a map. That's it. It was my main motivation for mapping. I ask for general mods, people say that I need more specific feedback. Ask for specific feedback, people think I need more general feedback. Ask for a few mods and people think I'm inexperienced. Ask for a lot of mods and now I get questioned on the legitimacy of the map in the first place.

These forums have made me hate mapping and I've lost most interest in something I thought was really cool.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

frozz wrote:

you must throw away your current mindset and "logic" about "maps must be ranked" and "best way for me to improve is to attempt getting my maps ranked". process on mapping and modding are sure can improve mapping ability, but rank a map isnt. rank is just thing to make your map "stand out" and "be played by other player more" among other pending/graveyard map. after ranking process, you will not get anything other than exposure

so its better to map more and improve on it, so soon you can easily get bns or even bns will come to you

You can disagree with their opinion but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be thrown away. Wanting to rank a map is a perfectly acceptable goal that most mappers have. Trying to rank maps also doesn't stop you from improving, you can do both at the same time. It's also worth noting that they said they are not enjoying just mapping for fun and for the sake of improvement if this process doesn't yield any results, and I think this is relatable for many mappers. I feel like it's a common misconception of rather experienced mappers that the only acceptable focus when mapping is improvement and therefore keep telling less experienced mappers not to try ranking their maps, but having a goal and trying to achieve it is often one of the major motivations to do a certain activity so this advice is actually not that helpful.

ye, that can be true. what i want to say is try to lower the expectation. since if your expectation is high, and you somehow failed, you will be demotivated (this is me in the past, so i hope newer mapper didnt follow my route)

best thing is do what you like and feel comfortable. if feedbacks and mods isnt enough, try playing maps and think about how x mapper did this and how and why they did it

sorry if u got demotivated. my words might not great, i just try my best to give honest feedback

I tried going for rank and that demotivated me not just from ranking but also from mapping. I haven't found a reason map again. It looks like a waste of time to me, and I can be investing time in other things.

The whole mapping thing was prob more fun 10 years ago when there were less people competing for ranked space. Back then mapers actually put inside jokes and nods to members of osu! community in their maps. Heck, maps with self drawn mspaint BG gets critiqued these days for low quality.

abraker wrote:

Heck, maps with self drawn mspaint BG gets critiqued these days for low quality.

Are you specifically directing this to Monstrata's argument in beatmapsets/1182288#osu/2465008?

I don't feel like I struggle with finding a BN because my maps as they are are most likely not rankable at all. However, getting mods is the hardest thing for me. I feel like getting advice for my beatmaps while keeping the goal of the map the same (10*+ stream map or 1k pp nomod usually) is the hardest thing. I barely get advice at all, and most of the stuff I get is unspecific like "it sucks". I love getting criticized as long as I can get the criticism and change my work off of it, and most of the time, I either don't get mods or get mods that I can't change my work off of. The only good mod I have gotten was "restart, this isn't moddable".

DecayAnt wrote:

I don't feel like I struggle with finding a BN because my maps as they are are most likely not rankable at all. However, getting mods is the hardest thing for me. I feel like getting advice for my beatmaps while keeping the goal of the map the same (10*+ stream map or 1k pp nomod usually) is the hardest thing. I barely get advice at all, and most of the stuff I get is unspecific like "it sucks". I love getting criticized as long as I can get the criticism and change my work off of it, and most of the time, I either don't get mods or get mods that I can't change my work off of. The only good mod I have gotten was "restart, this isn't moddable".

well when it's 10* i don't expect modders to actually mod it

map something easy and conventional, then break boundaries and map hard stuff. you can't truly map 1k pp nomod because the thing is, even if it is 1k pp nomod, no player would be able to earn 1k pp from it without them putting in 1k attempts or so into doing that. most players earn 1k pp from farm maps with 3 mod, since they're made to be farmed. 1k pp nomod isn't made to be farmed, which is also the reason why night flowering fever hasn't had a nomod score set yet, because players could play it, but it'd require a shitton of effort, and compared to playing farm maps with mods, nff is a 290 bpm spaced stream map

you can't start mapping super hard things unless you learn the basics first. of course there are always exceptions, but when you map, experiment with yourself. if you try to make a 1k pp nomod map, you have to aim for ranked for it to award pp, and this stuff takes years to rank. mappers like hailie and uc are able to get so called pieces of garbage ranked (their maps are good tho) because they know generic mapping, so they break out of that norm by mapping movement style, and you can't properly mess up your visuals if you don't know how to create good flow and represent the music properly. in order to make hard maps, you have to map easier stuff. you can start at mapping hard 10* stuff, but you truly won't improve yourself unless you map outside your comfort zone. you can't break the rules unless you know how to properly follow them first, that type of stuff. just try mapping some 4* anime song and then get modders to mod, and then map super hard 10* stuff

haven't actually looked at your maps yet tho, just wanted to give some advice.

Webthesnail63 wrote:

frozz wrote:

Webthesnail63 wrote:

"start mapping for improvement again." WHAT THE F*CK DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?????????????????????

tldr: map, ask for feedback, repeat. thats how to improve as a mapper (and even at irl stuff)

My thinking was; map, ask for feedback, improve the map, ask for more feedback, map, feedback, so on and so forth. My main issue is that there is no sense of accomplishment for finishing a map just for experience. My logic is that if I want to spend time and effort on a project, I should finish it until the very end, i.e. ranked. It is clear that I am in the minority when it comes to my philosophy and mindset on mapping. Personally, the best way for me to improve is to attempt getting my maps ranked. Also another problem I have with mapping for fun, is that the genre of music I enjoy mapping the most is one of which very few people enjoy. So the combination of my "fun" maps never getting looked at, the double standards of which come with modding, and overall difficulty to find the correct BN's makes me extremely de-motivated to map for fun.

Again, my ideology and opinion of mapping is in the minority, that's why I've specifically come to this discussion board to explain my situation. Please realize that a lot the maps I make for fun include ones in which I need to cut the mp3, time it, re-time, and only then can I begin to map. I just don't see the point in spending so much effort just for, "experience."

Again, my ideology and opinion of mapping is in the minority, please understand.

I completely agree with this.

Gibune wrote:

As a newer mapper with about 9 months of experience now and recently (5 days ago) getting my first ranked I feel like I have a good grasp on this kind of topic. For a little intro I had only really been playing the game since two years ago and had no osu friends(to get me into mapping) and I'm also fluent in english which could change peoples experiences. I'll also kind of go through this chronologically.

the first thing getting me into mapping was Pishifat's videos as I think would be the same for a lot of people. I just thought mapping would be cool and Pishifat had one of the few mapping guides out there although some of his topics are outdated now. I mapped my first map and then joined a few discords that I found through google about osu mapping. So through that I started to talk to other mappers which helped me get a grasp of mapping although I never really talked that much about mapping (I think finding osu mapping discords is kinda hard for new mappers and probably for non-english mappers), anyways I just put my map in some mod ques and eventually it got nuked and wall modded about how bad it was. I think this could make people not want to map but I expected it. I think getting your first maps modded or given feedback on can be tough and this is probably one bit that needs to be improved somehow.

After I'm making a few maps I talk to more people about mapping and a few good mappers about mapping. I think this is something that people don't do but I understand it can be hard to just go hey can you look at my map to people you look up to. At this point in terms of getting my maps noticed, it was easier to get mods from people as just posting in mod ques was enough and through discord servers finding people to talk to and improve was easier.

now about getting my first ranked map, between here and last paragraph is like 6-7 months it takes time and maybe people get stuck there. Just saying it straight out. Bns do not ignore unranked mappers. Yes it may seem like it. I asked for bns for like 6 of my maps before I finally got one bn to say yes I'll nominate your map. Its just how it is, your map probably sucks. Sometimes the bn will say ways to improve and why they don't want to nominate (shoutout to sonnyc, he always gave feedback and reasons) but some will not and that's ok. Respect the bns and their rules and what they do, at the end of the day its volunteer work and if they don't want to nominate maps they wouldn't become bn. Sometimes people will feel like getting bns is just done through being friends and yes I won't deny that happens and personally I think it's fine but they nominate random mappers maps too. My bns for my map I had never talked to before ever. I'm pretty sure bns would even prefer unranked mappers sometimes as it makes them feel good bringing a new mapper into the ranked section.

overall I think first starting to map could be a struggle, most people hang out on discords and its not really clear where to find them. Getting mods is not a challenge, you can get a bn. I also forgot to add this somewhere. Lots and lots of people are kind and helpful, I don’t think I’ve talked to a single person who was rude and toxic towards me and my maps.

Thid is really?

Chechu1 wrote:

Thid is really?

Yes. BNs are humans after all.

it genuinely feels like I'm supposed to browse every BN daily in hopes that one of them are open. I genuinely don't understand how people even bother ranking stuff.

femboy mapper wrote:

it genuinely feels like I'm supposed to browse every BN daily in hopes that one of them are open. I genuinely don't understand how people even bother ranking stuff.

B-but you're a ranked mapper yourself..?

- Mahiro - wrote:

femboy mapper wrote:

it genuinely feels like I'm supposed to browse every BN daily in hopes that one of them are open. I genuinely don't understand how people even bother ranking stuff.

B-but you're a ranked mapper yourself..?

I only have one map ranked, and that was because people liked the map after it was used in a tournament. I didn't need to pursue BNs for it. Also it was ranked in 2017.

Honestly I was just lucky that people liked the map after it was used in a tournament, while I guess it isn't impossible for me to get another map ranked, it would take way too much effort unless I'm really lucky.

Also, by "way too much effort", I mean way too much effort than I feel should be needed to pursue BNs for getting a map ranked. idk, I don't understand how people can say getting maps ranked nowadays is actually worth it. But I guess some people manage to do it anyways.

Tournament maps sure have it easy...

- Mahiro - wrote:

femboy mapper wrote:

it genuinely feels like I'm supposed to browse every BN daily in hopes that one of them are open. I genuinely don't understand how people even bother ranking stuff.

B-but you're a ranked mapper yourself..?

if you read the whole thread you can see some ppl struggling are also ranked mappers too...?

Hi... Does a mapper of 5 years with no ranked maps get a say in this?

So I don't necessarily think I'm a new mapper?... But I still think I still don't have the best of knowledge of what makes a map easily be good enough for being ranked, let alone be more noticeable to be ranked.

Not to mention I actually also applied to the community mentorship twice but didn't get picked ...

However, that's why I feel like there should really have been a clear guide or system that should be more diverse and foolproof(probably for idiots like me that take wayyyyyyy too long to get the hang of how things work in the mapping community when they aren't presented clearly).

But aside from that, is there some social ladder that we have to climb or smth that will get us to be more well noticed in the mapping community?
Just to have our maps looked at by a BN, let alone be given a chance to be ranked by them?
is it even worth the effort to search for days and weeks months, ( years even! ) for one person in an already small pool of BNs in contrast to the number of people on the same side as me who are also trying to look for one of them?

But aside from that, since I will be leaving soon from osu in general, I feel like my opinion might not even be taken into consideration since I might not be around to even see the changes implemented. I just wish newcomers who have an interest in mapping can at least be given a fair fighting chance equally to have their maps seen, even if they arent so good at first...

a

for my story ill summerize by saying:i had bad experiences with some BN's,and alot of shittalking just because i like to map weird stuff,so i stopped caring about ranking anything for the time being,but sometimesi do feel like i can have a ranked map or two if i wanted,its just i m not sure if there is any BN who likes my weird mapping style so, yeah.

mcwc2307 wrote:

Hi... Does a mapper of 5 years with no ranked maps get a say in this?

So I don't necessarily think I'm a new mapper?... But I still think I still don't have the best of knowledge of what makes a map easily be good enough for being ranked, let alone be more noticeable to be ranked.

Not to mention I actually also applied to the community mentorship twice but didn't get picked ...

However, that's why I feel like there should really have been a clear guide or system that should be more diverse and foolproof(probably for idiots like me that take wayyyyyyy too long to get the hang of how things work in the mapping community when they aren't presented clearly).

But aside from that, is there some social ladder that we have to climb or smth that will get us to be more well noticed in the mapping community?
Just to have our maps looked at by a BN, let alone be given a chance to be ranked by them?
is it even worth the effort to search for days and weeks months, ( years even! ) for one person in an already small pool of BNs in contrast to the number of people on the same side as me who are also trying to look for one of them?

But aside from that, since I will be leaving soon from osu in general, I feel like my opinion might not even be taken into consideration since I might not be around to even see the changes implemented. I just wish newcomers who have an interest in mapping can at least be given a fair fighting chance equally to have their maps seen, even if they arent so good at first...

Mapper w/ around 7 years of experience in mapping and without a single ranked map here!

I've read through some of the posts here in this thread, and all I could say is that I'm literally in the same boat as all of you.

I had my fair share of maps that are mostly made for fun and not for rank, but I wanted to make a map that I wish could be rankable at the slightest.

I've attempted that many times, but to me it all becomes pointless when you don't have any BNs responding to you in every thread that you posted, despite the hypes you have for your map, well-known players testing it out, and the amount of mods you recieved. To me, it's very frustrating especially when it comes to making a map after map, collecting mod after mod in hopes of recieving feedback to improve your mapping.

It's like whatever I'm doing, I'm still going nowhere with whatever I'm doing, and soon enough my overall interest in mapping would have fully diminished, especially when my focus is directed outside of the game, whether it be the form of other games, or pursuing other hobbies, or having to focus on an aspect of life overall (such as school, *cough cough*).

All I can do is to hope that things change for the better in the future for struggling unranked mappers, but it's unlikely, I dunno.

newer mapper, but still get basically fuck all recognition lol

well, seems like making stuff for rank is the only option

but imo its better to do it for fun